Tunisia attack: locals formed human shield to protect tourists - Polidicks

On the subject of religion and good (barely relevant): In our school we get these STEP guys (a Christian group) in to randomly teach crap and they always preface their beliefs surrounding fair treatment with 'because I'm Christian'. Like a guy literally said once 'because I'm Christian I believe slavery is wrong.' The way it's toned always sounds as if he thinks being Christian makes you believe in basic human rights, whereas in truth it's just not being a horrible person, religion aside. Just my 2 cents, probably in the wrong currency.

[QUOTE=sgman91;48081423]I would argue that the logical conclusions of atheism are the result of atheism in the same way that the logical conclusions of religion are the result of religion. For example, many atheists have come to the conclusion that human life doesn't hold any inherent value. This leads to things like interest in the hardcore eugenics of of the late 1800's and 1900's.[/QUOTE] I don't know any atheist with that value system. In fact, people like myself, value human life greatly as its all we have.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48081434]I don't know any atheist with that value system. In fact, people like myself, value human life greatly as its all we have.[/QUOTE] That's nice for you, well done. I mean it.

[QUOTE=Killuah;48081447]that's nice for you, well done[/QUOTE] Are you getting at something here? Someone insists all atheists by definition don't care about human life, and I disagree and your problem is with me? Okay pal.

No. No problem with that. No sarcasm. I genuinely think it's really nice that you value human life.

Snip - w/e

[QUOTE=sgman91;48081423]I would argue that the logical conclusions of atheism are the result of atheism in the same way that the logical conclusions of religion are the result of religion. For example, many atheists have come to the conclusion that human life doesn't hold any inherent value. This leads to things like interest in the hardcore eugenics of of the late 1800's and 1900's.[/QUOTE] But atheism is not a religion that you can be inspired by. It has no teachings and simply means that you don't believe in god. The logical conclusions someone makes can therefore not be the result of atheism but religions have walls of text on how you should behave in certain situations and what the point of life is and so on. The Muslim in my previous example punishes the other person because of his religion, an atheist who comes to the conclusion that human life has no inherent value doesn't do that because he is an atheist but because of something else.

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;48080884]He didn't say that at all and BDA is talking about people like spirit_breaker who think islam is "cancer" it's not even religion related sometimes, it's literally arab-hate[/QUOTE] I challenge you to show me where he posted "arab-hate." I reread all of his posts and I can't find anything even close. People who defend Islam link it with an ethnicity far more often than its critics do. I've seen it happen several times over the past three months, and it's always a person who's defending the religion who makes the first move to say that Muslims are Arabs or vice-versa. They seem desperate to make the connection so as to call their opponents racist. [QUOTE=Gwoodman;48081036]Why do you act like that every religious person is a radical brainwashed individual?[/QUOTE] And here this strawman rears its ugly head once again, the same exact one BDA sniped the thread with in the first post.

Holy shit who the fuck cares about atheism go to reddit if you wanna talk about that. How could this thread about a topic so inspiring, about the people who are MUSLIM, and do not agree with the extremist radical that was responsible for this horror, protecting people who are british, christian, and tourists? They willingly put their lives on the line yet you find that you have to talk about fucking atheism somehow because it just HAS to come up in any thread with religion. This really has almost nothing to do with religion besides the fact they are muslim, but more so to do with that people can be good even in a world of shit.

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;48080884]He didn't say that at all and BDA is talking about people like spirit_breaker who think islam is "cancer" it's not even religion related sometimes, it's literally arab-hate[/QUOTE] BDA's term 'hivemind' implied everything thinks like that mindlessly on FP, but in reality guys like Spirit_Breaker get banned by guys like BDA for being monumentally stupid.

