Two Weeks Ago - The United States And Possibly The World Narrowly Escaped Solar Flare That Would Of - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Cows Rule;41668159]There's a part of me that is eager for a quiet planet wide disaster, (nothing overly violent, just something like mass power outage like this) but also afraid because as said above, we've kind of come to far to safely go back.[/QUOTE] As someone who's gone through a week of blackout after a hurricane, it is no fun and I would never wish it upon anybody. There are so many things you take for granted about your daily life that use electricity. Everything shuts down, nothing is safe. It becomes one of those weird cases where the older your house and appliances are, the better off you'll be. Cooking becomes a lot harder. No more microwave or toasters. No ovens or stoves unless you have a gas powered one. Coal and gas grills will be a life saver. [I]No refrigeration[/I]. The food you had before the blackout is going to go bad within a week. This is why for hurricanes they stress on buying non-perishable foods so much. The water isn't safe anymore. When the power goes out, so do the water treatment plants. Running water will usually still work, but it's going to be contaminated with who knows what. You can't take a shower with peace of mind, and by the way that shower will be cold. You can't wash your hands or brush your teeth without knowing that you're coming out cleaner than when you started. No more lights at night time. I know this sounds like an obvious thing, but it gets [I]dark[/I] at night. Normally when you turn the lights off on your house, there's still ambient light from streetlights, other houses, etc. No more. When it becomes night time, there are no sources of light other than the moon. This is not a good feeling. Not a good feeling at all. No more cell phones or cell phone service. The only telecommunications were radio stations running on backup power, and old-land line telephones. Depending on where you live, AC and central heating are now gone. For us (Florida) having no AC in hot and humid summer is murder. There's nowhere to escape the heat, and it makes sleeping at night absolutely miserable. Transportation is severely limited. No more traffic lights or street lights. Every intersection becomes a slow 4 way stop. The huge majority of gas stations can't pump gas anymore. Whatever you had in your tank before the blackout is all you've got. Spend it wisely. Some gas stations re-open up quickly with backup power, but expect to wait for hours and hours on end if you want to get gas. Those are just a few of the things that I remember from that whole ordeal. That was only a week, and believe me there's a lot more to it than that. Blackouts are not a "quiet" disaster. They bring life as we know it to a halt, and I don't even want to think about what happens to hospitals, doctors offices, and other emergency services. This was only a "normal" blackout too, not an EMP that would physically destroy much of the infrastructure beyond just power lines. Were that some kind of EMP attack, even some of the stuff I mentioned that still worked wouldn't work anymore.

[QUOTE=KorJax;41668445]The article makes it sound like all that's needed is that they just have to make the transformers EMP-proof to protect it. I thought EMP's pretty much fried any and all electrical circuts? Saving a transformer from getting fried would do little in the end then. Having powerlines protected against EMP isn't going to be very helpful when your cars, devices, simple circuts (such as elevator operation), airplanes, boats, lighting, hospitals, radios, refrigeration, AC, heating, etc are all completely toast too. So the power lines still work but everything that uses that power is dead, and the things that dont use that power are also dead (cars). Having the grid "safe" would do nothing in this case. The world would be in chaos and financially destroyed well before your new un-fried TV arrives to your home thanks to the neighborhood new and un-fried delivery truck (not to mention manufacturing, etc etc etc).[/QUOTE] Just a note, some things would survive an EMP. From what i understand, pretty much any car before 1973 would (using a carb with points ignition and a generator, vs later 70's when they added alternators and electronic ignitions) Also, older mechanical diesels would survive. Older generators could survive to provide electricity As far as heating, some houses use propane for heating. Im currantly renting a house that does. There are 0 computers, its all mechanical. Afaik, smaller boat motors would survive (up to 25-35hp? i believe theyre still mechanical then, though some offer electric start alongside pull start)

[QUOTE=Banhfunbags;41668094]Is it really not possible to predict when these things will happen?[/QUOTE] Solar flares move at the speed of light. There is no current way to predict them.

Jokes on the sun I live in a Faraday cage.

[QUOTE=FunnyBunny;41668595]Solar flares move at the speed of light. There is no current way to predict them.[/QUOTE] Well, you got about 8 minutes.

[quote]knocked out power, [B]cars[/B] and iPhones[/quote] Good thing mine are carburetted. I could toss some points onto them and have them going again inside of 30 minutes.

[QUOTE=KorJax;41668445]wordswordswords[/QUOTE] So, you're saying we should get all the panicking and the looting done [b]NOW[/b] so we don't have to worry about doing it later? But in all seriousness, I have thought over this whole EMP scenario and it scares the living shit out of me.

[QUOTE=FunnyBunny;41668595]Solar flares move at the speed of light. There is no current way to predict them.[/QUOTE] I have a simple solution. Merely store a time machine inside a Faraday cage. After the EMP hits, go back in time to warn people of the event, and to remind yourself to build a Faraday cage for your time machine. All very well and simple. There is a small problem with the actual time machine itself, but these are mere technicalities.

