Borderlands 2 Writer Outs Destructoid As Corrupt In Wake Of #GamerGate - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Paramud;45893897]Video games are art like toilets are art. You can make toilet art. You can make toilets into art. You can turn art into toilets. You can take a toilet that wasn't intended to be art and say that it is art. But they aren't inherently art, they're toilets.[/QUOTE] So how do you justify whether or not someone was expressing themselves inherently in a piece of medium?

[QUOTE=Swilly;45893911]And if feminists don't want to be called feminizes maybe their foremost concern should be with stopping radical feminists who are way to extreme. (Note:I don't actually believe this, I'm mocking the rhetoric.)[/QUOTE] Unless they're not convinced that "radical feminists" are actually a problem. You see, I can say "gamers, stop being so misogynist" because I could demonstrate, if pressed, that gaming has a problem with misogyny. But I don't believe that anyone could demonstrate to me that that mean tumblr feminist who said that mean thing one time is actually a problem worthy of anybody's concern. Do you see where arguing via analogy gets you?

[QUOTE=Swilly;45893904]I hope that extends to books, movies and televison for ya.[/QUOTE] It does. Technical manuals, educational movies, and educational shows all exist, you know.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45893902]Maybe if I'm talking to a class of four-year-old children? I'm not responsible for how people misinterpret my words. If some idiot blunders into an ongoing conversation about sexism in gaming and only reads my one sentence where I said "we should fire gamers into the sun with a cannon" and walks away genuinely thinking that we should do that then that's not my fault any more than it is Jonathan Swift fault if someone skims A Modest Proposal and comes away thinking that guy was a cannibal.[/QUOTE] They are not misinterpreting your words. That's what you literally said. If I say "americans should stop being fat". Do I only mean that the americans who are fat should stop being fat or am I saying that all americans are fat and all americans should stop being fat? [QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45893902]I genuinely believe that there is a problem with misogyny in modern video game culture. If gamers don't want to be stereotyped as misogynists (which won't even happen because, again, everyone plays video games in 2014), then their foremost concern should be with fighting back against misogyny in gaming. They shouldn't be wasting their time policing "anti-gamer language" on twitter. This is patently different from a stereotype against an ethnic minority because "gamer" is an identity of free association.[/QUOTE] Yeah and if people who support gender equality don't want to be stereotyped as incoherent SJWs their foremost concern should be with fighting the incoherent SJWs within their own group before making any outside movements right? And it wouldn't help at all either, all it takes is few people and you can say "they are all this or that" according to you. [editline]5th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45893937]Unless they're not convinced that "radical feminists" are actually a problem. You see, I can say "gamers, stop being so misogynist" because I could demonstrate, if pressed, that gaming has a problem with misogyny. But I don't believe that anyone could demonstrate to me that that mean tumblr feminist who said that mean thing one time is actually a problem worthy of anybody's concern. Do you see where arguing via analogy gets you?[/QUOTE] What if someone made a compilation of mean tumblr posts by feminists and posted it on imgur and there would be ~100 of them? And he would go "see feminists are about hating men and not about equality at all"?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;45893948] What if someone made a compilation of mean tumblr posts by feminists and posted it on imgur and there would be ~100 of them? And he would go "see feminists are about hating men and not about equality at all"?[/QUOTE] But that's demonstrably not true and anyone who's familiar with modern feminism would know that, whereas the problem with sexism in video games extends far, far beyond some violent twitter messages; it extends into the general representation of women in games media and the under-representation of women as developers in the industry. Your analogy isn't any good because it's not equitable. Your comparison doesn't hold water.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45893997]But that's demonstrably not true and anyone who's familiar with modern feminism would know that, whereas the problem with sexism in video games extends far, far beyond some violent twitter messages; it extends into the general representation of women in games media and the under-representation of women as developers in the industry. Your analogy isn't any good because it's not equitable. Your comparison doesn't hold water.[/QUOTE] And everyone who's familiar with internet can fucking tell that not everyone who plays video games is a misogynist, you dork. And don't fucking tell me you think it's okay to judge everyone who plays video games based on what game devs are doing now. You are taking the stupid to another level. Not only you think it's okay to judge millions of people based on actions of few of them but now you can judge millions of people based on actions of few FROM ANOTHER GROUP. [editline]5th September 2014[/editline] Look at the latest big movie releases, vast majority of the movies are about white people, and majority of those are about white male people. I guess everyone who watches movies is a racist and a misogynist.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45893817]Yes. I agree. But I think people should pick their battles, and I think that "gamer" is the absolute worst battle of them all.[/QUOTE] I was starting to think you were just irrationally pissed over the massive amount of harassment that people have been getting, and that maybe, you're not all that bad after all. But no. Absolutely not, your attitude hasn't changed one fucking bit from when you were banned for shitposting in that other thread, calling all those who were interested in the topic neckbeards. Your ego has reached critical mass, you literally just admitted that you like shitting on people who consider themselves gamers simply because you can and carry no consequences from it. You might just be the most hypocritical fucking moron to ever grace this forum and one of the worst shitposters to boot.

