[QUOTE=FalconKrunch;37287411]Flying Spaghetti Monster.
They might have a point but they should bring that point to the mayor of New York then, rather than resorting to vandalism.[/QUOTE]
What vandalism? You didn't read the article.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;37291821]By not putting up symbols of other faiths I think people are being excluded.[/QUOTE]
Why do we need any symbols of religious faith up at all? Why can't we just remember the people who died there with a [I]secular[/I] memorial? I think christians just do shit like this, knowing people will complain about it so they can continue their "Christianity is under attack in this nation!" bullshit in attempts to garner sympathy and attention.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;37291821]By not putting up symbols of other faiths I think people are being excluded.[/QUOTE]
And you are free to think that, but that doesn't mean that was the intention of the people who made the decision.
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;37291887]It was still the basic shape of a cross when they first discovered it, it's not like they found two separate pieces of rebar and welded them together. Also:
Stop acting like it's some big christian conspiracy to say "fuck you" to everyone who died who wasn't of the catholic faith, because that's not the case.[/QUOTE]
It is not a conspiracy, its simply intolerant to other beliefs. It is a cross that has been used by ONE RELIGION as something to worship. As in, literally THAT cross has been in a christian church and has been blessed and prayed to.
[editline]17th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;37291943]And you are free to think that, but that doesn't mean that was the intention of the people who made the decision.[/QUOTE]
It does not matter if that is their intention or not. They are being excluded now and that needs to change.
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;37291943]And you are free to think that, but that doesn't mean that was the intention of the people who made the decision.[/QUOTE]
What does intent matter at all in this case? It's still offensive, regardless.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;37291968]It is not a conspiracy, its simply intolerant to other beliefs. It is a cross that has been used by ONE RELIGION as something to worship. As in, literally THAT cross has been in a christian church and has been blessed and prayed to.
[editline]17th August 2012[/editline]
It does not matter if that is their intention or not. They are being excluded now and that needs to change.[/QUOTE]
The people who weren't christian are still being remembered. They are not being excluded just because a piece of wreckage that looks like a cross is being used as the (temporary) centerpiece of the memorial. The memorial is there to remember all the people who died, the use of a cross is not going to automatically exclude the ones who weren't christian.
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;37291943]And you are free to think that, but that doesn't mean that was the intention of the people who made the decision.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter what their "intention" was. They are saying that it represents those who died there, but the cross is a religious symbol. If their intent was to "represent" everyone who died, they should include other religious symbols then, or instead not have a religious symbol at all and use a memorial.
I'm sure the Christians wouldn't want an Islamic Crescent Moon and Star there representing everyone. So why is it that they get all defensive when we ask them to represent everyone else fully?
[editline]17th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;37292041]The people who weren't christian are still being remembered. They are not being excluded just because a piece of wreckage that looks like a cross is being used as the (temporary) centerpiece of the memorial. The memorial is there to remember all the people who died, the use of a cross is not going to automatically exclude the ones who weren't christian.[/QUOTE]
It's not just a piece of wreckage when it gets removed and taken to a church and blessed.
-snip-
I just realized that this post was quite douche-baggy. I apologize and I shall leave.
seriously how is anyone trying to act like a blessed huge fucking cross with jesus written on it is anything other than a purely christian symbol
People look to this symbol for comfort in their time of mourning. Taking it down because it represents a religion that isn't yours is just a dick move.
Like if we put up a memorial honoring all the rich people who died on the titantic, I'm sure lots of people would be pissed.
[editline]17th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Splash Attack;37292443]People look to this symbol for comfort in their time of mourning. Taking it down because it represents a religion that isn't yours is just a dick move.[/QUOTE]
There are plenty of other places that aren't a public memorial.
[editline]17th August 2012[/editline]
wear a cross around your neck, mourn while you walk!
[QUOTE=Splash Attack;37292443]People look to this symbol for comfort in their time of mourning. Taking it down because it represents a religion that isn't yours is just a dick move.[/QUOTE]
Christians look to this symbol for comfort in their time of mourning.*
[QUOTE=Splash Attack;37292443]People look to this symbol for comfort in their time of mourning. Taking it down because it represents a religion that isn't yours is just a dick move.[/QUOTE]
Well you have to take into consideration that a giant Christian symbol probably isn't very comforting for Muslims who have been effected by 9/11 when you think about the large amount of animosity that went towards them after the attacks, and when you consider that the stigma associated with them would ensure that any attempt to implement an Islamic symbol to a 9/11 memorial just like this cross would be met with massive backlash.
Hell, there was a huge shitstorm a while ago just for having a mosque too close to the new trade towers site.
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;37292592]Well you have to take into consideration that a giant Christian symbol probably isn't very comforting for Muslims who have been effected by 9/11 when you think about the large amount of animosity that went towards them after the attacks, and when you consider that the stigma associated with them would ensure that any attempt to implement an Islamic symbol to a 9/11 memorial just like this cross would be met with massive backlash.
