[QUOTE=Kyle902;43669898]You really don't know what you're talking about do you.
Suicidal people don't kill themselves because they are selfish. They kill themselves because they more often then not see themselves as a problem for others and get into the mindset that killing themselves would make th ings better for people.
Suicide is more often then not a severely misguided attempt at be selfless. Stop getting on your moral high horse.[/QUOTE]
It still doesn't make it any less selfish. It creates a massive amount of problems and destroys those emotionally who really cared about the person.
But as you said, the suicidal person thinks it's a selfless act and doesn't want to be selfish at all, so there's no point in insulting the dead, like some posters here earlier did.
And actually, if the above is the case, telling the suicidal person that what he/she is trying to do is an extremely selfish act might just bring them off if they realize what they're actually doing.
Then again, there are those who are so far into depression that they can't be reasoned with. But at that point, it's anyone's guess what might help.
[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;43670237]It still doesn't make it any less selfish. It creates a massive amount of problems and destroys those emotionally who really cared about the person.
But as you said, the suicidal person thinks it's a selfless act and doesn't want to be selfish at all, so there's no point in insulting the dead, like some posters here earlier did.
And actually, if the above is the case, telling the suicidal person that what he/she is trying to do is an extremely selfish act might just bring them off if they realize what they're actually doing.
Then again, there are those who are so far into depression that they can't be reasoned with. But at that point, it's anyone's guess what might help.[/QUOTE]
If you honestly think a depressed person is thinking logically enough for that argument to work then you clearly have never worked with suicidal depression.
[QUOTE=AntonioR;43668924]How could he leave her alone like that ? I am sad for both of them.[/QUOTE]
Suicide, for me, seems like one of the most selfish things to do.
It's always sad stuff, but I can hardly be sorry for the one who actually did it. I feel immensely sorry for everyone around him and anyone who cared about him, though.
[QUOTE=I am Error;43670284]Suicide, for me, seems like one of the most selfish things to do.
It's always sad stuff, but I can hardly be sorry for the one who actually did it. I feel immensely sorry for everyone around him and anyone who cared about him, though.[/QUOTE]
Yes to a second hand party suicide may seem selfish. To the afflicted person suicide is usually the most selfless act they can think of.
[QUOTE=Aman;43669037]What a selfish c̶u̶n̶t̶ person, honestly.[/QUOTE]
I can't believe there are people in the world that legitimately think this is how things work.
This really shook me today. He was the friend of many of my own friends. He was someone I could have gotten to know. It's scary. Mortality is scary.
From the reactions of people I know, he'll be missed sorely by fans, family and friends alike. My sincere thoughts go out to those people.
This whole goddamn thread is a perfect example on why there is such taboo regarding mental health issues in big parts of society.
Depression is one of the biggest health issues of our time. People dismiss depression as being just sad, just from the fact that it is a sickness of the mind instead of a physical ailment. They preach their miraculous cures such as "cheer up" and "stop being sad".
The mind of a depressed person is a very difficult thing. No matter how you tell them that they are valuable and loved, and bringing examples of good things they've done or great happenings to come, [B]they just can't see it[/B]. Their pain takes the form of intrusive thoughts on their lack of self worth, how much of a burden they are, every failure they have ever done, and how they don't deserve every good thing they get. They can't escape the pain the same way neither you or I can escape the physical pain from a hammer blow to the knee, except with the heavy use of drugs in both cases, but is that what we want?
I'm just speculating here, but when he shot himself, in his (irrational) mind he did it for the sake of others. He actually did [I]the least selfish act[/I] one could make, however twisted that may sound. But hear me out. From his point of view, everyone else would be better off without him. From his point of view, by killing himself he wouldn't be a burden on anyone else ever again. From his point of view, he couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel, or the sorrow everyone around him would suffer. When depression takes it's darkest hold reason is nowhere to be found, and there is only one way out.
