Richard Dawkins backs plans for a bible in every school - Polidicks

[QUOTE=joes33431;36109734]"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:13 [/QUOTE] But then you could say the American government supports murder because of the death sentence That was just the law and views of the time. Go back over 2000 years, and whatever the culture or religion homosexuality was always frowned upon. It has nothing specifically to do with the Bible

[QUOTE=Lankist;36106977]No. They aren't deep or moral. Hitler said a lot of shit. Some of it was inspirational. But with the shit he did, you don't sit there and say you can learn a lot of great things from Hitler. You know the "nice" things he said were just honeyed words from a madman. It doesn't matter if there's a few choice quotations for you to say are inspirational. Those words were still written in blood, and they're nothing for you to be basing your fucking morality on. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] The term "militant atheist" is so fucking dumb. "Militant atheists" are atheists that say what they think, granting no false or patronizing 'respect' to beliefs. A militant muslim blows himself up in a market square. A militant christian firebombs an abortion clinic. A militant atheist, what, talks shit about the Bible on the internet? I don't know how fucking dumb you have to be to think that's a valid comparison. There is nothing militant about speaking out. It's like saying Ghandi was a militant because he said lots of things and called people fools on occasion. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] That's called patronizing bullshit. Who do you think you are? What, you're going to sit here like you know everything, but you're too afraid of the Christians'/Muslims'/whatever's fragile feelings, so you hold back? That's incredibly condescending and disrespectful. I don't pull punches because I don't think my counterparts are invalids who can't handle a little heat. They're human beings. I can say with a great deal of confidence that I'm not going to shatter their little psyche with my words. Lay your cards out on the table. Don't pretend you're above both atheists and theists alike with this "conciliatory" bullshit.[/QUOTE] Comparing the Bible to Hitler. That is called immature. I am not afraid of anybody's feelings. I just like to be nice and have no religion without shitting on everything else people believe in. I obviously do not like the bad things that religion bring into the world, but I do recognize the good that religion can do as well. I have shifted my hate from religion onto extremism of all sorts. Religious people do not kill, extremists do. I'm also not pretending to be conciliatory and nice in my atheism. I am not pulling punches because I do not even want to be in a situation in which punches are needed or expected. I am laying my cards on the table, they just are not dumb and hurtful like yours.

[QUOTE=RobbL;36109955]But then you could say the American government supports murder because of the death sentence That was just the law and views of the time. Go back over 2000 years, and whatever the culture or religion homosexuality was always frowned upon. It has nothing specifically to do with the Bible[/QUOTE] Some areas in Ancient Greece and Ancient China both were fairly accepting of homosexuality.

snip, somehow it double-posted

You can't just condemn a giant book for a few passages that say shitty things since it is a book with many authors. While I do not endorse cherry-picking, I can't just say ONE thing about the Bible either. You have to look at the good at the bad together. I still live by, as an atheist, passages from Ecclesiastes because of their wisdom. I also recognize the intense cultural value of the myths in books like Genesis and Exodus, as not true as they are, and as not original as they are.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;36109910]Just read the books of Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy. Those 3 books have the greatest concentration of murder and rape. Genesis has some genocide in it(Noah's Ark, Sodom, etc.). If you look at the old testament, almost any book will have endorsements of pretty foul acts, or god actually carrying out pretty foul acts. 22 “Therefore, Oholibah, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will stir up your lovers against you, those you turned away from in disgust, and I will bring them against you from every side — 23 the Babylonians and all the Chaldeans, the men of Pekod and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them, handsome young men, all of them governors and commanders, chariot officers and men of high rank, all mounted on horses. 24 They will come against you with weapons,[d] chariots and wagons and with a throng of people; they will take up positions against you on every side with large and small shields and with helmets. I will turn you over to them for punishment, and they will punish you according to their standards. 25 I will direct my jealous anger against you, and they will deal with you in fury. They will cut off your noses and your ears, and those of you who are left will fall by the sword. They will take away your sons and daughters, and those of you who are left will be consumed by fire. 26 They will also strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry. 27 So I will put a stop to the lewdness and prostitution you began in Egypt. You will not look on these things with longing or remember Egypt anymore. [url]http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+23&version=NIV[/url][/QUOTE] Just because characters or people do something in a book doesn't necessarily mean that the book supports it. Hell, we don't even know if most of this stuff is just complex allegory and we're interpreting it wrong But even if the Bible does condone murder in some cases, that doesn't disprove the fact that we can learn from the knowledge and wisdom in it