[QUOTE=maeZtro;48081378]I am not disputing the fact that religion has a lot of good morals and people have done great things inspired by religion, I just think that if you give a religion credit for something good you should give it credit for the bad things as well. As to why I dislike religion, (I wouldn't go as far as saying i hate it) atheists can be inspired to do all the good things that a believer can but atheist can not be inspired to do all the bad things a believer can (unless they are mad). A sane Muslim who wholeheartedly believes in the qur'an or hadiths could for example kill or at least punish someone (depending on your interpretation) for apostasy.[/QUOTE] This is where the human part comes in to play. It hasn't something to do with the religion per se, it's a pretext that can be replaced (i.e. madness to quote you). If they can't interpret the text correctly, it's the individual's fault, because they chose to at the same time go against the very thing that is treasured by God, life. It's strictly forbidden to murder, because you have no right to take someone's life. On the other hand, you have the right of self-defense, since it'd kind of be like a suicide if you let yourself die, which is also forbidden. You were given life, and you must treasure it, as well as protecting others' lives. And this is what religion teaches you: not to kill and not to do bad things. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48081319]People just start making their own minds up about religion realizing that they're either going to follow gods word to the letter, as their religion says they should, or they realize that their whole life they've been capable of making moral decisions, and have been practicing making moral decisions their whole lives and god had nothing to do with them being morally good people. I'm not saying "Ban religion" or "I hate religion" so I'm kind of tired of this thread putting words in my mouth. [editline]29th June 2015[/editline] OH my bad, keep putting words in my mouth then[/QUOTE] The thing is that religion isn't all about behaviour. As I said, some people believe in certain truths that have been presented to them, and it's their choice. We must respect this in order to live in harmony.

[QUOTE=Explosions;48081574]I challenge you to show me where he posted "arab-hate." I reread all of his posts and I can't find anything even close. People who defend Islam link it with an ethnicity far more often than its critics do. I've seen it happen several times over the past three months, and it's always a person who's defending the religion who makes the first move to say that Muslims are Arabs or vice-versa. They seem desperate to make the connection so as to call their opponents racist. And here this strawman rears its ugly head once again, the same exact one BDA sniped the thread with in the first post.[/QUOTE] When you say "religious people do this and that" and call them hypocrites for not following the batshit insane parts of the books to the letter you are making stupid assumptions about religious people.

[QUOTE=Nabile13;48081618]This is where the human part comes in to play. It hasn't something to do with the religion per se, it's a pretext that can be replaced (i.e. madness to quote you). If they can't interpret the text correctly, it's the individual's fault, because they chose to at the same time go against the very thing that is treasured by God, life. It's strictly forbidden to murder, because you have no right to take someone's life. On the other hand, you have the right of self-defense, since it'd kind of be like a suicide if you let yourself die, which is also forbidden. You were given life, and you must treasure it, as well as protecting others' lives. And this is what religion teaches you: not to kill and not to do bad things.[/QUOTE] But who's to say that he is the one interpreting the text wrong and that he is doing anything wrong at all if it is the will of some omniscient benevolent being. I personally interpret some things I have read in the qur'an as if the religion condones murder in the case of apostasy. Granted, you are not supposed to take someones life, but if you tell me you can't take someones life and then say I should kill someone because of something I interpret that as an exception and that it is ok in your eyes.

[QUOTE=Rossy167;48081282]I'm confused, in most threads in FP the Islamaphobic guy is the guy (rightfully) being shat on. Also ratings.[/QUOTE] It is more that BDA is being incredibly condescending with that remark in my opinion. To quote a certain comedian and free speech advocate in my country, Hans Teeuwen, a few years ago: 'People are getting a bit too eager to prove that they are not racist. Some of them are handling it like everyone of a different race and belief are victims of the big bad Western white person. It is like they are handled like defenceless little puppies who can't stand up for themselves, and thus have to be handled as such. The thought of those people is, that these minorities need to be protected by the white man against all those conceptions that ain't all rainbows and sunshine in the world. It is actually really condescending and borderline racist to act like that, as you pretty much handling them like second-class beings who are unable to have free thoughts to stand up for themselves. And that gets in the way of actual debates, as the almighty white guy thinks he is above the minorities he claims to speak for.' And really, it is something I do see more and more happening in this age. You have those people claiming to speak for minorities they are not part of, and even worse, is when people who are part of said minorities get vilified for not agreeing with the almighty (most of the time) white, left-leaning person who claims to speak for everyone who is part of said minority. Mostly by handling the said person who is part of said minority, but disagreed, like he is a traitor to their own race, gender or belief. It just really baffles and scares me. In my eyes, those faux progressives are pretty much enacting White Man's Burden 2.0. I don't remember that my grandparents with their families were handled like anything special that had to be handled with utmost care when they came to the Netherlands in 1956. They were just being handled as normal human beings who were able to live on their own and have their own opinions. And on another note answering your question, that BDA is shit-stirring the thread in a certain direction with that remark and his behavior after that. I too, would have liked to rather talk about the selfless acts those brave Tunesians did to protect people they don't even know personally, but I guess the thread had to go this direction thanks to BDA.

