A New DNA Test Can ID a Suspect's Race, But Police Won't Touch It.
139 replies, posted
So, if a witness comes over and says "I saw the murderer, he was black" everything is dandy
But when it's through DNA, it's suddenly a big fucking deal?
wtc America
[QUOTE=Lambeth;35540981]More like it has the potential to be a tool of racism[/QUOTE]
Any tool has the potential to be used for good or blatantly abused. That's as true for this new DNA testing technique and profiling as it is for firearms, vehicles, or any other number of such devices. This is all obvious as fuck. What benefits and advantages this has offered us already when it has been used properly and responsibly grossly outweigh what few troubles and disadvantages it could potentially see in the future.
People really need to stop with this mentality. It's just hurting more than it is helping us as a society.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;35541281]Um, what?
We haven't suddenly discovered how to determine if someone is black whereas before we weren't aware race even existed. We already know the races of people we catch and convict. This just gives a method of determining the race of a person simply from DNA evidence.[/QUOTE]
sure that's what it sounds like, but it's literally assigning race to a genetic significance, used in a negative connotation. it's wishful thinking to assume that this would only have positive implications of stopping crime, because it really is putting a huge emphasis on race, which is the sole thing they are identifying here.
[QUOTE=Vasili;35541320]I don't think showing someones race via DNA would show all black people cause more crime.[/QUOTE]
then you have a really optimistic view of race in america. this could be sensationalized so easily. we already have a negative stigma towards blacks regarding crime, and having GENETIC JUSTIFICATION will make things so much worse.
say in the example from the story, where they were looking for a white guy. then they found out they were supposed to be looking for a black guy. how many people there thought "man i knew it was a black guy all along"?
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541389]sure that's what it sounds like, but it's literally assigning race to a genetic significance, used in a negative connotation. it's wishful thinking to assume that this would only have positive implications of stopping crime, because it really is putting a huge emphasis on race, which is the sole thing they are identifying here.[/QUOTE]
What in the world are you on about
Being politically correct is stupid in general but this case takes the cake.
There ARE differences between human races, live with it.
Just because people accept that differences exist doesn't make them racist, it's using those differences to act like shit towards other races that makes them racist.
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541195]it gives a scientific justification for behavior. it's providing actual scientific evidence to perpetuate prejudice.
people are already looking for reasons to justify their prejudice, and with a tool like this the problem will only get worse. basically we are asserting race to be more than just a difference of skin, but a completely different strand of DNA altogether. this could create so much inequality, way beyond the scope of police. just think of people who would use this to say that black people cause more crime, because they have DNA to prove it.[/QUOTE]
What? All this does is identify someone's race, I don't see how it went from there to saying a race is more criminal than another.
that putting race as a genetic quality that can be measured scientifically in a crime scene is going to have negative racial implications
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541433]that putting race as a genetic quality that can be measured scientifically in a crime scene is going to have negative racial implications[/QUOTE]
Race has been a genetic thing forever, it's just that we can use that to our actual advantage now.
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541389]
then you have a really optimistic view of race in america. this could be sensationalized so easily. we already have a negative stigma towards blacks regarding crime, and having GENETIC JUSTIFICATION will make things so much worse.
say in the example from the story, where they were looking for a white guy. then they found out they were supposed to be looking for a black guy. how many people there thought "man i knew it was a black guy all along"?[/QUOTE]
I'm aware of genetic theories on race but being able to detect someones race via DNA doesn't say anything else about race besides being black, white or asian. This to me does not remotely look like genetic justification.
But then again maybe American racism really is so horrible that they'd use something like this to shout slurs.
[QUOTE=Electrocuter;35541422]
What? All this does is identify someone's race, I don't see how it went from there to saying a race is more criminal than another.[/QUOTE]
then you really don't have a grasp on racial issues, i really don't know how to put it in words other than that. this isn't going to be used often in cases unless they actually believe that there's a chance the suspect will be black, and looking to find out for sure that they are looking for the wrong race. at that point they are going to "have known it all along"
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541389]sure that's what it sounds like, but it's literally assigning race to a genetic significance, used in a negative connotation. it's wishful thinking to assume that this would only have positive implications of stopping crime, because it really is putting a huge emphasis on race, which is the sole thing they are identifying here.[/QUOTE]
This isnt putting a huge emphasis on race, its purely used to determine whether or not you are looking for a black, white, hispanic person etc who committed a crime.
This cant really be abused in any way, if you wanted to prove black people are more agressive or whatever in some idiotic way then this makes no difference, you could just go and get the already existing crime figures which detail what race the person who did it is.
Put it this way, they have a case with witnesses, they know they are looking for a white or black guy. If they have a case with no witnesses, they can use any DNA to find out the race of the person who committed the crime to give them an idea of who to look for.