[QUOTE=RobbL;36110017]Just because characters or people do something in a book doesn't necessarily mean that the book supports it. Hell, we don't even know if most of this stuff is just complex allegory and we're interpreting it wrong But even if the Bible does condone murder in some cases, that doesn't disprove the fact that we can learn from the knowledge and wisdom in it[/QUOTE] Those are the words of god. God is sending men down to kill this woman for her promiscuity. Read the whole chapter of Ezekiel, it's really just about describing these two whores in graphic detail, then talking about how their prostitution and lust is a sin and how they will be punished for it. Also read the chapter before that, where god says that the city of Jerusalem has become full of idolatry and murder so basically he is going to rain fire upon the city. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] And like I said, read the entire books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy. That's a treasure trove of righteous violence, slavery, and rape.

Most of the time when things like that are described, Hebrews were looking for reasons to be unlucky. God condemns Jerusalem in Ezekiel because the writers were trying to find a reason why God allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed by Babylon. A lot of those passages have historical context. But yeah there is no avoiding that there are bad things in the Bible. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] Many Old Testament laws promoted things like welfare and protection of the most vulnerable people in society (widows, orphans, and foreigners). There were laws against exploiting your workers or the poor in general that were followed (we know these laws were applied because they were changed and refined from Exodus to Leviticus to Deuteronomy). The Bible is a lot more Progressive than people think. If religious extremists actually read the Bible, they would be a lot more Liberal.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;36110088]Those are the words of god. God is sending men down to kill this woman for her promiscuity. Read the whole chapter of Ezekiel, it's really just about describing these two whores in graphic detail, then talking about how their prostitution and lust is a sin and how they will be punished for it. Also read the chapter before that, where god says that the city of Jerusalem has become full of idolatry and murder so basically he is going to rain fire upon the city. [/QUOTE] Well prostitution isn't a very moral thing anyway even in society today, but that's missing the point. God is made out as an all-powerful being who can do whatever he likes to those who do 'wrong' (well what was seen as wrong in society at the time) He's basically the idea of karma manifested as a being. Just because karma brings bad things upon people doesn't say it's ok for people to do the same

[QUOTE=RobbL;36109955]But then you could say the American government supports murder because of the death sentence That was just the law and views of the time. Go back over 2000 years, and whatever the culture or religion homosexuality was always frowned upon. It has nothing specifically to do with the Bible[/QUOTE] So then a book that espouses itself as just and moral is excused of actually being just and moral, simply because the rest of society was stupid? I mean, it explains why that passage exists, I understand that, but it doesn't mean that it's correct.

[QUOTE=person11;36110141]Most of the time when things like that are described, Hebrews were looking for reasons to be unlucky. God condemns Jerusalem in Ezekiel because the writers were trying to find a reason why God allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed by Babylon. A lot of those passages have historical context. But yeah there is no avoiding that there are bad things in the Bible. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] Many Old Testament laws promoted things like welfare and protection of the most vulnerable people in society (widows, orphans, and foreigners). There were laws against exploiting your workers or the poor in general that were followed (we know these laws were applied because they were changed and refined from Exodus to Leviticus to Deuteronomy). The Bible is a lot more Progressive than people think. If religious extremists actually read the Bible, they would be a lot more Liberal.[/QUOTE] Leviticus 19[SUP]: 9 [/SUP]“‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the Lord your God." Biblical social justice? The bible was a set of laws to govern the Israeli people with the guise of being divine. The goal was to create a functioning society. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=RobbL;36110218]Well prostitution isn't a very moral thing anyway even in society today, but that's missing the point. God is made out as an all-powerful being who can do whatever he likes to those who do 'wrong' (well what was seen as wrong in society at the time) He's basically the idea of karma manifested as a being. Just because karma brings bad things upon people doesn't say it's ok for people to do the same[/QUOTE] No, it means that there are no rules if you believe god told you to do it. It is totally alright to kill, rape, and pillage as long as the people you are exacting wrath on is considered an infidel or idolater. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] That's as far as the old testament goes, though. The new covenant makes things more tricky from a theological perspective.