[QUOTE=maeZtro;48081701]But who's to say that he is the one interpreting the text wrong and that he is doing anything wrong at all if it is the will of some omniscient benevolent being. I personally interpret some things I have read in the qur'an as if the religion condones murder in the case of apostasy. Granted, you are not supposed to take someones life, but if you tell me you can't take someones life and then say I should kill someone because of something I interpret that as an exception and that it is ok in your eyes.[/QUOTE] Maybe. Interpretation is complicated. At least, all of this isn't happening in our society, because we've adapted. And that's what matters: that we live in peace in daily life. Religion isn't a threat.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48081434]I don't know any atheist with that value system. In fact, people like myself, value human life greatly as its all we have.[/QUOTE] First of all, I said "many," not all. The key is whether a logically, and factually, convincing argument can be made based on the worldview. If a person is able to make such an argument for the non-value of human life based on the atheist worldview that is at least as strong as the argument against it, then it stands to reason that it logically flows from atheism. In the same way, if a person makes an argument for, for example, killing gay people based on Christianity, and no one can come up with a stronger argument against killing gay people based on Christianity, then it stands to reason that it logically flows from Christianity. I would argue that a much stronger argument exists against that claim than for it, and therefore the claim flows from either the person's ignorance of Christianity or in opposition to Christianity. Back to the specific idea I mentioned: atheists like Ernst Haeckel, Julian Huxley (often called "Darwin's bulldog), H.G. Wells, etc. all held to this belief throughout large portions of their life. Here's an article on the topic from very well known atheist philosopher John Gray: [url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/03/what-scares-the-new-atheists[/url]), and a quote that summerises the point I made: "There is no more reason to think science can determine human values today than there was at the time of Haeckel or Huxley. None of the divergent values that atheists have from time to time promoted has any essential connection with atheism, or with science. How could any increase in scientific knowledge validate values such as human equality and personal autonomy? The source of these values is not science. In fact, as the most widely-read atheist thinker of all time (Nietzsche) argued, these quintessential liberal values have their origins in monotheism." And here's his concluding paragraph: "Evangelical atheists at the present time are missionaries for their own values. If an earlier generation promoted the racial prejudices of their time as scientific truths, ours aims to give the illusions of contemporary liberalism a similar basis in science. It’s possible to envision different varieties of atheism developing – atheisms more like those of Freud, which didn’t replace God with a flattering image of humanity. But atheisms of this kind are unlikely to be popular. More than anything else, our unbelievers seek relief from the panic that grips them when they realise their values are rejected by much of humankind. What today’s freethinkers want is freedom from doubt, and the prevailing version of atheism is well suited to give it to them."

[QUOTE=Killuah;48081637]When you say "religious people do this and that" and call them hypocrites for not following the batshit insane parts of the books to the letter you are making stupid assumptions about religious people.[/QUOTE] Seems like a kinda funny idea to base ones search for some personal, transcendental truth about life, death, and the universe off a book so full of "batshit insane parts" to me.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;48081741]Seems like a kinda funny idea to base ones search for some personal, transcendental truth about life, death, and the universe off a book so full of "batshit insane parts" to me.[/QUOTE] Whatever floats your boat, but if that boat has 2 of every animal I'd imagine what's floating it would have to be thicker than water.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;48081741]Seems like a kinda funny idea to base ones search for some personal, transcendental truth about life, death, and the universe off a book so full of "batshit insane parts" to me.[/QUOTE] Seems kinda funny to hate fundamentalists forcing their religion on people but by making fun of peoples views you sort of kind of are forcing your views on them. Holy fuck, who GIVES a fuck, why do people have to care about other peoples personal views on how the world was created. More importantly why does any thread with religion involved in it, devolve into a shit throwing fest " my beliefs are better than yours hurr durr you have no morals/you base your beliefs off an old shoddy book!"

