Asian farmers flocking to Monsanto and Chinese GM crops. Total acreage of biotech has trebled since - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40794307]I fully understand this. You don't need to spoonfeed me about how it works. Of course they don't make more money, they keep competing with each other whilst the price of food declines. Actually they should do what Europeans did in the 19th century. Stop farming, because too many people are involved in agriculture.[/QUOTE] You apparently do need to be spoonfed because you fail to understand time and time again

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40796663]You apparently do need to be spoonfed because you fail to understand time and time again[/QUOTE] Fail to understand what?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40796732]Fail to understand what?[/QUOTE] these practices are bad and have consequences and aren't a good product of capitalism like you keep claiming

Will next gen Monsanto be Kinect enabled?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40796749]these practices are bad and have consequences and aren't a good product of capitalism like you keep claiming[/QUOTE] The consequences being that the price of food declines, and more is produced with less?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40796863]The consequences being that the price of food declines, and more is produced with less?[/QUOTE] holy shit it's like you have a hard on for missing the fucking point. Yes, the price of food declines and these farmers supporting us world wide continue to get bled into the ground financially and are increasingly unable to support themselves. Yes GMO foods are a good thing. You can stop acting like we're posting against them. The fucking business practices being put into place around them though are not defensible and you're appearing increasingly ridiculous with every defense of them.

[QUOTE=IPK;40790261]Are you one of those idiots who think each and every single one 3rd world country is a shithole that should get nuked? The 3rd countries are the ones in the nonaligned movement[/QUOTE] Im an Idiot who lives in a 3rd world country. I give three fucks about the political meaning, we are no longer in 1985. 3rd world country accepts multiple meanings, one of them being "Shitty underdeveloped nation which is being developed". Among them, many Africans Countries. [QUOTE]Are you implying we're helping the 3rd world by exploiting cheap labor (and child labor)? Cut the crap already.[/QUOTE] If you prefer Children to be in the streets starving or being prostituted.... Oh, btw, look at the workers salaries in China. Fucking welfare states, why don't they all put the minimum wage at 8000 dollars so we all can be rich in the world once and for all? NOT. [QUOTE]The fucking business practices being put into place around them though are not defensible and you're appearing increasingly ridiculous with every defense of them.[/QUOTE] Morality inside Capitalism? That's a new one.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40797014]holy shit it's like you have a hard on for missing the fucking point. Yes, the price of food declines and these farmers supporting us world wide continue to get bled into the ground financially and are increasingly unable to support themselves.[/quote] That is competition in action. The less efficient farms are shut down. They then move to the cities to work in industry or services. This is the industrial revolution continuing sir.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40797094]That is competition in action. The less efficient farms are shut down. They then move to the cities to work in industry or services. This is the industrial revolution continuing sir.[/QUOTE] HERE IS THE POINT HERE IS YOU SOBOTNIK YOU ARE HERE Now will you please shut the fuck up, listen to people, and stop blindly going CAPITALISM GOOD WHAT EVEN ARE BAD BUSINESS PRACTICES God, your posts are just so ridiculously stupid and blind.

Monsanto is known for shady deals, they have made seed re-harvesting a thing of the past because Monsanto will sue farmers into the ground if they are caught re-harvesting. If you get caught with Monsanto plants on your property and you have not paid that season you can be sued. This means that unlike in the past where a farmer could grow a few acres of seed crops to save money the next season they now have to buy a new batch every year. They will send out investigators to test your crop if they suspect you. A lot of their lawsuits go nowhere but the company has enough power to prolong the case so long it bankrupts the farmer. Agriculture as a whole is really messed up right now, the consumers demand monocultures so decease and pests are harder to control. The insects adapt to our pesticides incredibly quickly so farmers are having to use new and more frequent treatments. This means their overhead goes up while competition drives prices down leading to more and more small farming operations going under.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40797094]That is competition in action. The less efficient farms are shut down. They then move to the cities to work in industry or services. This is the industrial revolution continuing sir.[/QUOTE] The industrial revolution is a landfill of horrible human rights abuses Competition and monopolistic action are different Yes, less efficient farms will get shut down, that's not what we're arguing about though for fucks sakes. These business practices harm the people who are forced to buy from them or die out. This is acceptable to you. These business practices don't have to exist in this form. This is not acceptable to me. It's not okay that a company like Monsanto can force their will due to their wealth.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40797094]That is competition in action. The less efficient farms are shut down. They then move to the cities to work in industry or services. This is the industrial revolution continuing sir.[/QUOTE] Yeah lets send the farmers where they belong; in the pits, just like we did to the cottage industry. [img]http://webs.bcp.org/sites/vcleary/ModernWorldHistoryTextbook/IndustrialRevolution/Images/slum.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40797135]The industrial revolution is a landfill of horrible human rights abuses Competition and monopolistic action are different Yes, less efficient farms will get shut down, that's not what we're arguing about though for fucks sakes. These business practices harm the people who are forced to buy from them or die out. This is acceptable to you. These business practices don't have to exist in this form. This is not acceptable to me. It's not okay that a company like Monsanto can force their will due to their wealth.[/QUOTE] They aren't forcing farmers however, they are signing contracts with them. [editline]27th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Zenreon117;40797159]Yeah lets send the farmers where they belong; in the pits, just like we did to the cottage industry. [img]http://webs.bcp.org/sites/vcleary/ModernWorldHistoryTextbook/IndustrialRevolution/Images/slum.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] People starving to death and widespread famine was common before the industrial era. Like it or not, the Industrial Revolution was one of the greatest things that has happened to the human species.