I think that morality is more a social construct than a guide to a good life. It ends up being more of a tool to control and mold people to a given image, rather than giving them a set of guidelines for being happy and well. My personal view of morality is that it comes from informed consent. If a man wants to kill another man, and that other man knows full and well the implications of being killed, then there's nothing wrong, that is in the case of a man [I]without[/I] specific responsibility such as fatherhood. That's just an entirely new debate otherwise.

person11 and other pro-religious posters, I can't believe I'm saying this but... you guys got schooled by Lankist.

I know i'm probably getting a bit carried away with my last few posts... My main point is that there is a lot we can learn from the knowledge and wisdom in the Bible, especially when you look at from a non-religious viewpoint and see God as a character who is not morally perfect, and take into account the historical context of the texts. Anyone who says that the bad things said in the Bible completely invalidate the worth of the rest of it are idiots, period.

[QUOTE=RobbL;36110785]I know i'm probably getting a bit carried away with my last few posts... My main point is that there is a lot we can learn from the knowledge and wisdom in the Bible, especially when you look at from a non-religious viewpoint and see God as a character who is not morally perfect, and take into account the historical context of the texts. Anyone who says that the bad things said in the Bible completely invalidate the worth of the rest of it are idiots, period.[/QUOTE] [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] Of course my post doesn't show up. I don't feel like re-typing it, so you can be left wondering about what profound things I was going to say.

[QUOTE=RobbL;36110785]I know i'm probably getting a bit carried away with my last few posts... My main point is that there is a lot we can learn from the knowledge and wisdom in the Bible, especially when you look at from a non-religious viewpoint and see God as a character who is not morally perfect, and take into account the historical context of the texts. Anyone who says that the bad things said in the Bible completely invalidate the worth of the rest of it are idiots, period.[/QUOTE] Imagine if your political representative said he wanted all homosexuals murdered, in an entirely serious manner at one point, in a small sentence added onto something else he was saying. Wouldn't you like that person a lot less, even if it was a small comment? Because this is the word of "God" we're talking about here. And I'd rather not follow his bullshit if he's going to say things like that. One would not take seriously the political viewpoints of, say, Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer, no matter how valid, mainly because they're batshit insane serial killers.

[QUOTE=joes33431;36111082]Imagine if your political representative said he wanted all homosexuals murdered, in an entirely serious manner at one point, in a small sentence added onto something else he was saying. Wouldn't you like that person a lot less, even if it was a small comment? Because this is the word of "God" we're talking about here. And I'd rather not follow his bullshit if he's going to say things like that. One would not take seriously the political viewpoints of, say, Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer, no matter how valid, mainly because they're batshit insane serial killers.[/QUOTE] No, it's more like saying everything in a newspaper is bullshit because of a one or two bad articles written by one columnist Btw, [QUOTE=RobbL;36108893]Fucking Mahatma Gandhi said some racist things against blacks, but doesn't mean we can't learn anything valuable from his speeches and quotations It's the same with anything, including the Bible. You're basically making a terrible Ad hominem argument[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=RobbL;36111318]No, it's more like saying everything in a newspaper is bullshit because of a one or two bad articles written by one columnist Btw,[/QUOTE] Except in this newspaper every other article is bad and there are only small excerpts of anything enlightening or profound. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] How much of the bible have you seriously read?

