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[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31211910] If it makes you feel good to see another person happy, you are being inherently selfish as the reason you did it was to make yourself feel good. [/QUOTE] So I give something of mine to a person so that person can have something, which is a not a selfish action, means it's a selfish action. Okay, Sobotnik, you keep on thinking that in your little world of assbackwards logic. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] I risk my life to save another, give something of mine for another, maybe even lie to make a person feel better about something like a meal or object, all these actions, according to you, which all are selfless, are somehow selfish. If you honestly think that, then you're probably brainless. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] Not that you haven't proven that already.

[QUOTE=amute;31212017]So I give something of mine to a person so that person can have something, which is a not a selfish action, means it's a selfish action. Okay, Sobotnik, you keep on thinking that in your little world of assbackwards logic. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] I risk my life to save another, give something of mine for another, maybe even lie to make a person feel better about something like a meal or object, all these actions, according to you, which all are selfless, are somehow selfish. If you honestly think that, then you're probably brainless. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] Not that you haven't proven that already.[/QUOTE] You do not seem to fully understand the point I am making. What I said is that in some way, by doing such an action it will benefit you in the end. If you save somebodies life, it could be because you want them to stay alive because you like them. Therefore it isn't for their good, its because you can't stand the idea of somebody you like dying. If you make somebody feel better, it could stop them from eventually committing suicide due to depression, or harming you. You may not think it at the time but that is the general idea. Monasteries are an excellent example. The men within gave up everything and lived modest lives, living within their means and donating profits and excess to those in need, by doing such these men thought they were guaranteed a nice spot in heaven.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31212619]You do not seem to fully understand the point I am making. What I said is that in some way, by doing such an action it will benefit you in the end. If you save somebodies life, it could be because you want them to stay alive because you like them. Therefore it isn't for their good, its because you can't stand the idea of somebody you like dying. If you make somebody feel better, it could stop them from eventually committing suicide due to depression, or harming you. You may not think it at the time but that is the general idea. Monasteries are an excellent example. The men within gave up everything and lived modest lives, living within their means and donating profits and excess to those in need, by doing such these men thought they were guaranteed a nice spot in heaven.[/QUOTE] Like I said before, this is bullshit. There's more that goes into people's decisions than direct consequences. The fact that you can't even understand that means you're probably a sociopath.

[QUOTE=amute;31212017]So I give something of mine to a person so that person can have something, which is a not a selfish action, means it's a selfish action. Okay, Sobotnik, you keep on thinking that in your little world of assbackwards logic. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] I risk my life to save another, give something of mine for another, maybe even lie to make a person feel better about something like a meal or object, all these actions, according to you, which all are selfless, are somehow selfish. If you honestly think that, then you're probably brainless. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] Not that you haven't proven that already.[/QUOTE] If any of those actions relieve guilt, make you feel pleasure or happiness, or you get some gain from it, even if you're giving, there's a selfish aspect to the action. Altruism to me is still mildly selfish, but outward motivations apply.

[QUOTE=Teracotta;31198100]Just a generalization, like the rest of this thread, lazy. The vast majority of poor people are poor because they don't go out and look for a better job. They say, "Hey cool, McDonald's is hiring." They put out minimal effort, they get minimal everything in return.[/QUOTE] McDonalds isn't hiring in this economy There are people who would quite literally kill for a job at McDonalds [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Xenocidebot;31200719]Not everyone who disagrees with moral absolutism and your personal theory of human motivation is an angsty nihilist, fuck. You're behaving like the enemy, put on your rationality hat.[/QUOTE] Woah you think I'm a moral absolutist That's crazy

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31212619]You do not seem to fully understand the point I am making. What I said is that in some way, by doing such an action it will benefit you in the end. If you save somebodies life, it could be because you want them to stay alive because you like them. Therefore it isn't for their good, its because you can't stand the idea of somebody you like dying. If you make somebody feel better, it could stop them from eventually committing suicide due to depression, or harming you. You may not think it at the time but that is the general idea. Monasteries are an excellent example. The men within gave up everything and lived modest lives, living within their means and donating profits and excess to those in need, by doing such these men thought they were guaranteed a nice spot in heaven.[/QUOTE] You are totally missing the point of living. I fully believe we should all do our best to help other people in the short time we have to live, to make this a better world for ALL of us. There are a bunch of instances where I've put others before myself and have suffered for it, you're telling me this was a selfish act? So yeah, I'm confused. I don't know how old you are but maybe you should see the world a bit before you make such blanket statements. oh and stop trying to be a robot

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;31213320]If any of those actions relieve guilt, make you feel pleasure or happiness, or you get some gain from it, even if you're giving, there's a selfish aspect to the action. Altruism to me is still mildly selfish, but outward motivations apply.[/QUOTE] Again, if you are giving, and being selfless, then it's not fucking selfish now is it? it's contradictory. Selfish is a state of being, it's not receiving something however small. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;31212619] If you save somebodies life, it could be because you want them to stay alive because you like them. Therefore it isn't for their good, its because you can't stand the idea of somebody you like dying.[/QUOTE] You CANNOT be fucking serious.