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541389]sure that's what it sounds like, but it's literally assigning race to a genetic significance, used in a negative connotation. it's wishful thinking to assume that this would only have positive implications of stopping crime, because it really is putting a huge emphasis on race, which is the sole thing they are identifying here.
then you have a really optimistic view of race in america. this could be sensationalized so easily. we already have a negative stigma towards blacks regarding crime, and having GENETIC JUSTIFICATION will make things so much worse.
say in the example from the story, where they were looking for a white guy. then they found out they were supposed to be looking for a black guy. how many people there thought "man i knew it was a black guy all along"?[/QUOTE]
So you're saying we should stop scientific progress due to dumb people?
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;35541453]Race has been a genetic thing forever, it's just that we can use that to our actual advantage now.[/QUOTE]
i'm not really sure how racially profiling is using race to our advantage
[QUOTE=Vasili;35541457]I'm aware of genetic theories on race but being able to detect someones race via DNA doesn't say anything else about race besides being black, white or asian. This to me does not remotely look like genetic justification.
But then again maybe American racism really is so horrible that they'd use something like this to shout slurs.[/QUOTE]
yes, american racism really is so awful that they would use this to make slurs. that's exactly the point. it is going to help people justify prejudice
[QUOTE=FZE;35541339]Why is anyone who doesn't agree with your completely speculative future of this technology an idiot? You're proposing we play hide and seek with young children where they're standing right fucking there but we have to pretend not to see them to be nice, except the children are serial murderers.[/QUOTE]
Did I say anyone who doesn't agree with me is an idiot? I said that if you didn't think this was going to be horribly abused, [I]then[/I] you'd be an idiot.
By using this, people are given a reason to be prejudiced, as Trogdon said. Finding a criminal is more like wading through a minefield looking for a specific, dummy mine. Pick the wrong one and you're screwed with no reason to back up your case other than "It looked like the one I was told to look for, how am I to blame if it looks alike?"
Serial murders are an extreme case that don't happen incredibely often, not as much as a black man on the streets is arrested for selling drugs or even for just being there at the wrong place/time. Fact is, this can and most definitely will metastasize racial profiling.
[QUOTE=Electrocuter;35541466]So you're saying we should stop scientific progress due to dumb people?[/QUOTE]
It's good scientific progress, it's just not the scientific progress that can fit together with moral ethics on different levels such race, prejudice, etc..
[QUOTE=Vasili;35541457]I'm aware of genetic theories on race but being able to detect someones race via DNA doesn't say anything else about race besides being black, white or asian. This to me does not remotely look like genetic justification.
But then again maybe American racism really is so horrible that they'd use something like this to shout slurs.[/QUOTE]
I think what this is teaching us so far is that political correctness in America is so horrible we can't even acknowledge that people are different races anymore.
[editline]12th April 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541483]i'm not really sure how racially profiling is using race to our advantage
yes, american racism really is so awful that they would use this to make slurs. that's exactly the point. it is going to help people justify prejudice[/QUOTE]
You're not actually making sense
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541389]sure that's what it sounds like, but it's literally assigning race to a genetic significance, used in a negative connotation. it's wishful thinking to assume that this would only have positive implications of stopping crime, because it really is putting a huge emphasis on race, which is the sole thing they are identifying here.
then you have a really optimistic view of race in america. this could be sensationalized so easily. we already have a negative stigma towards blacks regarding crime, and having GENETIC JUSTIFICATION will make things so much worse.
say in the example from the story, where they were looking for a white guy. then they found out they were supposed to be looking for a black guy. how many people there thought "man i knew it was a black guy all along"?[/QUOTE]
It is literally a procedure that tells police "this is generally what your suspect is going to look like". Everything else you've piled onto the technology is subjective, speculative, and dependent completely upon individuals. If the results are used to show that people of a given race perpetrate more crimes, that's called a statistic, not prejudice. If that statistic is used to reinforce prejudice, that is the fault of an individual.
[QUOTE=Cushie;35541462]
Put it this way, they have a case with witnesses, they know they are looking for a white or black guy. If they have a case with no witnesses, they can use any DNA to find out the race of the person who committed the crime to give them an idea of who to look for.[/QUOTE]
how is that not racial profiling?
literally that is what racial profiling is, you are now looking for anyone that's black as a suspect!
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541498]how is that not racial profiling?
literally that is what racial profiling is, you are now looking for anyone that's black as a suspect![/QUOTE]
50 people witness a murder in broad daylight on a street and tell the police the perpetrator is a Hispanic male
WOAH guys we can't just look for a Hispanic male that's profiling
[QUOTE=FZE;35541497][b]If the results are used to show that people of a given race perpetrate more crimes, that's called a statistic, not prejudice. If that statistic is used to reinforce prejudice, that is the fault of an individual.[/b][/QUOTE]
no actually that's literally prejudice, because you are looking for statistics to reinforce your ideas.
do you really think that black people commit more crimes than white people?
This is NOT looking for a member of one race because omg they commit crimes, this is looking for a member of one race because you have ACTUAL EVIDENCE the perpetrator is that race
When did America become so PC that this in some way wrong. O.O I'm Biracial and think this is ridiculous and by what particular basis do we "Bleed the same blood" the only thing common among all people is its the same color oooooh.