[QUOTE=Jackald;36102599]If the bible's wrong about homosexuality, murder, rape, slavery and racism, why would it be right about anything else? Also, isn't the bible supposed to be the infallible Word of God? (at least some of it)[/QUOTE] No, some parts maybe but you have to remember that the bible was for the most part just an interpretation of God's word so it was prone to cultural beliefs at the time and was written by different people. If the Bible was written today it would be a completely different book.

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;36110644]person11 and other pro-religious posters, I can't believe I'm saying this but... you guys got schooled by Lankist.[/QUOTE] Not really. He is pretending one of the most important books in western culture and history is bullshit and terrible because of some antiquated passages that say bad things. He does not understand that the myths and stories in the book were the smartest writings of their times, not some words from a dumbshit in the desert. He bleeds ignorance. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] There is no more point in arguing anymore. I'm glad real scholars take the book seriously so that I don't have to worry about a few people on the Internet not doing so.

[QUOTE=person11;36111496]Not really. He is pretending one of the most important books in western culture and history is bullshit and terrible because of some antiquated passages that say bad things. He does not understand that the myths and stories in the book were the smartest writings of their times, not some words from a dumbshit in the desert. He bleeds ignorance. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] There is no more point in arguing anymore. I'm glad real scholars take the book seriously so that I don't have to worry about a few people on the Internet not doing so.[/QUOTE] You talk about beautiful morals and lessons. Point them out to us, along with where they came from. Then you'll prove your point.