His comparison holds water when these are part of one side that has a lot more influence in the general image of the base they represent insulting and attacking that base by which they report to. His comparisons hold water when a majority of gamers have been asking for diversity and insulted and berated Ubisoft because of that whole debacle about 'women are too hard to create'. You're only focusing on the small little vocal minority instead of focusing on the wider majority who want the changes, who want to be represented. Add onto the fact that the person arguing and trying to create this change makes good points but is not only unequipped to explain what the basic tenants of feminist theory are to the uneducated but actually only preaches to the choir. Anita's points are good but her examples suck, her understanding sucks and her arguments are usually lacking with just the implied ending of, 'its obvious' and instead of focusing her energy and time on the actual root of where these problems start, IE peers, schools, education and parents, she attacks an industry instead. Attacking a big numberless mass is really fucking easy, because it shifts blame away from the people and onto the media. This is not to say that the media doesn't play a role in creating social norms but it definitely is still and always will be a mirror. She blames people who have no control over what actually happens in places like politics or the every day to day life. She wastes her efforts blaming Hollywood, the Videogame industry and writers without even having the understanding difference between episodic and serialized TV shows or Open World and Linear videogames. She doesn't understand the medium so her critiques come up as shallow. But we need this critique, we need someone to challenge the writers and designers to make it more inclusive. [editline]4th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Paramud;45893940]It does. Technical manuals, educational movies, and educational shows all exist, you know.[/QUOTE] Also, you're an asshole.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;45893649]It's a pointless buzzword that doesn't actually tell you anything. Half the population plays games regularly. Until you start breaking it down to specific subsets like competitive gamers, mobile gamers, strategy gamers, there is no way to derive any shared cultural identity from the word "gamer".[/QUOTE] There is no unified gaming culture. Still, gamer is a term that means something. Somebody who plays and enjoys videogames regularily. When feminists demonize gamers and try to act like they're all misogynistic and racist white men is insulting. Gaming is diverse and gamer applies to alot of different people because of that. The term applies to so many people because the basement dweller stereotype is not true.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;45894048] Look at the latest big movie releases, vast majority of the movies are about white people, and majority of those are about white male people. I guess everyone who watches movies is a racist and a misogynist.[/QUOTE] Well everyone could use their agency as consumers to try and change things. They could [I]not[/I] pay to go see yet another sexist, racist Michael Bay movie. I'm not saying that moviegoers are all secretly KKK sympathizers for letting Michael Bay make another billion goddamn dollars but they are still participating in that system. AAA game studios only sell the kinds of games that people buy. If nobody bought Foreigner Shooter Pro starring Whiteguy McFiveoClockShadow then they would stop making games like that but people do buy games like that so they keep getting made. That kind of vaguely happened when slightly-fewer-than-expected people bought CoD:Ghosts and Watch Dogs but it's obviously not enough. You can be a perfectly tolerant, unprejudiced person but still play a role in a larger system which has discriminatory consequences.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45894135]Well everyone could use their agency as consumers to try and change things. They could [i]not[/i] pay to go see yet another sexist, racist Michael Bay movie. I'm not saying that moviegoers are all secretly KKK sympathizers for letting Michael Bay make another billion goddamn dollars but they are still participating in that system. AAA game studios only sell the kinds of games that people buy. If nobody bought Foreigner Shooter Pro starring Whiteguy McFiveoClockShadow then they would stop making games like that but people do buy games like that so they keep getting made. You can be a perfectly tolerant, unprejudiced person but still play a role in a larger system which has discriminatory consequences.[/QUOTE] Then its their job, as moveigoers to fix that but no one is calling them out on it. You can't sit there and let some biases just because they fit a narrative you refuse to refute or challenge.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;45894132]There is no unified gaming culture. Still, gamer is a term that means something. Somebody who plays and enjoys videogames regularily. When feminists demonize gamers and try to act like they're all misogynistic and racist white men is insulting. Gaming is diverse and gamer applies to alot of different people because of that. The term applies to so many people because the basement dweller stereotype is not true.[/QUOTE] if someone's using gamer in that light they're probably only talking about those that fit the stereotype regardless only the fringe really do that sincerely