[QUOTE=amute;31213656]Again, if you are giving, and being selfless, then it's not fucking selfish now is it? it's contradictory. Selfish is a state of being, it's not receiving something however small.[/QUOTE] Maybe we define selfish differently, selfishness is just inward motivation.

I refuse to believe a person can be as fucking mental as you. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;31213709]Maybe we define selfish differently, selfishness is just inward motivation.[/QUOTE] And selflessness is a fish. You can't just make up your own definition for a word and expect others to accept it. What the fuck is the point of stretching the definition as far as humanly possible. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] It's pretty insulting to say anybody who does fucking anything to help another person out of sympathy or the goodness of their hear means they're still selfish bastards. It's disgusting and flat out stupid to say that. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] This is shit I would hear Ayn Rand say.

Take the people working in the Fukushima reactors for instance...yeah those bastards are real selfish sacrificing their lives to help stop radiation from spreading even further.

[QUOTE=amute;31213715]I refuse to believe a person can be as fucking mental as you. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] And selflessness is a fish. You can't just make up your own definition for a word and expect others to accept it. What the fuck is the point of stretching the definition as far as humanly possible. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] It's pretty insulting to say anybody who does fucking anything to help another person out of sympathy or the goodness of their hear means they're still selfish bastards. It's disgusting and flat out stupid to say that. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] This is shit I would hear Ayn Rand say.[/QUOTE] See, it's funny because I never once said "selfish bastard". You did. I never once implied that the selfishness was wrong, or bad, or that had any negative connotations. You did. It's disgusting and flat out stupid to say that. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=deathstarboot;31213813]Take the people working in the Fukushima reactors for instance...yeah those bastards are real selfish sacrificing their lives to help stop radiation from spreading even further.[/QUOTE] No, that's a legitimately good example of altruism, but how many acts are like that exactly? But there's also the aspect of, think of how they'd feel knowing if they left, the guilt, and the incredibly shitty feelings that would follow with that? I think that they understood that, and made a decision to avoid that. It's still a good thing they did so.

[QUOTE=Teracotta;31196384] Thought process of someone who doesn't work for stuff. [/QUOTE] Oh if only you knew. Try spending your summers and other school breaks freezing your ass off while working in the stench of rotten seafood, doing monotonic work that robots can easily do. Been there, done that for a couple of years. You've just been lucky.

Except Selfishness is a pretty negative term.

[QUOTE=amute;31214021]Except Selfishness is a pretty negative term.[/QUOTE] because you define it so or you have the connotations to, that doesn't make it so.

I can't find any definition anywhere that says everything ever person does is selfish. The only people who say that is you and sobotnik.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;31213326]Woah you think I'm a moral absolutist That's crazy[/QUOTE] Give me another way to interpret your statements about "everyone's best interest" and that "people don't always (or even usually) act in their best interest" without concluding you have an absolute standard of what is the "best interest" of all people. Right now you look like a utilitarian absolutist. I have no idea what you actually are, I'm just meeting assumptions with assumptions. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;31214202]because you define it so or you have the connotations to, that doesn't make it so.[/QUOTE] Most dictionaries consider it "[URL="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish?show=0&t=1311110100"]excessive[/URL]" self-interest. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;31213709]Maybe we define selfish differently, selfishness is just inward motivation.[/QUOTE] How you're using it most people would instead use [URL="http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v2n1/samaritan.html"]self-interest.[/URL] [QUOTE=amute;31214235]I can't find any definition anywhere that says everything ever person does is selfish. The only people who say that is you and sobotnik.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/selfishness.html"]Ayn Rand said that.[/URL] And if we're using her definitions or explanations of anything, we've got problems. I love how that shit's worded like a new-age medicine pamphlet.

[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;31214607]Give me another way to interpret your statements about "everyone's best interest" and that "people don't always (or even usually) act in their best interest" without concluding you have an absolute standard of what is the "best interest" of all people. Right now you look like a utilitarian absolutist. I have no idea what you actually are, I'm just meeting assumptions with assumptions.[/QUOTE] Well obviously there is a best course of action that everyone can take, that doesn't contradict with my belief in moral relativism because what you believe is the morally right action doesn't necessarily have to be the one that's in your best interest generally people want to do what they think is right, and that isn't always what's best for them, and that's why I don't believe that everyone is inherently selfish do you get what I'm saying now or am I still missing something

[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;31214607]Give me another way to interpret your statements about "everyone's best interest" and that "people don't always (or even usually) act in their best interest" without concluding you have an absolute standard of what is the "best interest" of all people. Right now you look like a utilitarian absolutist. I have no idea what you actually are, I'm just meeting assumptions with assumptions. Most dictionaries consider it "[URL="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish?show=0&t=1311110100"]excessive[/URL]" self-interest. How you're using it most people would instead use [URL="http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v2n1/samaritan.html"]self-interest.[/URL] [URL="http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/selfishness.html"]Ayn Rand said that.[/URL] And if we're using her definitions or explanations of anything, we've got problems. I love how that shit's worded like a new-age medicine pamphlet.[/QUOTE] I mentioned earlier that line of thinking sounds like Ayn Rand.