In Michael Pollan's Botany of Disire (Great read by the way), he explains that GMOs are a good thing because they reduce pesticide use and increase the yield per plant and farmers save money that way. But at the same time corporations such as Monsanto are screwing over farmers and in the long run it could be very bad. Also some of Monsanto's crops screw over all farmers, not only their customers but other farmers as well. bt was a good natural pesticide that could be added to soil, Monsanto made a plant that produced it and now the pesticide does not work anymore. Monsanto is basically hoping that they can keep developing new pesticides every season, because the bugs keep adapting. It is the agricultural equivalent of over prescribing antibiotics accept the super-bugs are literally bugs. Another book that addresses this, although very briefly, is the beak of the finch by Jonathan Weiner; GMOs are providing selective pressure and the bugs are adapting. The problem is evolution often works faster in the wild than we can produce new chemicals in the lab.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40797173]They aren't forcing farmers however, they are signing contracts with them. [editline]27th May 2013[/editline] People starving to death and widespread famine was common before the industrial era. Like it or not, the Industrial Revolution was one of the greatest things that has happened to the human species.[/QUOTE] Hey, spoonfeeding time again, the airplane is coming in "BRRRRRR BRRRRR BRRRRRRRR"(rotor sounds) So, those farmers who aren't being "forced" are just in situations that mean either relocate and readjust their whole lives(something they arguably don't have money for) or continue to buy the only crop that they really can buy and make money off of. Yeah, that's a form of being forced you know Yes, the industrial revolution was a great thing. It lead to greater things. It of itself is a pretty horrible period of time, and idolizing it the way you clearly do just shows how little you grasp that time periods atrocities.

grr grr fuck corporations jesus shut up _______________________________________________ [img]http://g.bfbcs.com/30009/pc_MikstaSmurf.png[/img]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40797214]Hey, spoonfeeding time again, the airplane is coming in "BRRRRRR BRRRRR BRRRRRRRR"(rotor sounds) So, those farmers who aren't being "forced" are just in situations that mean either relocate and readjust their whole lives(something they arguably don't have money for) or continue to buy the only crop that they really can buy and make money off of. Yeah, that's a form of being forced you know[/quote] What are they to do then? What is there to keep all the farmers in business, yet make them all more productive? [quote]Yes, the industrial revolution was a great thing. It lead to greater things. It of itself is a pretty horrible period of time, and idolizing it the way you clearly do just shows how little you grasp that time periods atrocities.[/QUOTE] That in the years prior to it, 50% of the population lived below the poverty line, slavery was legal, famine happened every few years, plague was common, nobody could obtain any luxury goods, and it cost more to ship something 30 miles inland than across the Atlantic ocean?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40797263]What are they to do then? What is there to keep all the farmers in business, yet make them all more productive? That in the years prior to it, 50% of the population lived below the poverty line, slavery was legal, famine happened every few years, plague was common, nobody could obtain any luxury goods, and it cost more to ship something 30 miles inland than across the Atlantic ocean?[/QUOTE] Are you implying for one second even that Monsanto is almost giving this away at a price that is unfair to them? Or are you again missing the point? Oh whats that? You're missing the point? I thought so. Yes, that is true. That doesn't make it a period of time that is particularly lovable. Yes improvements happened at extreme cost to people. Things were bad before, we're not fucking debating that as much as you want to try and make it about that. We can talk for hours about how the industrial revolution made everything better, but you'd be missing the point because you're not thinking about the cost that had to the people in that time period. If you want another industrial revolution to occur, and you think that it happening in a similar or same method to the first one is a good thing, then you're insane and don't give a shit about human life. Like clearly there can't be a fucking better way to do it, right? Corporate overlords must be your dream or something because you're defending them in everyway like they can't be wrong.

oh look, privileged white people trying to justify the exploitation of poor non-white people never disappoint fp