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;45894148]if someone's using gamer in that light they're probably only talking about those that fit the stereotype regardless only the fringe really do that sincerely[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure we actually use it very sincerely until people started using it to insult everyone with the CoD players who get way to angry and thats when people started to shy away. It changed its definition over time but many still use it. Relegating it or insulting the term because you feel its not worthy doesn't make it suddenly not worthy. [editline]4th September 2014[/editline] Just like redefining it for political means will get you nowhere.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45894135]Well everyone could use their agency as consumers to try and change things. They could [i]not[/i] pay to go see yet another sexist, racist Michael Bay movie. I'm not saying that moviegoers are all secretly KKK sympathizers for letting Michael Bay make another billion goddamn dollars but they are still participating in that system. AAA game studios only sell the kinds of games that people buy. If nobody bought Foreigner Shooter Pro starring Whiteguy McFiveoClockShadow then they would stop making games like that but people do buy games like that so they keep getting made. You can be a perfectly tolerant, unprejudiced person but still play a role in a larger system which has discriminatory consequences.[/QUOTE] You are shitfting the point from most movies have a white male protagonist to some bay fuckface. I have just demonstrated to you that there is an underrepresentation of females as leading actors and underrepresentation of female oriented stories. Also I can probably find some misogynistic tweets/posts from someone who watches movies. According to your standards that's enough to call everyone who watches movies a misogynist.

[QUOTE=Swilly;45894145]Then its their job, as moveigoers to fix that but no one is calling them out on it.[/QUOTE] I'm calling them out on it right now? [QUOTE=Swilly;45894145] You can't sit there and let some biases just because they fit a narrative you refuse to refute or challenge.[/QUOTE] What?

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45894171]I'm calling them out on it right now? What?[/QUOTE] No, you're not calling them out. You're throwing it aside as a dismissal of the argument.

[QUOTE=Swilly;45894162]I'm pretty sure we actually use it very sincerely until people started using it to insult everyone with the CoD players who get way to angry and thats when people started to shy away. It changed its definition over time but many still use it. Relegating it or insulting the term because you feel its not worthy doesn't make it suddenly not worthy. [editline]4th September 2014[/editline] Just like redefining it for political means will get you nowhere.[/QUOTE] I think it just changed as video games became wider spread. When it was a fringe hobby it made sense to tie everyone together despite differences. Now, instead of asking people if they're a gamer I ask them what kind of games they play. And people like my girlfriend who play games much more casually wouldn't call themselves gamers at all so something's wrong if we're trying to have the most inclusive definition of the word but a large majority of who we're trying to apply it to don't even agree.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;45894148]if someone's using gamer in that light they're probably only talking about those that fit the stereotype regardless only the fringe really do that sincerely[/QUOTE] Just like we can say "feminists are retards and are totally not about equality" when some extremist idiot who calls themselves a feminist does something retarded right? The one who's making a statement is the one responsible for specifying what he means, not the one who's reading it. You can't say the name of a larger group and then go "nonono I only mean some particular people from that group not everyone, stop misinterpreting what I said".

