Federal trial begins Monday for Kansas church that protests military funerals - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;23462301]Yelling FIRE isn't free speech because it incites panic and could cause a riot/whatever to break out. You really are bad at analogies. And you keep bringing up the emotional aspect, our entire justice system is based around the fact that human emotions are fallible and reactionary, and not a proper judge of a situation. Yes, i'm sure it angers the family, and possibly hurts them emotionally, but it causes them no physical harm and it doesn't infringe on their rights, so we shouldn't infringe on the WBC's rights. They're a horrible organization, that's for sure, but they have a right to say what they want to say in the form they use to say it. Unless they hurt someone or otherwise cause a 3rd party harm, then fuck em and throw em in jail.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_infliction_of_emotional_distress[/url] call our supreme courts, that law needs to be striked down. Protesting a funeral full of grieving people can incite a panic or a riot, as well. You're speaking rights of WBC, where are the dead soldier's rights? Or the family's rights? Their freedom of privacy is being violated hard.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462260]anecdote evidence don't count here, boss. [/Quote] You were saying how physical harm doesn't cause a scar that's deeper than skin, everyone knows this is wrong, this is why PTSD exists. [QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462260]not to mention, protesting means you want something achieved, i.e, you protest wal-mart cause they do predatory low prices and shut down small businesses protesting a funeral doesn't do shit other cause grievance, it's harassment and an invasion of privacy [/quote] They want these people to know their message and their words, and they are obviously very good at this part of their protesting. They also want people to follow them, they are not so good with this bit. It is in no way harassment or the invasion of privacy, seeing as they do not follow these people around or enter into private property, they protest in visible public places. There is no reason for this to be illegal. [QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462260]You guys always support whatever makes you more 'free', but you don't care about the repercussions or the consequences of it happening, it's more or less always, dur more freedom more freedom.[/quote] Because the opposite is far worse, a little inconvenience beats the restriction of speech any day. [QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462260]And i ain't using strawmen evidence, sorry. you're in favor of an extreme demonstration of first amendment, I'm in favor or an extreme demonstration of second amendment, simple as that.[/QUOTE] You're using a false analogy and attacking arguments I am not making, I am in no way arguing against your right to bear arms, but arguing for the continued right of people to protest freely.

Free Speech is good until it promotes hatred and violence. Protesting a funeral is undeniably an act of hatred. Otherwise any terrorists organization could put up posters everywhere and nobody would be allowed to take them down.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462344][URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_infliction_of_emotional_distress[/URL] call our supreme courts, that law needs to be striked down. Protesting a funeral full of grieving people can incite a panic or a riot, as well. You're speaking rights of WBC, where are the dead soldier's rights? Or the family's rights? Their freedom of privacy is being violated hard.[/QUOTE] "[B]Intentional infliction of emotional distress[/B] ([B]IIED[/B]) is a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort"]tort[/URL] claim of recent origin for intentional conduct that results in extreme emotional distress" "[B]Tort[/B] is the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language"]French[/URL] word for a "wrong." A tort is a non-contractual, non-criminal wrongdoing." "The IIED was created in tort law to address a problem that would arise when applying the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law"]common law[/URL] form of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault"]assault[/URL]. " :downs: Not a law, just a civil charge. And I mean directly inciting a panic/riot, if the WBC incites a riot it's the rioter's fault

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462344][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_infliction_of_emotional_distress[/url] call our supreme courts, that law needs to be striked down. Protesting a funeral full of grieving people can incite a panic or a riot, as well. You're speaking rights of WBC, where are the dead soldier's rights? Or the family's rights? Their freedom of privacy is being violated hard.[/QUOTE] Show me where you have the right to not get your feelings hurt.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462344][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_infliction_of_emotional_distress[/url] call our supreme courts, that law needs to be striked down. Protesting a funeral full of grieving people can incite a panic or a riot, as well. You're speaking rights of WBC, where are the dead soldier's rights? Or the family's rights? Their freedom of privacy is being violated hard.[/QUOTE] Where is their freedom of privacy being violated? These funerals are publicly known, they protest on public ground and do not follow these people home. And it isn't intentionally causing emotional distress, they are voicing their views on what is going to happen to their immortal souls. They in no way are inciting a riot purposefully. The mere potential for violence is not enough to censure.

[QUOTE=zombojoe;23462347]Free Speech is good until it promotes hatred and violence. Protesting a funeral is undeniably an act of hatred. Otherwise any terrorists organization could put up posters everywhere and nobody would be allowed to take them down.[/QUOTE] "Kill the fags" signs = illegal "God hates fags" signs = legal There's a fine line but the line exists.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462344][URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_infliction_of_emotional_distress[/URL] call our supreme courts, that law needs to be striked down. Protesting a funeral full of grieving people can incite a panic or a riot, as well. You're speaking rights of WBC, where are the dead soldier's rights? Or the family's rights? Their freedom of privacy is being violated hard.[/QUOTE] That tort cant be applied as they are not intentionally inflicting emotional pain. These people honestly believe what they are saying is true. They arent doing this just to troll the families.