[QUOTE=KorJax;41668445]The article makes it sound like all that's needed is that they just have to make the transformers EMP-proof to protect it. I thought EMP's pretty much fried any and all electrical circuts? Saving a transformer from getting fried would do little in the end then. Having powerlines protected against EMP isn't going to be very helpful when your cars, devices, simple circuts (such as elevator operation), airplanes, boats, lighting, hospitals, radios, refrigeration, AC, heating, etc are all completely toast too. So the power lines still work but everything that uses that power is dead, and the things that dont use that power are also dead (cars). Having the grid "safe" would do nothing in this case. The world would be in chaos and financially destroyed well before your new un-fried TV arrives to your home thanks to the neighborhood new and un-fried delivery truck (not to mention manufacturing, etc etc etc). In other words, there's absolutely nothing you can do society wise if an EMP hits. It literally going to be the end of the world as you know it, even if the "grid" still works. Most people won't survive.[/QUOTE] I disagree. If you can protect the core grid, it means re-establishing normal life becomes much quicker, and wouldn't take years. Instead of having to recreate an entirely new grid from scratch, you'd only need to rebuild what's around it. it'd still be a terrible existence for a few years, but it'll be better than a couple of decades.

On a random note, what would happen to the world's nuclear power plants if an EMP hit the Earth? I know it wouldn't spontaneously cause a meltdown, but the plant's water coolant systems would probably be knocked offline. If that happened, the nuclear fuel would overheat and cause a meltdown, correct?

I'm paranoid. We need to EMP-proof everything now.

[QUOTE=xxncxx;41668659]Well, you got about 8 minutes.[/QUOTE] What do you mean by that? Even if we had a shielded satellite in close orbit around the sun that sent us a message when it detected a solar flare, that message woudn't reach us before the solar flare did. The flare and the message would be moving towards Earth at the same speed. We wouldn't see the flare approaching or see the visible signs of the flare leaving the sun either, because the light from that event (if there is any visible light) wouldn't reach us until the flare did [editline]1st August 2013[/editline] It would really suck if you were one of those people with an electro-mechanical rectum

[QUOTE=FunnyBunny;41668595]Solar flares move at the speed of light. There is no current way to predict them.[/QUOTE] [quote=wikipedia][B]CMEs typically reach Earth one to five days after leaving the Sun.[/B] During their propagation, CMEs interact with the solar wind and the interplanetary magnetic field (IMF). As a consequence, slow CMEs are accelerated toward the speed of the solar wind and fast CMEs are decelerated toward the speed of the solar wind. Fast CMEs (faster than about 500 km s−1) eventually drive a shock wave. This happens when the speed of the CME in the frame of reference moving with the solar wind is faster than the local fast magnetosonic speed. Such shocks have been observed directly by coronagraphs[11] in the corona, and are related to type II radio bursts. They are thought to form sometimes as low as 2 Rs (solar radii). They are also closely linked with the acceleration of solar energetic particles.[12][/quote] So yeah if the Sun is 8 light minutes away and these things take 5 days to get here it's safe to assume that they don't travel at the speed of light. But yeah that would be bad, I'm surprised that electronics haven't been wiped out yet if we're that vulnerable to a CME.

[QUOTE=Cheshire_cat;41668729]On a random note, what would happen to the world's nuclear power plants if an EMP hit the Earth? I know it wouldn't spontaneously cause a meltdown, but the plant's water coolant systems would probably be knocked offline. If that happened, the nuclear fuel would overheat and cause a meltdown, correct?[/QUOTE] Given the potential volatility of these things I would assume they are already shielded from any sort of external electromagnetic interference along with their backup generators. I [I]hope[/I] they would be able to remain operational until they could be put into a state where they don't require electricity to be stable and safe [editline]1st August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Xystus234;41668764]So yeah if the Sun is 8 light minutes away and these things take 5 days to get here it's safe to assume that they don't travel at the speed of light. But yeah that would be bad, I'm surprised that electronics haven't been wiped out yet if we're that vulnerable to a CME.[/QUOTE] Oh my bad, I assumed the EMP originated at the sun, not when the CME hit the Earth's atmosphere Disregard all the stuff I said about light and EMs

Wouldn't many vehicles be unaffected anyways? Planes get struck by lightning all the time but the faraday cage effect of the metal hull means there is no electric field within. I'd imagine it could be similar with cars. Someone more knowledgeable could weigh in.