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40797302]Are you implying for one second even that Monsanto is almost giving this away at a price that is unfair to them? Or are you again missing the point? Oh whats that? You're missing the point? I thought so. Yes, that is true. That doesn't make it a period of time that is particularly lovable. Yes improvements happened at extreme cost to people. Things were bad before, we're not fucking debating that as much as you want to try and make it about that. We can talk for hours about how the industrial revolution made everything better, but you'd be missing the point because you're not thinking about the cost that had to the people in that time period. If you want another industrial revolution to occur, and you think that it happening in a similar or same method to the first one is a good thing, then you're insane and don't give a shit about human life. Like clearly there can't be a fucking better way to do it, right? Corporate overlords must be your dream or something because you're defending them in everyway like they can't be wrong.[/QUOTE] I wish to ask you this: 1. How do we improve the yields of farmers, yet simultaneously ensure all of them remain in business? Those are two contradictory ideas. [editline]27th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=lolwutdude;40797370]oh look, privileged white people trying to justify the exploitation of poor non-white people never disappoint fp[/QUOTE] It's not like capitalism has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40797383]I wish to ask you this: 1. How do we improve the yields of farmers, yet simultaneously ensure all of them remain in business? Those are two contradictory ideas. [editline]27th May 2013[/editline] It's not like capitalism has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty.[/QUOTE] How are they contradictory? You realize monsanto sets those prices as high as they can to gouge the farmers from what they can I ask you, how come it's okay for a company that is legally irreprehensible to do this shit What world are you living in where monsanto is selling those seeds at a low enough price that they're poor? Who has to suffer most? The small guy or the big guy? You've answered this already, the little guy. Oh yes, capitalism itself did that. nothing else did. Nothing but pure capitalism did that, right? Jesus christ boy.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40797395]How are they contradictory? You realize monsanto sets those prices as high as they can to gouge the farmers from what they can[/quote] Yet somehow people are buying them? [quote]What world are you living in where monsanto is selling those seeds at a low enough price that they're poor? Who has to suffer most? The small guy or the big guy? You've answered this already, the little guy. [/quote] Where did I say Monsanto was poor? [quote]Oh yes, capitalism itself did that. nothing else did. Nothing but pure capitalism did that, right?[/QUOTE] Up until the free market reforms in China and the USSR, life there was shit.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40797432]Yet somehow people are buying them? [/QUOTE] At massive cost, they buy Monsanto because Monsanto has a monopoly on pesticide resistant GMOs. They have the only roundup ready crops on the market.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40797432]Yet somehow people are buying them? Where did I say Monsanto was poor? Up until the free market reforms in China and the USSR, life there was shit.[/QUOTE] They buy those seeds because they have to do their job. We've been over this. Those prices are as high as they can be without being too high to prevent loss of sales. For a advocate of capitalsm, you sure as shit do need to spoonfed a lot of info about it. You said [quote]1. How do we improve the yields of farmers, yet simultaneously ensure all of them remain in business?[/quote] as if the only solution was that monsanto sell their work at the highest cost possible, like there isn't another option out of this situation. I'm having trouble having this debate with you at any level because it seems to me like you need everything spelled out for you, but won't accept any spellings but your own. Life was worse in those places. But capitalism itself didn't change that single handedly.

"Hey, nobody's forcing them!", or: how to justify every horrible thing capitalism does with one single phrase by pretending leaving people with no real options is okay just as long as you aren't holding a gun to their head.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40797462]They buy those seeds because they have to do their job. We've been over this.[/quote] They are more productive, hence why they are bought. [quote]Those prices are as high as they can be without being too high to prevent loss of sales. For a advocate of capitalsm, you sure as shit do need to spoonfed a lot of info about it.[/quote] There is a sliding scale between prices and demand. Obviously Monsanto seeds are productive enough that many farmers see the benefits outweigh the downsides. [quote]as if the only solution was that monsanto sell their work at the highest cost possible, like there isn't another option out of this situation.[/quote] What can be done? Making farmers more productive would cause trouble for them collectively no matter what you do.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40797489]They are more productive, hence why they are bought. There is a sliding scale between prices and demand. Obviously Monsanto seeds are productive enough that many farmers see the benefits outweigh the downsides. What can be done? Making farmers more productive would cause trouble for them collectively no matter what you do.[/QUOTE] i'm done bud you've actively convinced yourself of a very incredible set of mental gymnastics that i'm not going to be able to dance through it's corporate overlords or nothing for you and you really can't see any other solution fuck this is an enranging argument to have. all hail monsanto i guess if we have it your way

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40797489] Obviously Monsanto seeds are productive enough that many farmers see the benefits outweigh the downsides.[/quote] Monsanto's practices hurt all farmers, not only their customers.

[QUOTE=imptastick;40797519]Monsanto's practices hurt all farmers, not only their customers.[/QUOTE] That's because their farms are more productive. This leads to a decline in prices, and forces the less efficient farms out of business.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40797559]That's because their farms are more productive. This leads to a decline in prices, and forces the less efficient farms out of business.[/QUOTE] Also they are creating super pests, which is in the long run a much bigger issue.