[QUOTE=Kagrenak;23462345]You were saying how physical harm doesn't cause a scar that's deeper than skin, everyone knows this is wrong, this is why PTSD exists. They want these people to know their message and their words, and they are obviously very good at this part of their protesting. They also want people to follow them, they are not so good with this bit. It is in no way harassment or the invasion of privacy, seeing as they do not follow these people around or enter into private property, they protest in visible public places. There is no reason for this to be illegal. Because the opposite is far worse, a little inconvenience beats the restriction of speech any day. You're using a false analogy and attacking arguments I am not making, I am in no way arguing against your right to bear arms, but arguing for the continued right of people to protest freely.[/QUOTE] they're directly protesting a funeral of deceased with the family wanting to be left alone, what meaning of freedom of privacy violation do you not get. and my 'analogies' and 'attacking arguments', are extreme comparisons of extreme demonstrations of first/second amendment. you can't have one without the other. and are you saying the families [b]won't[/b] get PTSD's from being surrounded by morons saying their dead son will burn in hell? And as well, this thread has given me an quite an insight. I shall now protest my neighbor by camping in the public sidewalk then vigorously swearing, screaming, and yelling at him 24/7. As long I am in one spot in a visible public place, this is a protest that should be protected. [editline]05:50AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Timebomb757;23462399]That tort cant be applied as they are not intentionally inflicting emotional pain. These people honestly believe what they are saying is true. They arent doing this just to troll the families.[/QUOTE] i'll pull my opposing side's cards and say this is a matter of opinion. they're protesting a comic-con. they're trolling cuz they want attention, bro.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462410] And as well, this thread has given me an quite an insight. I shall now protest my neighbor by camping in the public sidewalk then vigorously swearing, screaming, and yelling at him 24/7. As long I am in one spot in a visible public place, [B]this is a protest that should be protected[/B].[/QUOTE] It sure is. Everyone will think you are an asshole and hate you for it, but yeah, totally legal if you do it without threatening or harming him.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462410]they're directly protesting a funeral of deceased with the family wanting to be left alone, what meaning of freedom of privacy violation do you not get.[/quote] This hypothetical family is in public, in public you have no expectation of privacy, try harder next time. [QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462410]and my 'analogies' and 'attacking arguments', are extreme comparisons of extreme demonstrations of first/second amendment. you can't have one without the other. [/quote] Ignoring the fact that I said you might as well burn the antiquated constitution. Again, we aren't arguing about those things, if you cannot address my main argument, don't ague. [QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462410] and are you saying the families [b]won't[/b] get PTSD's from being surrounded by morons saying their dead son will burn in hell? [/quote] Yes. [QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462410] And as well, this thread has given me an quite an insight. I shall now protest my neighbor by camping in the public sidewalk then vigorously swearing, screaming, and yelling at him 24/7. As long I am in one spot in a visible public place, this is a protest that should be protected.[/QUOTE] It would be legal until the night where then you would have to abide by local noise ordinances and zoning laws on your lit up signs. But if you followed these things which don't actually restrict your speech, then yes, you can do that if you wish.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462410]they're directly protesting a funeral of deceased with the family wanting to be left alone, what meaning of freedom of privacy violation do you not get. and my 'analogies' and 'attacking arguments', are extreme comparisons of extreme demonstrations of first/second amendment. you can't have one without the other. [B]and are you saying the families won't get PTSD's from being surrounded by morons saying their dead son will burn in hell? [/B] And as well, this thread has given me an quite an insight. I shall now protest my neighbor by camping in the public sidewalk then vigorously swearing, screaming, and yelling at him 24/7. As long I am in one spot in a visible public place, this is a protest that should be protected. [editline]05:50AM[/editline] i'll pull my opposing side's cards and say this is a matter of opinion. they're protesting a comic-con. they're trolling cuz they want attention, bro.[/QUOTE] No? You get PTSD from war or rape or murder or something, not from some jackasses protesting. And that protest would be allowed, barring the violent invective and swearing. It's true, various groups like animal rights activists and other wackos have protested in front of people's houses for reasons they saw fit.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462410]they're directly protesting a funeral of deceased with the family wanting to be left alone, what meaning of freedom of privacy violation do you not get. [/QUOTE] The right to privacy only exists if there is a reasonable expectation of privacy. If you're in a public place, you can't reasonably expect privacy. If you want a private funeral so bad, do it somewhere that just anyone can't go to.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462410] i'll pull my opposing side's cards and say this is a matter of opinion. they're protesting a comic-con. they're trolling cuz they want attention, bro. [/QUOTE] Then they are doing it under the guise of actual belief. And unless you can find out some way to prove weather or not they actually believe what the are saying by reading their minds, then their grievances are legally allowed to be announced.