This terrifies me to be honest. But I guess the warning could be "Get important stuff 'protected' in any way possible"

[QUOTE=Cheshire_cat;41668729]On a random note, what would happen to the world's nuclear power plants if an EMP hit the Earth? I know it wouldn't spontaneously cause a meltdown, but the plant's water coolant systems would probably be knocked offline. If that happened, the nuclear fuel would overheat and cause a meltdown, correct?[/QUOTE] Nuclear power plants actually have mechanical failsafes. The control rods are spring loaded and will just slam in and shut down the reactor.

[QUOTE=MrEndangered;41668720]I disagree. If you can protect the core grid, it means re-establishing normal life becomes much quicker, and wouldn't take years. Instead of having to recreate an entirely new grid from scratch, you'd only need to rebuild what's around it. it'd still be a terrible existence for a few years, but it'll be better than a couple of decades.[/QUOTE] That's the thing It'd still take a couple of years for everyone to get all their things back, assuming they can even afford to get them back. The problem is, society would have collapsed well before then and likely billions would be dead from lack of easy access to medical, fresh food/water, etc. The economy would never recover, it would basically need to be rebooted. If the whole earth was "turned off" for even two weeks, including all cars, then that would be catastrophic in effect. You think there will be a society left to re-establish after a couple years of darkness? The only other option is the government has specific things in place for such an event to keep the government in working order. I.E. everything goes dark, each city immediately dispatches EMP-proof vehicles and the country goes under a state of emergency for a few years. Everything runs off-the grid until things can get established again. Society will basically be "on pause" with everything being in extreme regultion (and this would need to be acted upon IMMEDIATELY, and still wouldn't garuntee against chaos) until things start working again. But it'll still be very different from before, and theres no telling if gangs or rebel groups will sprout up and cause chaos or take control before the 2 or so years it takes to get everything working again. And of course the economy basically starts again and everyone gets reset to zero. It would take many decades for the recovery to get to where we are now from an economy and society standpoint, and everything you knew about the pre-dark era would be gone, almost as if society and progress for the last 100 years was "rerolled" [editline]1st August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;41668811]This terrifies me to be honest. But I guess the warning could be "Get important stuff 'protected' in any way possible"[/QUOTE] EMP protecting anything is pretty pointless TBH Your battery will run out making your EMP-protected devices about as useful as a brick after a week or two, with no way to charge them.

[QUOTE=DoctorSalt;41668775]Wouldn't many vehicles be unaffected anyways? Planes get struck by lightning all the time but the faraday cage effect of the metal hull means there is no electric field within. I'd imagine it could be similar with cars. Someone more knowledgeable could weigh in.[/QUOTE] Uhhh no. When planes are struck by lighting, they are usually left relatively undamaged because the electricity has no reason to go through the cabin, and just moves around the fuselage on it's journey to the ground. And this has nothing to do with that, sorry. Faraday cages are grounded metal cages that are meant to stop electromagnetic waves. An airplane is the exact opposite of grounded.

[QUOTE=Cheshire_cat;41668729]On a random note, what would happen to the world's nuclear power plants if an EMP hit the Earth? I know it wouldn't spontaneously cause a meltdown, but the plant's water coolant systems would probably be knocked offline. If that happened, the nuclear fuel would overheat and cause a meltdown, correct?[/QUOTE] (Modern) nuclear reactors are build on the principle of a electronic dead-mans switch. Power is required to keep the reactor operating. [QUOTE=LordCrypto;41668212]afaik laser type disks would be fine[/QUOTE] Everyone send their backups to MIPS!

[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41668695]I have a simple solution. Merely store a time machine inside a Faraday cage. After the EMP hits, go back in time to warn people of the event, and to remind yourself to build a Faraday cage for your time machine. All very well and simple. There is a small problem with the actual time machine itself, but these are mere technicalities.[/QUOTE] Grandfather Paradox.

[QUOTE=KorJax;41668841] EMP protecting anything is pretty pointless TBH Your battery will run out making your EMP-protected devices about as useful as a brick after a week or two, with no way to charge them.[/QUOTE] If you're rocking shielded solar/wind/water/gas-generator power then I don't see why

The grammar nazi in me is cringing at the title...

[QUOTE=KorJax;41668841]The problem is, society would have collapsed well before then and likely billions would be dead from lack of easy access to medical, fresh food/water, etc. The economy would never recover, it would basically need to be rebooted.[/QUOTE] Plenty of people will die, sure, but [I]billions[/I]? I dunno about that. Even ancient cities such as Rome held a million+ people securely. It'd just mean millions of people would have to be drafted into farming and security. Society would be more government orientated and feudal. Just because there is a lack of reliable medicine and such doesn't mean that the knowledge of healthcare would be lost, for example. [QUOTE=KorJax;41668841]If the whole earth was "turned off" for even two weeks, including all cars, then that would be catastrophic in effect. You think there will be a society left to re-establish after a couple years of darkness?[/QUOTE] Sure there would. Very strong societies existed before we had any of the current technology quite well. We already have established governments and services, it's just that maintaining order would be more difficult, and supply would be a nightmare. But eventually a normality would resume, even if it sucks. [QUOTE=KorJax;41668841]everything you knew about the pre-dark era would be gone, almost as if society and progress for the last 100 years was "rerolled"[/QUOTE] ... How would that be? We'd still have education, and the richer cities would be rolled back pretty quick, so it'd be hard to forget over a couple of generations.

