Google's "diversity problem" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Antdawg;44946757]Because the lack of diversity in tech workplaces is actually a problem? Hard to see if you're a white male.[/QUOTE] I don't see how a company hiring the most qualified individuals they can find is a problem. Why does it matter what color or gender or whatever those individuals happen to be? Do you want Google to focus more on diversity than quality? Because that sounds like a fantastic way to tank a perfectly profitable company.

[QUOTE=MoonlessNight;44946726]Either that or they're naturally less inclined toward technology and engineering work. It's impossible to assess.[/QUOTE] Though there are numerous stories of women quitting tech jobs because of hostile work environments.

I think it's very easy for people on facepunch which is concentrated on one specific demographic to wonder why this is important but for people who feel like places like Hospitals aren't for them this is an excellent thing to be pushing for and certainly for me I think that seeing more men get involved with this incredibly important nursing field is a hopeful event and ok you can go back to saying who cares now just wanted to put it out there.

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44946795]I don't see how a company hiring the most qualified individuals they can find is a problem. Why does it matter what color or gender or whatever those individuals happen to be? Do you want Google to focus more on diversity than quality? Because that sounds like a fantastic way to tank a perfectly profitable company.[/QUOTE] You're absolutely right, companies should hire the most qualified candidates. But that's not the problem, although for some reason people here love to call on that strawman. No, the problem is in the [I]reason why[/I] men ultimately end up being more qualified than women. It's cultural; at a young age, kids are exposed to such social constructs that discourage them from participating in certain fields, even if that's what they're interested in. So a young girl who loves computers and could potentially end up working in comp-sci ends up not wanting to alienate herself from her peers, so she settles for something she didn't want -- because that's the culturally acceptable/normal thing to do. There's nothing actually [I]preventing[/I] her from sticking with it; the argument isn't that women aren't [I]able[/I] to enter such fields (though some, not myself, may argue that), rather that culturally, they're discouraged from doing so.

[QUOTE=Cructo;44946823]honestly the government should just intervene further in the economy and enforce more quotas to make up for all the years of oppression[/QUOTE] IMO Government intervention should always be an absolute last resort when dealing with the economy and business ethics. I get your sarcasm though.

No wonder they're doing so well.

[QUOTE=Larikang;44946877]Though there are numerous stories of women quitting tech jobs because of hostile work environments.[/QUOTE] I honestly don't hear much about these stories. The last story I remember making the rounds was the Dongle women who tried to get some random men at a convention fired for making sex jokes. [QUOTE=Propane Addict;44946639]How about you just hired people based on their credentials and merits and don't even ask them to tell you their gender or race? How about just assign them an applicant number and don't even look at their name to be even more fair.[/QUOTE] We shouldn't look at ability or the content of ones character. Race should always be a factor. Google should enact a rigid race quota.

[QUOTE=Beetle179;44946896]You're absolutely right, companies should hire the most qualified candidates. But that's not the problem, although for some reason people here love to call on that strawman. No, the problem is in the [I]reason why[/I] men ultimately end up being more qualified than women. It's cultural; at a young age, kids are exposed to such social constructs that discourage them from participating in certain fields, even if that's what they're interested in. So a young girl who loves computers and could potentially end up working in comp-sci ends up not wanting to alienate herself from her peers, so she settles for something she didn't want -- because that's the culturally acceptable/normal thing to do. There's nothing actually [I]preventing[/I] her from sticking with it; the argument isn't that women aren't [I]able[/I] to enter such fields (though some, not myself, may argue that), rather that culturally, they're discouraged from doing so.[/QUOTE] It really does have to do with this, culture is paramount. Maybe there is some variation due to some inherent genetics/brain wiring but it's most likely negligible. You hardly ever see women in tech, engineering, etc, and I don't think that's the the fault of the companies or the hiring process, but more of an ingrained thing comes from slight inbuilt societal sexism that changes interests. I don't (anecdotal evidence I know) see many young women interested in a lot of the more technical fields. Whether that's some inbuilt wiring or a cultural leaning I don't know. Maybe it's both.

