Afghanistan President refuses to sign security deal with the US, American troops may have to be with - Polidicks

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];42985681']If they need security, then they can and should apply for UN peacekeeping forces. The job of protecting the world should not come to fall to one nation, especially not one which abuses its position as global hegemon.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Security_Assistance_Force"]ISAF[/URL]?

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;42985611]They will be back in full power within 10 years. You accomplished nothing and thousands of people died for no reason.[/QUOTE] Can I borrow your crystal ball before the Super Bowl?

If the afghani president doesnt want US troops in his country then they really have no business being there. Afghanistan needs help but i wouldnt entrust that responsibilty to one imperialistic nation with vested interests thats run by people of suspect moral integrity

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42986716]If the afghani president doesnt want US troops in his country then they really have no business being there. Afghanistan needs help but i wouldnt entrust that responsibilty to one imperialistic nation with vested interests thats run by people of suspect moral integrity[/QUOTE] ISAF???

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;42985611]They will be back in full power within 10 years. You accomplished nothing and thousands of people died for no reason.[/QUOTE] There's hardly a consensus among most analysts about this issue, what insight did you suddenly get that no one has, let alone as specific a number as 10 years?

$20 says Russia suddenly signs a security agreement with Afghanistan

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;42985611]They will be back in full power within 10 years. You accomplished nothing and thousands of people died for no reason.[/QUOTE] Yes, that will most likely be the result if we leave right now, when our job of protecting the local government so they can strengthen and train adequate replacements is the most critical. Whereas if we follow the plan proposed by the president, giving ten years of low-scale advising so that we can train their incompetent military to professional standards, then maybe they have a shot. But in their current state, no chance.

The deal will end up being signed. I imagine Karzai will be persuaded with some concessions but even if he holds out, a new president is being elected in April anyway

[QUOTE=Aurora93;42983957][url]http://www.vice.com/vice-news/this-is-what-winning-looks-like-part-1[/url][/QUOTE] I've seen this and the only thing I could come to is that they're a bunch of incompetent fucks because we hand hold them, and give them money for pretending to do stuff. Personally, the way I see it, us leaving would be good for both, Afghanistan needs to pick up the shit and get it together, and they'll never do it with us still being there holding their hands.

[QUOTE=Binladen34;42987797]Afghanistan needs to pick up the shit and get it together, and they'll never do it with us still being there holding their hands.[/QUOTE] But they will do it with the Taliban breathing down their necks and reasserting control? Does that seem a likely outcome to you?

We stop asserting control in places we don't need to and spend much less money while doing so. Seems like everyone wins. I just hope the country can stabilize.

[QUOTE=catbarf;42987828]But they will do it with the Taliban breathing down their necks and reasserting control? Does that seem a likely outcome to you?[/QUOTE] Will it get any better with us holding their hand?

[QUOTE=Aurora93;42983957][url]http://www.vice.com/vice-news/this-is-what-winning-looks-like-part-1[/url][/QUOTE] Pure propaganda. Observe as the corporate media machine goes into overdrive in order to stop this.

[QUOTE=Tengil;42988017]Pure propaganda. Observe as the corporate media machine goes into overdrive in order to stop this.[/QUOTE] winter blah blah

[QUOTE=Megafan;42987074]There's hardly a consensus among most analysts about this issue, what insight did you suddenly get that no one has, let alone as specific a number as 10 years?[/QUOTE] Because the area practically didn't change at all! One terrorist group or another, they are not cause of the problem, the fact they stone people for adultery, they don't let women to schools, they are extremely hostile to all other religious groups, and now, hate America with passion greater than ever, too. It's all symptoms. Going there and killing everyone who looks and behaves like a bad guy doesn't address the reason they became a bad guy in the first place. The entire cultural and religious turmoil never changed, the shift in human rights was negligible. There wasn't a generation that would grow up with the idea of tolerance and secularism in mind, and they will be as ready to grab the dusty AK as their fallen uncles were. And I didn't really mean to use 10 years as a specific number as "presence of terrorist force" is nothing you really exactly judge so I didn't bother with valid wording, but I meant that as saying that within a very foreseeable timeframe.