But again, I'm only speculating.
[QUOTE=I am Error;43670284]Suicide, for me, seems like one of the most selfish things to do.
It's always sad stuff, but I can hardly be sorry for the one who actually did it. I feel immensely sorry for everyone around him and anyone who cared about him, though.[/QUOTE]
wow. do you have no clue how it works? you think everyone hates you, or youre a burden. its not "hurr im gunna go kill myself to make everyone sad" its the opposite. you think people would be happier with you dead.
[QUOTE=Mike Tyson;43670472]wow. do you have no clue how it works? you think everyone hates you, or youre a burden. its not "hurr im gunna go kill myself to make everyone sad" its the opposite. you think people would be happier with you dead.[/QUOTE]
Yeah people are fucking heartless idiots, they assume everyone is assholes and are just crying for attention or abusing the system or what ever.
[QUOTE=Kinversulath;43669344]Because if there's one thing we know about those with depression, it's that they always think things through clearly and logically.[/QUOTE]
If they're not thinking clearly and logically then it's not their fucking choice to make. This isn't a case of terminal cancer with three months to live or a 110 year old man ready to move on. This is a young person with an entire life to live who, by your own admission, is in the wrong state of mind to be making such dramatic decisions. It's our duty to take that power out of their hands before they hurt themselves or others.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43670515]If they're not thinking clearly and logically then it's not their fucking choice to make. This isn't a case of terminal cancer with three months to live or a 110 year old man ready to move on. This is a young person with an entire life to live who, by your own admission, is in the wrong state of mind to be making such dramatic decisions. It's our duty to take that power out of their hands before they hurt themselves or others.[/QUOTE]
we already do that.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_%28involuntary_psychiatric_hold%29[/url]
Er, moving away from the idiot brigade for a second, do we know what [i]caused[/i] the depression?
Shit like this brings back bad memories for me.
RIP.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43670515]If they're not thinking clearly and logically then it's not their fucking choice to make. This isn't a case of terminal cancer with three months to live or a 110 year old man ready to move on. This is a young person with an entire life to live who, by your own admission, is in the wrong state of mind to be making such dramatic decisions. It's our duty to take that power out of their hands before they hurt themselves or others.[/QUOTE]
No, fuck that! It is up to us to help them!
First off, how the hell are we supposed to spot depressed people? Most of them walk around without talking to anyone about it because a) they don't want to make a fuss, or b) they don't think others will understand. Second, who should decide when to "take the power out of their hands"? How on earth would one even go on about doing that? Straight-jacket into a padded cell? No, that will only reverberate and probably enhance their depression. It would be equal to dehumanizing them, saying that they can't even handle their own lives. How on earth do you think a depressed person would react to that?
We need to inform people that it is OK to be depressed, and that it is OK to talk about it and to seek professional help.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;43670062]I will never understand the sheer audacity of people to call suicide victims names on internet message boards. Even if you think they are being selfish, which itself belies a massive ignorance about depression and suicide, can't you atleast have the presence of mind to not speak it?[/QUOTE]
I know enough about suicide and depression to know that a depressed person isn't in the right frame of mind, and that these people can't be trusted to make such decisions. I'm not going to let someone kill themselves for being too mentally warped to think clearly otherwise, that just makes me the selfish one for taking the easy way out. Under no circumstances is suicide the proper answer to depression.
Well, that came out of nowhere.
[QUOTE=Kazumi;43670566]No, fuck that! It is up to us to help them!
First off, how the hell are we supposed to spot depressed people? Most of them walk around without talking to anyone about it because a) they don't want to make a fuss, or b) they don't think others will understand. Second, who should decide when to "take the power out of their hands"? How on earth would one even go on about doing that? Straight-jacket into a padded cell? No, that will only reverberate and probably enhance their depression. It would be equal to dehumanizing them, saying that they can't even handle their own lives. How on earth do you think a depressed person would react to that?