[QUOTE=niel12_5D;44946400]You should try an exercise in alternate perspectives and understand that not everyone is raised believing that they can do anything and everything they want to do.[/QUOTE] aand those people would be wrong so teach them? this isnt a problem its just how it turned out why would genders of employees be split 50/50 among any company ever? it sounds like, mathematically uncommon to have such a diversity between genders or anything at all

[QUOTE=endorphinsam;44947032]aand those people would be wrong so teach them? this isnt a problem its just how it turned out why would genders of employees be split 50/50 among any company ever[/QUOTE] To be fair, why not? That's like saying "why would any company be 50% blue eyes, 50% green eyes?" assuming those two were equally common. I mean, there's no intrinsic reason that women can't be good software developers. I personally know lots of good women programmers, I wouldn't say that women as a gender are unable to program.

[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;44947053]To be fair, why not? That's like saying "why would any company be 50% blue eyes, 50% green eyes?" assuming those two were equally common. I mean, there's no intrinsic reason that women can't be good software developers. I personally know lots of good women programmers, i wouldn't say that women as a gender are unable to program.[/QUOTE] i mean it just sounds like a problem with math not a problem with how women feel about themselves or something or how they dont feel welcome in an environment mostly populated by men, technically if that were the case wouldn't that mean that the company would be closer to 99% male? 30% is a pretty big number im sure other big companies have it completely flipped, but it's not a big issue there is it?

[QUOTE=endorphinsam;44947077]i mean it just sounds like a problem with math not a problem with how women feel about themselves or something or how they dont feel welcome in an environment mostly populated by men, technically if that were the case wouldn't that mean that the company would be closer to 99% male? 30% is a pretty big number im sure other big companies have it completely flipped, but it's not a big issue there is it?[/QUOTE] Read into the statistics further. Only 17% of the staff in Google's tech departments are female. The only departments with reasonable equality are their non-tech departments with 48% of staff being female - and that could possibly include anything from customer service to the cooks in the kitchens at the Google workplace.

I honestly don't see the problem, Google only hires the best people not idiots so

[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;44947053]To be fair, why not? That's like saying "why would any company be 50% blue eyes, 50% green eyes?" assuming those two were equally common. I mean, there's no intrinsic reason that women can't be good software developers. I personally know lots of good women programmers, I wouldn't say that women as a gender are unable to program.[/QUOTE] I 100% believe women are just as capable as men at doing any technological field work I still don't think that we'd end up with a 50/50 split at any point in time even if the culture changed to fall in line with our feelings on the subject.

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;44947345]I honestly don't see the problem, Google only hires the best people not idiots so[/QUOTE] This isn't an article about how Google is evil. It's just evidence of a larger problem in tech companies in general: there aren't enough women in technology.

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;44946375]Umm wat people should get involved in what they want I be involve in and not something just because there isn't a lot of people of their race or gender there[/QUOTE] this, because people think that everything SHOULD be a diverse along gender lines when women just don't go into tech, while they are focused in other areas that used to be traditionally male dominated like marketing, management, and other sectors. as for the minority problem, well theres not much that can be done there, its a very specialised field and they only take the top candidates from that already small field.

I should take advantage of being a "minority" to land a job at Google.

[QUOTE=Antdawg;44947176]Read into the statistics further. Only 17% of the staff in Google's tech departments are female. The only departments with reasonable equality are their non-tech departments with 48% of staff being female - and that could possibly include anything from customer service to the cooks in the kitchens at the Google workplace.[/QUOTE] If the percentage is fair according to the quality of the interviewees, what exactly is your problem? Do you want to force a quota? If you want to change anything you have to start at a much lower level, in most tech majors, it's not unusual to see ratios of 1-10.

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;44946893]I think it's very easy for people on facepunch which is concentrated on one specific demographic to wonder why this is important but for people who feel like places like Hospitals aren't for them this is an excellent thing to be pushing for and certainly for me I think that seeing more men get involved with this incredibly important nursing field is a hopeful event and ok you can go back to saying who cares now just wanted to put it out there.[/QUOTE] I have no idea what you're saying. [editline]29th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=endorphinsam;44947032]aand those people would be wrong so teach them? this isnt a problem its just how it turned out why would genders of employees be split 50/50 among any company ever? it sounds like, mathematically uncommon to have such a diversity between genders or anything at all[/QUOTE] I'm very aware of how it turned out. The point of this is Google is like "OK we want our company to reflect the demographics of our society because that's how you foster positive community relations and blah blah HR speak". Now the question is how do we accomplish this and that's a whole 'nother step. Genders should be split 50/50 because that's about where our society is and if there's something stopping it from being 50/50 then we should try to rectify that, even if you personally think that's impossible.