[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;48079323] [highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Terrible poster" - Starpluck))[/highlight][/QUOTE] Joy to the world. Now that's over.

[QUOTE=SGTSpartans;48081825]Seems kinda funny to hate fundamentalists forcing their religion on people but by making fun of peoples views you sort of kind of are forcing your views on them. Holy fuck, who GIVES a fuck, why do people have to care about other peoples personal views on how the world was created. More importantly why does any thread with religion involved in it, devolve into a shit throwing fest " my beliefs are better than yours hurr durr you have no morals/you base your beliefs off an old shoddy book!"[/QUOTE] You need to chill out. A debate once in a while doesn't hurt, and it can help settle things when done right. I don't understand why you rated me dumb for answering a question from someone else. You knew this thread turned into a debate, so why do you complain here ? Although I agree on your previous post that it shouldn't have devolved into a debate in the first place, and that's what I've been defending from the start, mind you.

They're nice people.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48080535]Sorry that my ironic jab blew your chance to make the same comment seriously. I'll wait for you to cock everything up on your own accord before replying next time.[/QUOTE] You can't say things that are profusely retarded and then hide behind them being sarcastic/ironic because that's no better than ironic shitposting. Because then you have people like spirit_breaker who show up and start shitposting unironically due to your bait. It also makes you sound like a twat proper.

[QUOTE=SGTSpartans;48081825]Seems kinda funny to hate fundamentalists forcing their religion on people but by making fun of peoples views you sort of kind of are forcing your views on them. Holy fuck, who GIVES a fuck, why do people have to care about other peoples personal views on how the world was created. More importantly why does any thread with religion involved in it, devolve into a shit throwing fest " my beliefs are better than yours hurr durr you have no morals/you base your beliefs off an old shoddy book!"[/QUOTE] poverty, lack of education, unwaranted military action and politics have done far more damage and are far better tools for extremists to use. What do you think makes people in the Northwest Pakistan area hate the US, the West and Christians more, Islam or bombs dropped undiscoverable machines piloted by people sitting thousands of kilometres away in the country starting up one of the biggest Lithium mines in the world in the neighbouring country without sharing even a single Rupy with the inhabitants of that area?

[QUOTE=Killuah;48080540][url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1472081[/url][/QUOTE] Oh man that thread makes me feel sick. I think we can all agree Facepunch is more diverse than we may originally think.

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;48079205]It's actually 100% relevant.[/QUOTE] Well I guess we can all bask in the relevance of BDA's post now that the thread has been derailed into oblivion thanks to it.

[QUOTE=_Axel;48082160]Well I guess we can all bask in the relevance of BDA's post now that the thread has been derailed into oblivion thanks to it.[/QUOTE] Derailed? Do you believe that this thread would've gone in any other way after the way the other hundreds of threads have? It's always the same topic regardless of what happens.

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;48082218]Derailed? Do you believe that this thread would've gone in any other way after the way the other hundreds of threads have? It's always the same topic regardless of what happens.[/QUOTE] I don't really see how it would have devolved into a debate like this otherwise, given that the article gives a very positive view of Tunisian Muslims. Either way, it's no excuse for deliberately stirring shit. SH is not BDA's personal hunting ground, there are people who go there to actually read interesting stuff.

[QUOTE=Swilly;48079798]When even the mods on facepunch participate in the hivemind that doesn't exist. Good job.[/QUOTE] [URL="facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1472920"]facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1472920[/URL] [URL="facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1438352"]facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1438352[/URL] [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1463706"]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1463706[/URL] [URL="facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1440499"]facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1440499[/URL] [URL="facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1460840"]facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1460840[/URL] these are just a few i found quickly. opinions are at the very least divisive if not lopsided, to say that there's not at least a considerable portion of people here that reliably say that stuff would be pretty willfully ignorant

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48079002]This does not jive with Facepunch's narrative of Muslims being violent, immoral savages, Swebo. Gonna have to have to ask you to find some more damning examples in the future.[/QUOTE] Vocal and frequently ridiculed minority = facepunch as a whole Shhh.