[QUOTE=Kagrenak;23462445]This hypothetical family is in public, in public you have no expectation of privacy, try harder next time. Ignoring the fact that I said you might as well burn the antiquated constitution. Again, we aren't arguing about those things, if you cannot address my main argument, don't ague. Yes. It would be legal until the night where then you would have to abide by local noise ordinances and zoning laws on your lit up signs.[/QUOTE] lol, and if it's private funeral? you try your hardest. nice job avoiding a legit argument. are you a doctor why should i abide my local noise ordinance? that's a fucking fascist law by itself, i live in a free country damn you, i should able to scream like a gorilla whenever i want.

[QUOTE=Heartboy;23461665]He didn't fight actually, he just enlisted for the $$$[/QUOTE] Who fucking cares, the military is the military and they are paid to defend this country and it's endeavors.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462483]lol, and if it's private funeral? you try your hardest.[/quote] Then they're still in a public place, if they trespass to protest, they have no rights to protest at this point, and should be arrested. [QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462483]nice job avoiding a legit argument.[/quote] I don't give a fuck about the constitution, it can burn for all I care. [QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462483]are you a doctor[/quote] Not yet, I plan to do an MD/PhD in Immunology/Biotechnology, though. [QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462483]why should i abide my local noise ordinance? that's a fucking fascist law by itself, i live in a free country damn you, i should able to scream like a gorilla whenever i want.[/QUOTE] Because it causes an undue amount of stress to people who aren't the target of the protest, and does not limit your ability to deliver your message in any way. The law in question in the suit, does, however completely nullify their ability to promote their message.

Lets turn this situation around, remember the "[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone"]Free Speech Zones[/URL]" during the Bush administration? The ones that limited where political protesters could do their protesting to some absurd small location? If you don't support those, but support this, you're a hypocrite. If you support both, you're against freedom of assembly.

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;23462553]Lets turn this situation around, remember the "[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone"]Free Speech Zones[/URL]" during the Bush administration? The ones that limited where political protesters could do their protesting to some absurd small location? If you don't support those, but support this, you're a hypocrite. If you support both, you're against freedom of assembly.[/QUOTE] That was the worst idea ever, and it's like they went with the most Orwellian sounding name they could think of.

[QUOTE=Kagrenak;23462524]Then they're still in a public place, if they trespass to protest, they have no rights to protest at this point, and should be arrested. I don't give a fuck about the constitution, it can burn for all I care. Not yet, I plan to do an MD/PhD in Immunology/Biotechnology, though. Because it causes an undue amount of stress to people who aren't the target of the protest, and does not limit your ability to deliver your message in any way. The law in question in the suit, does, however completely nullify their ability to promote their message.[/QUOTE] Nope too bad, they're behind the private funeral, their freedom of privacy is getting raped. Why are you so anti-american Ok Fuck their stress, if stress of deceased's loved ones can be discarded for freedom of speech, this can too. You need better arguments, I think I am currently winning this debate, do not fret, you are a good opponent.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462571]Nope too bad, they're behind the private funeral, their freedom of privacy is getting raped.[/quote] This isn't a thing. If the church doors are open, they still have no expectation to be shielded from street noise. [QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462571] Why are you so anti-american [/quote] Because I just don't give a fuck. [QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462571] Fuck their stress, if stress of deceased's loved ones can be discarded for freedom of speech, this can too. You need better arguments, I think I am currently winning this debate, do not fret, you are a good opponent.[/QUOTE] There's a key difference in the fact that this law impacts the giving of their protest, and local noise ordinances do not. You have completely failed to address the point that this law restricts them from protesting completely, it doesn't just place limits on it.

[QUOTE=Kagrenak;23462605]This isn't a thing. If the church doors are open, they still have no expectation to be shielded from street noise.[/QUOTE] church doors are closed, but noise keeps getting in! Privacy still invaded, perhaps it can be prevented if they protest after everyone's gone? [QUOTE=Kagrenak;23462605] Because I just don't give a fuck.[/QUOTE] please give a fuck [QUOTE=Kagrenak;23462605] There's a key difference in the fact that this law impacts the giving of their protest, and local noise ordinances do not. You have completely failed to address the point that this law restricts them from protesting completely, it doesn't just place limits on it.[/QUOTE] yes it does, it's depriving me of my right to call my neighbor a douchebag at night.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462571]Nope too bad, they're behind the private funeral, their freedom of privacy is getting raped. Why are you so anti-american Ok Fuck their stress, if stress of deceased's loved ones can be discarded for freedom of speech, this can too. You need better arguments, I think I am currently winning this debate, do not fret, you are a good opponent.[/QUOTE] The property on which the funeral is taking place my be private, but the areas surrounding it are public domain, and they are free to protest there. As for noise ordinances, they are declared unconstitutional on certain occasions actually. You can go ahead and protest it if you want, you would probably have a pretty strong argument. Its just that no one bothers to protest the ordinance because most people dont feel the need to violate it.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462647]church doors are closed, but noise keeps getting in! Privacy still invaded, perhaps it can be prevented if they protest after everyone's gone? please give a fuck yes it does, it's depriving me of my right to call my neighbor a douchebag at night.[/QUOTE] No it doesn't, you can protest in silence easily, just tout around a sign. And address my point you damned hypocrite