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;45894170]You are shitfting the point from most movies have a white male protagonist to some bay fuckface. I have just demonstrated to you that there is an underrepresentation of females as leading actors and underrepresentation of female oriented stories. Also I can probably find some misogynistic tweets/posts from someone who watches movies. According to your standards that's enough to call everyone who watches movies a misogynist.[/QUOTE] This is literally the opposite of what I said. What I am saying is that AAA studios sell the video games that people are willing to buy. If almost every AAA video game stars identical gravely voiced white men, then that is because people like to, or grudgingly will, buy video games starring identical gravely voiced white men. If gamers want to see more good female characters in their games, then they need to buy more games with good female characters and stop buying cookie-cutter Call of Duty games. Ultimately, gamers get the video games that they desire.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;45894193]I think it just changed as video games became wider spread. When it was a fringe hobby it made sense to tie everyone together despite differences.[/QUOTE] That's true, but there's still a welcoming core audience who likes most if not all genres. I think one of the biggest problems is that this whole audience grew up with the internet, and like opinions in general on the internet. They became very echo chambered, combine the fact that the Mainstream media and politicians continually made potshots and games were formed by a backbone of victims of harassment and bullying, they became very closed off. You'll always have a hardnut shell, its always been there and its not going to go anywhere, especially when you use debate fallacies like hasty generalizations and insults.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;45894193]I think it just changed as video games became wider spread. When it was a fringe hobby it made sense to tie everyone together despite differences. Now, instead of asking people if they're a gamer I ask them what kind of games they play.[/QUOTE] Gaming community was a lot smaller and tighter back then, hence the word gamer was created, it was specific. It meant "someone who plays video games". The group is no longer that small and tight, but the word still means the same exact thing. It's just not as specific as it used to be but the definition didn't change.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;45894216]Gaming community was a lot smaller and tighter back then, hence the word gamer was created, it was specific. It meant "someone who plays video games". The group is no longer that small and tight, but the word still means the same exact thing. It's just not as specific as it used to be but the definition didn't change.[/QUOTE] (check my edit) you're applying the word to a group of people who don't consider themselves to be "gamers" and that's where the problem lies, it's an invented culture designation for a culture that has splintered.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45894200]This is literally the opposite of what I said. What I am saying is that AAA studios sell the video games that people are willing to buy. If almost every AAA video game stars identical gravely voiced white men, then that is because people like to, or grudgingly will, buy video games starring identical gravely voiced white men. If gamers want to see more good female characters in their games, then they need to buy more games with good female characters and stop buying cookie-cutter Call of Duty games. Ultimately, gamers get the video games that they desire.[/QUOTE] People are asking for more well written female characters and praise the games that have them. Do you really think that unless people stop buying games with male protagonists till male/female ratio is 50/50 it's okay to say that all gamers are misogynists?

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;45894237](check my edit) you're applying the word to a group of people who don't consider themselves to be "gamers" and that's where the problem lies, it's an invented culture designation for a culture that has splintered.[/QUOTE] The problem is that there are still a lot of people who accept that cultural designation just like those who accept the nerd one are, rightly, pissed off at the way its portrayed in the media through TV shows or used as insults. Just in general, generalization of any sizable group is a bad way to go, it oversimplifies the issues and generally leave the discussion at nothing more than an insult match after that.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;45894237](check my edit) you're applying the word to a group of people who don't consider themselves to be "gamers" and that's where the problem lies, it's an invented culture designation for a culture that has splintered.[/QUOTE] Many people who play video games don't want to call themselves gamers the same way some people who advocate equal rights don't want to call themselves feminists. They don't want to be stereotyped, in case of gamers, as a member of fat neckbeard club. And you are contributing to that stereotype. Stop it. Gamer means nothing more than someone who plays video games. You want to describe fat neckbeards who take games way too seriously? Use another word, "gamer" is already taken.

That's my issue with the use of it from Sigma and others, I don't care what your personal opinions are but if you're going to generalize you're just as bad as someone who generalizes gay people in my book.

[QUOTE=Swilly;45894277]That's my issue with the use of it from Sigma and others, I don't care what your personal opinions are but if you're going to generalize you're just as bad as someone who generalizes gay people in my book.[/QUOTE] He's gonna have a go at you now for comparing social situation of gays and gamers now.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;45894273]And you are contributing to that stereotype.[/QUOTE] how

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;45894286]He's gonna have a go at you now for comparing social situation of gays and gamers now.[/QUOTE] I don't fucking care. The rhetoric is the fucking same.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;45894288]how[/QUOTE] By saying that "gamer" isn't just someone who plays video games. You are changing the definition of the word.