We need to inform people that it is OK to be depressed, and that it is OK to talk about it and to seek professional help.[/QUOTE]
I don't know about Sweden but in California the state has the power to put people in an involuntary 3 day psychiatric hold for being
A. A danger to themselves
B. Danger to others
C. Gravely disabled.
A lot of the time the professional help are the people who put people on these 51 50 holds so a lot of people in the mental health system don't seek out professional help or they lie during sessions so they don't get hospitalized in a psych ward (not a fun experience, trust me.)
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43670578]I know enough about suicide and depression to know that a depressed person isn't in the right frame of mind, and that these people can't be trusted to make such decisions. I'm not going to let someone kill themselves for being too mentally warped to think clearly otherwise, that just makes me the selfish one for taking the easy way out. Under no circumstances is suicide the proper answer to depression.[/QUOTE]
No one here is saying "suicide is a good idea", only that "committing suicide does not make someone an asshole."
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;43670559]Er, moving away from the idiot brigade for a second, do we know what [i]caused[/i] the depression?[/QUOTE]
Depression isn't always linked to a direct cause. It could be a disturbance to his brain chemistry, like the monoamine oxidase ensyme being on full blast, lowering levels of epinephrine, norepinephrine, dopamine, etc.
[QUOTE=Sokrates;43668925]Video of him together with his wife
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUwCByWnU7s[/media][/QUOTE]
oh god
courtesy of 'sir runk'
[QUOTE=Kazumi;43670566]No, fuck that! It is up to us to help them!
First off, how the hell are we supposed to spot depressed people? Most of them walk around without talking to anyone about it because a) they don't want to make a fuss, or b) they don't think others will understand. Second, who should decide when to "take the power out of their hands"? How on earth would one even go on about doing that? Straight-jacket into a padded cell? No, that will only reverberate and probably enhance their depression. It would be equal to dehumanizing them, saying that they can't even handle their own lives. How on earth do you think a depressed person would react to that?
We need to inform people that it is OK to be depressed, and that it is OK to talk about it and to seek professional help.[/QUOTE]
I've called the cops on people who straight up told me they were going to kill themselves before. My rule of thumb is "if they tell you a plan, like 'I'm going to take a rope and I'm going to hang myself,' I stop fucking around and let the professionals deal with it." I'll do anything to stop a suicidal person, as long as that person is no longer an immediate danger to themselves or others, even if it means padded cell time (as if it would ever come to that.) I've lost too many people to suicide to do anything else.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;43670559]Er, moving away from the idiot brigade for a second, do we know what [i]caused[/i] the depression?[/QUOTE]
The answer to this question would be the source of nobel prizes and shit
depression is one of the world's largest contributors to lost productivity
[QUOTE=Kazumi;43670630]Depression isn't always linked to a direct cause. It could be a disturbance to his brain chemistry, like the monoamine oxidase ensyme being on full blast, lowering levels of epinephrine, norepinephrine, dopamine, etc.[/QUOTE]
Even if there is a reason the afflicted person may not even know what that reason is anymore. A lot of depressed people end up repressing memories as a coping mechanism.