[QUOTE=Timebomb757;23462665] As for noise ordinances, they are declared unconstitutional on certain occasions actually. You can go ahead and protest it if you want, you would probably have a pretty strong argument. Its just that no one bothers to protest the ordinance because most people dont feel the need to violate it.[/QUOTE] [img]http://www.warhammerkorea.com/zbxe/files/attach/images/73538/658/434/avitus.jpg[/img] [b]"Now you're speaking sense."[/b] I should protest my neighbor right now, and it's pretty night time-ish over here.

I find that they, yes, have the right to protest. Rant Warning. Mom, cover the kids ears. I do not, however, agree that they should be protesting the men and women who are dying so some ungrateful bastard can go outside their funeral and say "hurr durr god hatez u fagsorz durr hurr". It makes their religion look bad, and it makes our country look bad. theyu are watching their friends, and maybe even relatives, die and then be bad-mouthed. They get no respect in life, and even less in death. It's disgusting, sickening, and just pain assonine. These people deserve to be thrown a gun, helmet, and a first class ticket to the front lines of Iraq. Then they might get a good, warm, fag-hating welcome. They have misinterpreted their religion, as it says they should tolerate the beliefs of others. Not agree, but tolerate. God accepts the fags like he accepts anyone else. My uncle has been to Iraq and Afghanistan multiple times. If he were to get shot and killed, I would prevent the WBC from excersizing their First Amendment because they have no right to use it in that way. They need to be shut down, and stripped of everything. They have bastardized their religion, their rights, and the people fighting so they can be free in the last free country on planet Earth. tl;dr: WBC = bastards Now that I have derailed the thread with my rant, resume your discussion. Thanks for reading.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462647]church doors are closed, but noise keeps getting in! Privacy still invaded, perhaps it can be prevented if they protest after everyone's gone? [/quote] Then they aren't protesting at all. Good work, you've instituted state censuring. [quote] please give a fuck [/quote] I do, but not about arbitrary documents written 200+ years ago. [QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462647] yes it does, it's depriving me of my right to call my neighbor a douchebag at night.[/QUOTE] You can still yell to a reasonable level and have lit up signs. You can still give your message in the day. With this law, it completely deprives WBC or other interest groups from delivering their message at all. [editline]02:13AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Timebomb757;23462665]The property on which the funeral is taking place my be private, but the areas surrounding it are public domain, and they are free to protest there. As for noise ordinances, they are declared unconstitutional on certain occasions actually. You can go ahead and protest it if you want, you would probably have a pretty strong argument. Its just that no one bothers to protest the ordinance because most people dont feel the need to violate it.[/QUOTE] Ah, I didn't know this, I was arguing on the premise that they didn't actually violate his right to protest.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23462690] [B]"Now you're speaking sense."[/B] I should protest my neighbor right now, and it's pretty night time-ish over here.[/QUOTE] "Sorry, you cant protest the ordinance right now because you would be violating our lawmakers privacy, you can come by after they all leave city hall though and protest, that's fine" See the problem here?

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;23462685]No it doesn't, you can protest in silence easily, just tout around a sign. And address my point you damned hypocrite[/QUOTE] whoa, calm down sir, i'll get your unimportant issue right now [quote]Lets turn this situation around, remember the "Free Speech Zones" during the Bush administration? The ones that limited where political protesters could do their protesting to some absurd small location? If you don't support those, but support this, you're a hypocrite. If you support both, you're against freedom of assembly.[/quote] they're protesting the government, which is a right by the constitution because thomas jefferson intended for it to happen all the time because the government to adhere to the people, with no one getting hurt in the process you're hurting people by protesting their dead one's funerals, sir. and dont call names please, this is a civil debate.

All the WBC is trying to do is to let the public know that "God in bible times would punish people as a nation for something they did wrong. So they are saying soldiers are being killed in Iraq, because America has accepted the homosexual agenda and God is punishing us this way." They want to be heard and are doing a great job at it. I agree with Zeke, Timebomb, Kagrenak, PvtCupcakes, and JDK. They are doing nothing wrong even if it hurts their feelings. The world is an ugly place. People will always have conflicting views. They shouldn't be arrested, they should win.