Obligatory: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN1SyaSdCeM[/media]

I think the important thing to take from this is that the title should say "would have." [QUOTE=Overwatch 7;41668112]I'm not afraid to say it; the prospect of an EMP event whether from natural or man-made causes frightens me. We've come to a point where our society as is simply cannot function without this infrastructure.[/QUOTE] We'd be fine without the electronic infrastructure. It'd be the looting and riots that do the most damage.

[QUOTE=FunnyBunny;41668595]Solar flares move at the speed of light. There is no current way to predict them.[/QUOTE] You usually have almost half a day from a CME to the geomagnetic storm (and blackouts). The geomagnetic storm is caused by charged particles, not by photons.

I think why it says Iphones is that most cell phones have electromagnetic shielding inside. If you ever take one apart, they are those metal grille things. Iphones probably dont need one or dont have the room for one, so they arent shielded.

[QUOTE=Maloof?;41668898]If you're rocking shielded solar/wind/water/gas-generator power then I don't see why[/QUOTE] Most modern generators (including stuff like solar) wouldn't work anymore either. Only older/simple generators that you don't buy a lowes wouldn't be affected, and the chance you'll have something like that and be able to use it to keep your stuff charged (how do you get gas? siphon it?) is slim. Though of course you could always put the generator inside the cage to protect it. The only thing that would be super useful though to keep protected would be the radio - you wouldn't be able to use GPS's or cell phones. Though I suppose as long as you have enough batteries on hand you don't have to worry about a radio dying anytime soon. [editline]1st August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=MrEndangered;41668997]Plenty of people will die, sure, but [I]billions[/I]? I dunno about that. Even ancient cities such as Rome held a million+ people securely. It'd just mean millions of people would have to be drafted into farming and security. Society would be more government orientated and feudal. Just because there is a lack of reliable medicine and such doesn't mean that the knowledge of healthcare would be lost, for example. Sure there would. Very strong societies existed before we had any of the current technology quite well. We already have established governments and services, it's just that maintaining order would be more difficult, and supply would be a nightmare. But eventually a normality would resume, even if it sucks. ... How would that be? We'd still have education, and the richer cities would be rolled back pretty quick, so it'd be hard to forget over a couple of generations.[/QUOTE] Billions could easily die. You have to remember the majority of the population on earth lives in an urban environment, where you're not going magically just be able to easily draft people into farming or anything (which takes time anyways), and all perishable foods will be gone within the first couple of weeks and the non-perishables will need to be strictly rationed (especially since you know... production of such foods isn't going to be happening for a while seeing as everything is fried). But this is all assuming that as soon as an EMP event happens, the government (local) will be able to instantly respond and start some kind of action-plan to keep order. No such thing is currently in place, so none of the above would happen at all if the event happens right now. And god forbid you live in a backwater area, poor area, or a developing country like china (unless you live in the rural areas). Disease is more major than you think. The biggest threat is water. How are you going to get access to clean water, when the the reservoir that cleans the water for you requires electricity to operate? The moment an EMP hits, you have maybe a day or two before all the water in the plumbing system will no longer be clean to drink or bathe in. You can't boil it without a gas stove, which is a limited resource, and most people don't have access to it. The biggest thing is simply a lack of being able to get yourself to areas that are safe from rioting/chaos/looting, and get yourself around in general. If you get sick or an injury, all the collective medical knowledge in your city won't mean jack shit if you can't get to anyone, get to any drugs (which are no longer being produced), and the hospitals sure as hell wont be operating anymore. Of course strong societies have existed before current technology, but those societies didn't depend on them to function like they do now. What do you think will happen when suddenly everything turns off, your phone no longer works, all the lights stop working and you can't drive anywhere? That suddenly everyone and everything will magically start riding on horses, you'll break out your oil lamp, and wave to milk man as he delivers your milk? You won't be able to do a damn thing but sit in your home, and hope nobody tries to loot you, or go looting yourself to give yourself an edge in the long haul. And by my last statement, I'm talking mostly about the companies you see operating now. None of them will somehow "stay in business" for 2 years of darkness, a lot of industries (like games!) would basically become irrelevant until the rebuilding (which might take years) and re-establishing of the economy starts back up again. People who survived and are entrepreneur types will be able to step in on this clean slate and have their own companies/businesses/financial means. Its very unlikely that all the same companies and brands and everything will be the same as it was before and after.

Sounds horrifying. Would make a great movie/book though.