[QUOTE=person11;36109986]Comparing the Bible to Hitler. That is called immature.[/QUOTE] Hitler was a Catholic who claimed to have received messages from God. It's not far off. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=RobbL;36109330]May I ask, where does the Bible actually endorse murder, genocide, rape or everything else that people are claiming here, without taking anything out of context?[/QUOTE] In addition to what other people say, the Bible also decrees that, if a woman is raped, she must marry her rapist. incredible wisdom. dont worry about all that rape, slavery and mass murder. nah, bro, there's some shallow wisdom and a couple platitudes in this fucking book that have arisen in every single culture, religious or not, that has ever existed on the face of Earth. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=joes33431;36111537]You talk about beautiful morals and lessons. Point them out to us, along with where they came from. Then you'll prove your point.[/QUOTE] Also mention how they're unique to the Bible. People love to act like the Golden Rule ("do unto others as you would have them do unto you") is from the Bible, when in fact the Golden Rule has developed independently in every single ancient society and civilization that has ever existed. And when the Bible's version of the Golden Rule is followed by the addendum "unless they're unbelievers," then I don't think that's the iteration you want to be espousing.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36111598]Hitler was a Catholic who claimed to have received messages from God. It's not far off. [/QUOTE] Don't bring Hitler into this. He wasn't really a Catholic, and he definitely wasn't an atheist, either. I think ultimately Hitler was a Hitlerite, he believed in himself above all else and used whatever he wanted to achieve his goals. Catholicism has enough human rights abuses attributed to it without getting into the fuzzy, inconsistent world of Hitler's religious views.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36111598]Hitler was a Catholic who claimed to have received messages from God. It's not far off.[/QUOTE] One person preaches it /=/ all preach it, that's just dumb. Hitler also called Protestants submissive as dogs, shot priests of the Catholic church, and secretly hoped the Orthodox Churches would kill each other. To quote someone else [quote]"It is hard to see that he was referring to the same God worshipped by Christians."[/quote]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;36111685]Don't bring Hitler into this. He wasn't really a Catholic, and he definitely wasn't an atheist, either. I think ultimately Hitler was a Hitlerite, he believed in himself above all else and used whatever he wanted to achieve his goals. Catholicism has enough human rights abuses attributed to it without getting into the fuzzy, inconsistent world of Hitler's religious views.[/QUOTE] No True Scotsman. In WWI Hitler was hit by mustard gas, was diagnosed with conversion disorder, and was reported to awake from the ordeal proclaiming he had received a mission from God to save Mother Germany. This "he wasn't a TRUE Christian" bullshit is a cop-out. Also considering the fucking Vatican was cool with him doesn't fucking help. You'd think if Hitler was his own man, he wouldn't have left the Vatican completely untouched while his forces occupied and burned Rome. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Zambies!;36111699]One person preaches it /=/ all preach it, that's just dumb. Hitler also called Protestants submissive as dogs, shot priests of the Catholic church, and secretly hoped the Orthodox Churches would kill each other. To quote someone else[/QUOTE] No True Scotsman bullshit. Does not apply. Unless you're willing to define the "Christian God," accompanied by legitimate and tangible evidence in favor of what the Christian God really is, you can NOT say that someone is not a "true Christian." [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] Lest we forget the Vatican signed a concordat with Nazi Germany. [editline]28th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=RobbL;36109955]That was just the law and views of the time. Go back over 2000 years, and whatever the culture or religion homosexuality was always frowned upon. It has nothing specifically to do with the Bible[/QUOTE] hahaha uhhh athens. Homosexual conduct was SUPER common in pre-abrahamic history. Greece, in particular, was a very prolific and sexually open society. They boned for fun and had absolutely no shame about it. The shameful stigmas surrounding sex were not prevalent prior to the rise of monotheism.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36111722]No True Scotsman. In WWI Hitler was hit by mustard gas, was diagnosed with conversion disorder, and was reported to awake from the ordeal proclaiming he had received a mission from God to save Mother Germany. This "he wasn't a TRUE Christian" bullshit is a cop-out. Also considering the fucking Vatican was cool with him doesn't fucking help. You'd think if Hitler was his own man, he wouldn't have left the Vatican completely untouched while his forces occupied and burned Rome. [/QUOTE] I'm not talking about him being a true christian, I'm talking about him simply being an opportunist who used whatever was convenient to advance his agenda. Just the fact that it's disputable doesn't lend credibility to the idea that he was a devout Catholic. And either way, he never participated in sacraments, while also persecuting a number of churches and trying to reduce their influence. Hitler wanted power, and anything that could grant him this power was a tool, while anything that could reduce this power was an impedance. He allied with the church when it could further his goals, but he would also turn on the church if he felt it would further his goals. He might have been a christian, but definitely not a Catholic. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he felt himself to be a prophet or messiah sent from god, which would essentially make his beliefs branch off from christianity, and go into Hitlerism.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;36111847]I'm not talking about him being a true christian, I'm talking about him simply being an opportunist who used whatever was convenient to advance his agenda. Just the fact that it's disputable doesn't lend credibility to the idea that he was a devout Catholic. And either way, he never participated in sacraments, while also persecuting a number of churches and trying to reduce their influence. Hitler wanted power, and anything that could grant him this power was a tool, while anything that could reduce this power was an impedance. He allied with the church when it could further his goals, but he would also turn on the church if he felt it would further his goals. He might have been a christian, but definitely not a Catholic. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he felt himself to be a prophet or messiah sent from god, which would essentially make his beliefs branch off from christianity, and go into Hitlerism.[/QUOTE] Did you miss the part about how he went on a delusional rant about receiving a mission from god prior to his rise to power.

yawmwen posted some good parts from Leviticus about welfare. Ecclesiastes teaches modesty and balance while Jesus taught radical forgiveness and peace. Old Testsment laws granted special rights to orphans, widows, and foreigners because they were most often victimized in Hebrew society. Plus all the prophets in Old Testament said amazingly smart and progressive things.

Hitler was obsessed with eradicating or subjugating the christian churches. He didn't want to be a member of the churches, he wanted to rule them.

And the part how he entered into treaties with the vatican, actively sought their support and later proclaimed their endorsement after signing the aforementioned concordat.