That's my dumb ass opinion.
DNA points to an Asian suspect?
Ignore that, let's keep on investigating this black guy!
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541483]
yes, american racism really is so awful that they would use this to make slurs. that's exactly the point. it is going to help people justify prejudice[/QUOTE]
Even if they do, this really says nothing as it just shows you can show race from DNA.
It doesn't say black people cause more crime or are stupid compared to whites and if a racist tried to use that to support a theory of his then its likely he'll get smacked down by rational thinkers.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;35541519]50 people witness a murder in broad daylight on a street and tell the police the perpetrator is a Hispanic male
WOAH guys we can't just look for a Hispanic male that's profiling[/QUOTE]
no because that's using witnesses. this is going without a witness, and looking for someone based solely on DNA, you don't have anything about the suspect other than race.
in your analogy you have other details such as dress, height, weight, and other physical factors to help identify your character. in this case, literally the only thing they are looking for is a specific race.
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541526]no actually that's literally prejudice, because you are looking for statistics to reinforce your ideas.
do you really think that black people commit more crimes than white people?[/QUOTE]
Do you really think that all races commit crimes in exactly equal numbers?
Claiming that more robberies are perpetrated by a certain race is not racism. It's just a fact that can be used to support racist ideas.
[editline]12th April 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541558]no because that's using witnesses. this is going without a witness, and looking for someone based solely on DNA, you don't have anything about the suspect other than race.
in your analogy you have other details such as dress, height, weight, and other physical factors to help identify your character. in this case, literally the only thing they are looking for is a specific race.[/QUOTE]
And yet that still cuts out a huge number of people the police don't have to search for anymore unless new evidence comes to light. It's not like they're gonna go pull the first black man off the street and convict him if DNA evidence points to a black offender. They still have to prove it was that person.
[QUOTE=Doneeh;35541484]Did I say anyone who doesn't agree with me is an idiot? I said that if you didn't think this was going to be horribly abused, [I]then[/I] you'd be an idiot.[/QUOTE]
Oh, sorry, poor reading on my part, you didn't say anyone not in agreement with your speculative fiction is an idiot, you said if your speculative fiction is not the future that they, too, envision, they'd be an idiot. Good that that's cleared up.
[QUOTE=Vasili;35541549]Even if they do, this really says nothing as it just shows you can show race from DNA.
It doesn't say black people cause more crime or are stupid compared to whites and if a racist tried to use that to support a theory of his then its likely he'll get smacked down by rational thinkers.[/QUOTE]
it is GOING to cause people to make these implications. it will happen. racists do not make rational justifications, and clearly rational thinkers haven't done much to curb racism thus far, because it's still rampant in modern society
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541461]then you really don't have a grasp on racial issues, i really don't know how to put it in words other than that. this isn't going to be used often in cases unless they actually believe that there's a chance the suspect will be black, and looking to find out for sure that they are looking for the wrong race. at that point they are going to "have known it all along"[/QUOTE]
The way society has to go right now is to have the people accept that there are differences [b]period[/b], then we work on solving racism, you can't do both at the same time, being politically correct only makes things worse.
[QUOTE=Vasili;35541549]Even if they do, this really says nothing as it just shows you can show race from DNA.
It doesn't say black people cause more crime or are stupid compared to whites and if a racist tried to use that to support a theory of his then its likely he'll get smacked down by rational thinkers.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, they'd get smacked down in a potentionally racially equal America, or a nonexistant one for that matter.
Thing is, in most cases, it's the racists who subtly hold more cards than any rational thinker, especially so when it's in law enforcement. The vastness of that sector in the government doesn't help any rationality to bloom, and it sure as hell is an upward battle for anyone who has any and doesn't let the color of another's skin fuel paranoia.
[QUOTE=FZE;35541587]Oh, sorry, poor reading on my part, you didn't say anyone not in agreement with your speculative fiction is an idiot, you said if your speculative fiction is not the future that they, too, envision, they'd be an idiot. Good that that's cleared up.[/QUOTE]
Envision implies I want it, which I don't. I honestly wish we could live without all the bullshit that is prejudice and racism, but I know it's an inevitable part of living in America, or on this planet. It's pretty much a guarentee it's going to be abused and America's past actions and history regarding racial prejudice points directly to that.
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541589]it is GOING to cause people to make these implications. it will happen. racists do not make rational justifications, and clearly rational thinkers haven't done much to curb racism thus far, because it's still rampant in modern society[/QUOTE]
but as we know racists aren't usually taken serious as their 'science' and theories are full of shit.
[QUOTE=Trogdon;35541558] in this case, literally the only thing they are looking for is a specific race.[/QUOTE]
Well if the testing shows that someone from a specific race committed it, why shouldn't they?
If a witness came to you and said "the guy was black", you would take his word for it. You would search for a black individual. And DNA is regarded as more valuable than witness testimony in a trial, since witnesses can get confused.
By saying "I'm not using DNA evidence that I just found" You're being a hypocrite.
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