[QUOTE=Binladen34;42987882]Will it get any better with us holding their hand?[/QUOTE] If we're actually training them, sure, why not? Worked for South Korea, worked for China during WW2, worked for the Muj when the Soviets invaded. We've got a pretty good track record when it comes to training and advising. In ten years they'll have a competent military and police and will be in a better position economically to deal with the Taliban. Right now they don't have a chance. So in the meantime, the people can drone on and on about how we shouldn't be playing world police while simultaneously claiming that they do care about the plight of people oppressed by the Taliban, but ultimately it's going to come down to what Afghanistan's own government wants. If they're willing to deal then we'll help them. Otherwise, we don't have much of a choice, and it'll be their own fault when all the work of the last decade is undone.

[QUOTE=catbarf;42987367]Yes, that will most likely be the result if we leave right now, when our job of protecting the local government so they can strengthen and train adequate replacements is the most critical. Whereas if we follow the plan proposed by the president, giving ten years of low-scale advising so that we can train their incompetent military to professional standards, then maybe they have a shot. But in their current state, no chance.[/QUOTE] I agree with this, tho! There still can be stuff done. The wound is still open, the surgery could still be done and the actual ailment healed, but just pulling out will only leave a huge scar over unchanged malformed mess. The fact the president is outright refusing further cooperation with USA is only a proof of this already going downhill form here. They know the counts of insurgents are only rising again at this point, yet they refuse the help offered. Why? Either they see the risk as better option over still having Americans on the spot, which on it's own says something about how does the nation feel about American intervention (which, obviously, can't have a very positive result if it isn't even positively received), or the president is already under pressure or influence of this "force" that was always eager and while it's current capability is questionable, the intent isn't. [editline]26th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Explosions;42986559]Can I borrow your crystal ball before the Super Bowl?[/QUOTE] Dunno man you seem to be doing pretty alright on your own, arguing in favour of action your executive government ordered while, on the other hand, being entirely against it's decision to continue it according to the plan

[QUOTE=person11;42984001]I'd rather have some foreigner with a gun walking around than having my hand cut off for stealing to sate hunger or something. But I don't live there so I don't know.[/QUOTE] Would you really? plus its not like the troublemakers will KOS everyone

[QUOTE=Xmeagol;42989029]Would you really? plus its not like the troublemakers will KOS everyone[/QUOTE] Like I said, I do not live there, so I don't know.

great, now we're going to have a low match-making priority for the next war.

[QUOTE=Binladen34;42987882]Will it get any better with us holding their hand?[/QUOTE] Apparently the ANA commandos and the ANA SF has become very capable under American guidance, so make of that what you will. Like someone else said here, one vice video, while easy to rely on, isn't really indicative of the whole scenario.

If only.

[QUOTE=pentium;42983935]You said that in Vietnam too. All you got out of it was PTSD. Didn't do much better this time around.[/QUOTE] Pffft. We got hit and lost 3,000 people by a group called Al-Qaeda. So we went over and killed 25 times that of those who associate themselves with Al-Qaeda and Al-Qaeda members, including Bin Laden. Worked fine

[QUOTE=TheTalon;42998346]Pffft. We got hit and lost 3,000 people by a group called Al-Qaeda. So we went over and killed 25 times that of those who associate themselves with Al-Qaeda and Al-Qaeda members, including Bin Laden. Worked fine[/QUOTE] Because your K/D is all that matters, right?

let me know how that works out for you mr.Karzai :rolleyes:

Well it's about damn time

Personally i think it's good, the US have done what they can and now the EU-countries can do the finishing touches regarding infrastructure and security then Afghanistan can stand on it's own with a minimal UN presence before getting completely capable of handling the taliban movement on their own. Although i'd imagine it will take a year or two to achieve this.