[editline]25th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43670645]I've called the cops on people who straight up told me they were going to kill themselves before. My rule of thumb is "if they tell you a plan, like 'I'm going to take a rope and I'm going to hang myself,' I stop fucking around and let the professionals deal with it." I'll do anything to stop a suicidal person, as long as that person is no longer an immediate danger to themselves or others, even if it means padded cell time (as if it would ever come to that.) I've lost too many people to suicide to do anything else.[/QUOTE]
An inherent problem with involuntary psych holds is that people don't seek out help if they match the criteria because they know they'll be put on a hold.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;43670606]No one here is saying "suicide is a good idea", only that "committing suicide does not make someone an asshole."[/QUOTE]
But it's intrinsically selfish, even if they don't understand they are being selfish in the first place; a lot of the times, they're too mentally warped to truly understand, or maybe they do understand that it will hurt others but they just don't care because they just want it all to go away. Calling someone selfish isn't calling them an asshole, it's admission of a core problem that compounds with tons of other mental problems that they can't see clearly pass the haze of ennui and other such complex emotions that are hard to define with words.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43670716]But it's intrinsically selfish, even if they don't understand they are being selfish in the first place; a lot of the times, they're too mentally warped to truly understand, or maybe they do understand that it will hurt others but they just don't care because they just want it all to go away. Calling someone selfish isn't calling them an asshole, it's admission of a core problem that compounds with tons of other mental problems that they can't see clearly pass the haze of ennui and other such complex emotions that are hard to define with words.[/QUOTE]
But then to call someone in that state selfish would validate their beliefs.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43670578]I know enough about suicide and depression to know that a depressed person isn't in the right frame of mind, and that these people can't be trusted to make such decisions. I'm not going to let someone kill themselves for being too mentally warped to think clearly otherwise, that just makes me the selfish one for taking the easy way out. Under no circumstances is suicide the proper answer to depression.[/QUOTE]
Indeed, they are not in the right frame of mind. But stop and think for a moment on the potential backlash that might have. Are we to basically make depression illegal? People that are taken into care could end up more self destructive as they might become even more ashamed of themselves and their condition. Or people would be [I]even less[/I] inclined to talk about their feelings, opening up and seeking help, potentially even increasing the number of sudden suicides.
Depressed people need care and understanding, not to have their free will taken from them.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;43670597]I don't know about Sweden but in California the state has the power to put people in an involuntary 3 day psychiatric hold for being
A. A danger to themselves
B. Danger to others
C. Gravely disabled.
A lot of the time the professional help are the people who put people on these 51 50 holds so a lot of people in the mental health system don't seek out professional help or they lie during sessions so they don't get hospitalized in a psych ward (not a fun experience, trust me.)[/QUOTE]
That is just awful.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43670716]But it's intrinsically selfish, even if they don't understand they are being selfish in the first place; a lot of the times, they're too mentally warped to truly understand, or maybe they do understand that it will hurt others but they just don't care because they just want it all to go away. Calling someone selfish isn't calling them an asshole, it's admission of a core problem that compounds with tons of other mental problems that they can't see clearly pass the haze of ennui and other such complex emotions that are hard to define with words.[/QUOTE]
This is the wonderful self feeding loop of depression. It makes you do things that hurt other people, then you realize you're hurting people which makes it worse which makes you hurt people more.
[QUOTE=Kazumi;43670752]Indeed, they are not in the right frame of mind. But stop and think for a moment on the potential backlash that might have. Are we to basically make depression illegal? People that are taken into care could end up more self destructive as they might become even more ashamed of themselves and their condition. Or people would be [I]even less[/I] inclined to talk about their feelings, opening up and seeking help, potentially even increasing the number of sudden suicides.
Depressed people need care and understanding, not to have their free will taken from them.
That is just awful.[/QUOTE]
If their "free will" involves murdering themselves then under no circumstances should they have it. People who are properly treated "could" become worse but they also "could" become better. I can promise you that professional care and treatment will have a higher chance of recovery from depression than a bullet to the head.
[QUOTE=Kazumi;43670752]
That is just awful.[/QUOTE]
This is me speaking from experience too.
If they consider you a 51 50 they'll handcuff you and throw you in the back of a police car or they'll put on in restraints on a stretcher and put you in an ambulance.
I got the police car treatment in front of the entire school. You can guess what that did to me mentally and socially.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;43670740]But then to call someone in that state selfish would validate their beliefs.[/QUOTE]
So we should lie to them? I think they deserve a bit better than that. Lying to them will only make them devalue themselves in their own eyes even further. i.e. "Maybe I don't deserve the truth." Understanding that you have a problem is the very first step to recovery.
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