[QUOTE=Beetle179;44946896]You're absolutely right, companies should hire the most qualified candidates. But that's not the problem, although for some reason people here love to call on that strawman. No, the problem is in the [I]reason why[/I] men ultimately end up being more qualified than women. It's cultural; at a young age, kids are exposed to such social constructs that discourage them from participating in certain fields, even if that's what they're interested in. So a young girl who loves computers and could potentially end up working in comp-sci ends up not wanting to alienate herself from her peers, so she settles for something she didn't want -- because that's the culturally acceptable/normal thing to do. There's nothing actually [I]preventing[/I] her from sticking with it; the argument isn't that women aren't [I]able[/I] to enter such fields (though some, not myself, may argue that), rather that culturally, they're discouraged from doing so.[/QUOTE] This is a problem in education and one that should be tackled by the government. It is not Google's responsibility to hire more female employees regardless of their quality just to ensure a 50-50 ratio between men and women, nor is that necessarily a particularly healthy practice in the first place.

Forced racial/gender diversity isn't any better than racism/sexism.

So what, do they want google to force gender and race quotas and turn down people for being white straight cis men. Oh wait that's discrimination too. Just hire people based on their skills not what they have between their legs or what their skin colour is. To tackle the problem without creating more problem we have to tackle gender roles and images of race and how maybe becoming a programmer isn't a particularly girly thing. Or maybe how a low income neighbourhood is going to shape someone to maybe just settle with manual labour instead of something like programming. Discrimination and racism needs to get uprooted so that non-white people get the same opportunities in life. There's no denial that the community you live in shapes you. If you live in a bad neighbourhood of low-income and gang activity and drug dealing and such, it's no surprise that will come around and affect you as a person. Also with how college is in america the pricetags really do limit peoples abilities of going anywhere, so it creates an autonomous evil circle of low income citizens, their parents cant afford education and cant hold a well paying job as a result, leading to their children neither having any money for college, and then they grow up and become parents as well, rinse and repeat. Google isn't the one to be put against the wall, but society as a whole.

Maybe it's turning out this way because woman are encouraged from an early age to not enter STEM fields because they're seen as "men's" fields, just a thought. There are a number of brilliant female mathematicians and engineers but to imply that its "nature" for more women to not want to enter, or to not be capable of entering these professions seems like dangerous thinking without some serious proof. Also, a good number of it could very well be misogyny in those fields. If you're the only female in an advanced mathematics course there's a good chance at least one of the men there will try to put you off from wanting to be a math major. Same with employers, who knows how much sexism goes into the process, both conscious and unconscious.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;44949279]There are a number of brilliant female mathematicians and engineers but to imply that its "nature" for more women to not want to enter, or to not be capable of entering these professions seems like dangerous thinking without some serious proof.[/QUOTE] It's dangerous to assume anything on a politcal, rather than scientific basis. When men and women beheave different in society I'm inclined to believe that it's natural until I see scientific evidence to the contriary.

[QUOTE=MoonlessNight;44949316]It's dangerous to assume anything on a politcal, rather than scientific basis. When men and women beheave different in society I'm inclined to believe that it's natural until I see scientific evidence to the contriary.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but biotruths are practically always dismissed when actual evidence turns up. I'm highly skeptical to there being a "computer-savvines" gene that is more likely to appear in men. The idea that women are just not encouraged to be in these fields seems to be the more realistic reason when applying Occum's Razor.

Google can't really do anything about that though, it's not their fault that the majority of engineers, etc. are white men.

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;44947345]I honestly don't see the problem, Google only hires the best people not idiots so[/QUOTE] Look at the bigger picture and ask yourself why the best people in tech fields tend to be men.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;44949335]Yeah, but biotruths are practically always dismissed when actual evidence turns up. I'm highly skeptical to there being a "computer-savvines" gene that is more likely to appear in men. The idea that women are just not encouraged to be in these fields seems to be the more realistic reason when applying Occum's Razor.[/QUOTE] I consider evolutionary traits a lot more simple than complex, invisible societal norms if Occam's razor is to be applied. No one would dispute that men and women differ physiologically, because it's so easy to observe and meassure. But the brain isn't seperate from the body and has been shaped by evolution just as much.

snip This is pretty stupid though. It's not like there's an easy fix like "hire more women", then you'd see people getting hired on the basis of gender, which is also discrimination.

I believe the problem doesn't lie in how the company does its hiring, it lies in the larger culture of not encouraging more women to go into tech because they are predominantly painted as "mens" fields of work. By forcing some bullshit quota you're only worsening the issue.