Hell, there was a huge shitstorm a while ago just for having a mosque too close to the new trade towers site.[/QUOTE]
Not even a mosque, it was a recreational building with a mosque in it.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;37290763]You know, there's probably a cross in the wreckage of everything. It's a common shape, really.[/QUOTE]
yeh its not like the cross was built and engraved with the word "jesus" and given significant religious meaning or anything, they just found a cross in the wreckage and atheists are outraged that a girder magically bent into the shape of a cross happens to exist at ground zero
[QUOTE=Kopimi;37292675]yeh its not like the cross was built and engraved with the word "jesus" and given significant religious meaning or anything, they just found a cross in the wreckage and atheists are outraged that a girder magically bent into the shape of a cross happens to exist at ground zero[/QUOTE]
would've been more impressed by a circle imo 2/10
Surprised this hasn't been posted
[url]http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-4-2011/culture-war-update---the-dividening-of-america---american-atheists-vs--the-ground-zero-cross?xrs=share_copy[/url]
It's a piece of wreckage get over it, or find me rubble that looks like another religious symbol.
aha if they put up a Muslim symbol for a memorial there would be a fucking outrage.
So a memorial that happens to be in memory of a specific group of people now counts as intentionally excluding others? Nowhere does the memorial say or imply that christians are the [I]only[/I] people being remembered, just that they [I]are[/I] being remembered.
[QUOTE=Ardosos;37292922]So a memorial that happens to be in memory of a specific group of people now counts as intentionally excluding others? Nowhere does the memorial say or imply that christians are the [I]only[/I] people being remembered, just that they [I]are[/I] being remembered.[/QUOTE]
[b]if only one group is being remembered and included than the others are excluded[/b]
You don't fucking get it.
[QUOTE=Ataso;37292772]Surprised this hasn't been posted
[URL]http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-4-2011/culture-war-update---the-dividening-of-america---american-atheists-vs--the-ground-zero-cross?xrs=share_copy[/URL]
It's a piece of wreckage get over it, or find me rubble that looks like another religious symbol.[/QUOTE]
it's a piece of wreckage... that looks like a huge cross and was picked out over any other bit of wreckage specifically for this, was then blessed and prayed over at a church and has jesus inscribed into it....
[QUOTE=MadPro119;37292951][b]if only one group is being remembered and included than the others are excluded[/b]
You don't fucking get it.[/QUOTE]
Why don't you explain it, then? I have yet to hear any logic at all behind this mindset.
anyone that thinks atheists aren't still heavily discriminated against need only look at this thread, atheists wanting equal representation for minority religious groups and it's 'FUCKING ATHEIST ASSHOLES INTOLERANT PRICKS'
[QUOTE=Ardosos;37293012]Why don't you explain it, then? I have yet to hear any logic at all behind this mindset.[/QUOTE]
because it's on public land, and being paid for with public money.
Nobody gave a fuck when this same scrap heap was in a privately owned church.
Do you honestly think the same christians defending this would be so tolerant of a muslim symbol at the museum while there was no christian symbol? Not fucking likely. (See the mosque/recreation center controversy a few blocks from ground zero)
[QUOTE=Splash Attack;37292443]People look to this symbol for comfort in their time of mourning. Taking it down because it represents a religion that isn't yours is just a dick move.[/QUOTE]
I'm a Satanist, and I'd be pissed off if they used tax money to erect a giant pentagram as a memorial too.
We aren't pissed off because it's a Christian symbol, we're pissed off because it's a fucking religious monument in public land, and is clearly illegal.
No symbol related to religion should have been put up. A simple memorial wall or something would have been better. It could have represented everyone without including religion at all.
And another thing, the issue isn't about disrespect for other people or religion, its about the lack of representing others in ways they would have been normally. Or how they would of wished for.
I don't agree with AA on this one, but they are hardly as bad in this instance as everyone here is making them out to be.
[quote]Silverman said that the museum should either remove the cross or acknowledge everybody else who died in the tragedy in a manner equal to Christians. "We're talking about public lands, we're talking about public funds, we're talking about congressionally ordered public funds. We're talking about an 18-foot memorial, this is grossly inappropriate. We feel very strongly that this is an attempt to Christianize 9/11, to make it about Christians, even though it's not about Christians at all."[/quote]
It's not like they're just trying to remove the cross, as much as they are trying to make it level. As much as it's secular, the cross is a cross, and it was selected solely because it was a cross. That's the whole point of it becoming a monument. It's a Christian symbol monumented because of its Christian-symbol-ness, and now it's going to be placed in a public museum, with public funds, with no like monument for the other religions or lack-thereofs. I can definitely see AA's position. No one found a Star of David in the rubble and then worshiped it for years before being pushed by a rabbi to be included in a 9/11 memorial.
There are two ways that this piece can be looked at: as a memorial for those who died in 9/11, specifically the Christians, using a Christian symbol- or as a historic relic of 9/11, made historic because it was a cross. AA looks as it as the former, and not the latter. I personally see it as the latter and not the former. I think that it's clear that the Christians who pushed this is looking at it as the former as well, which is the issue. The intent is not as a secular monument for a historic 9/11, but a religiously-biased monument. I'm able to disregard this in favor of allowing the monument because of its historical worth.
We also have to remember what the cross meant at the time. It meant unity in nation, under the Christian God, and in defiance of the Muslims who attacked the WTC. We then went on a crusade and invaded 2 Islamic nations, toppling the leadership of one and maintaining a dictator in the other, hunting down Islamic extremists- both Taliban and Al Qaeda- and initiating combat in another 2 nations. The wave of mass discrimination that came against Muslims following the attack and the overall damage done to the religious relations, I don't think that it's [I]unreasonable[/I] to ask that a Christian religious symbol would be removed from the display in light of the religious antagonism on both sides, or that the religious symbol be matched by other religious symbols.
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