[QUOTE=amute;31216011]I mentioned earlier that line of thinking sounds like Ayn Rand.[/QUOTE] Well good for you but i'm not trying to parrot her or be like her and I don't believe what she says. It's like you guys find an irrelevant detail aside from the argument and you beat that dead horse. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Xenocidebot;31214607]Give me another way to interpret your statements about "everyone's best interest" and that "people don't always (or even usually) act in their best interest" without concluding you have an absolute standard of what is the "best interest" of all people. Right now you look like a utilitarian absolutist. I have no idea what you actually are, I'm just meeting assumptions with assumptions. Most dictionaries consider it "[URL="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish?show=0&t=1311110100"]excessive[/URL]" self-interest. How you're using it most people would instead use [URL="http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v2n1/samaritan.html"]self-interest.[/URL] [URL="http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/selfishness.html"]Ayn Rand said that.[/URL] And if we're using her definitions or explanations of anything, we've got problems. I love how that shit's worded like a new-age medicine pamphlet.[/QUOTE] Then call it self interest but I still mean the same bloody thing.

I see it as that all peoples actions will be those that try to benefit themselves in the end. It's not bad, it's just what you see is in your self interest. Some are dictators whom see it that killing random people is in their self interest. (Some hated certain groups of people, killing them purely in their own interest) Other dictators would see it that improvement of the nation and people within is in their self interest (Like Franco or Mussolini) Then there is the more altruistic example with monks or charities (Many charities are religious based) whom wish to help people in life so as to clean their soul of sin. Some philanthropists (Such as Carnegie) would improve lives of people for reasons including a seat in heaven, or history remembering him as a great man who cared for people, rather than a cold hearted tycoon who shoved babies into furnaces.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;31216070]Well good for you but i'm not trying to parrot her or be like her and I don't believe what she says. It's like you guys find an irrelevant detail aside from the argument and you beat that dead horse. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] Then call it self interest but I still mean the same bloody thing.[/QUOTE] I'm not really making an argument here beyond "what the fuck guys, you're all making semantic mistakes and arguing about weird shit." Whatever you're on about I put no stake in I'm just getting you on the same page with regards to terminology. [QUOTE=Zeke129;31214958]do you get what I'm saying now or am I still missing something[/QUOTE] Yeah I understood none of that but I'll take your word for it that you're a relativist.

[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;31216367] Yeah I understood none of that but I'll take your word for it that you're a relativist.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure I'm a relativist considering I once spent 8 pages bashing Ayn Rand

[QUOTE=Zeke129;31216542]I'm pretty sure I'm a relativist considering I once spent 8 pages bashing Ayn Rand[/QUOTE] Dedication, get this man a medal pronto.

Wait, people actually read Ayn Rand? She's terrible on a basic literary level. She managed to make violent sex boring while at the same time writing gloriously flat characters. It's Twilight for Freepers. Say what you will about Objectivism, but Ayn is a terrible writer.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31216333]I see it as that all peoples actions will be those that try to benefit themselves in the end. It's not bad, it's just what you see is in your self interest. Some are dictators whom see it that killing random people is in their self interest. (Some hated certain groups of people, killing them purely in their own interest) Other dictators would see it that improvement of the nation and people within is in their self interest (Like Franco or Mussolini) Then there is the more altruistic example with monks or charities (Many charities are religious based) whom wish to help people in life so as to clean their soul of sin. Some philanthropists (Such as Carnegie) would improve lives of people for reasons including a seat in heaven, or history remembering him as a great man who cared for people, rather than a cold hearted tycoon who shoved babies into furnaces.[/QUOTE] Why are you so fucking insistent on making it seem like all people are inherently selfish when you know damn well they're not. You have to be fucking outright retarded to think that. Tell you what Sobotnik, try actually talking to people as opposed to reading Atlas Shrugged and thinking all humans are exactly the same. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;31216070]Well good for you but i'm not trying to parrot her or be like her and I don't believe what she says. It's like you guys find an irrelevant detail aside from the argument and you beat that dead horse. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] Then call it self interest but I still mean the same bloody thing.[/QUOTE] You're the one nitpicking the fuck out of the word. For fucks sake, you don't even know what it means.

[QUOTE=amute;31217159]Why are you so fucking insistent on making it seem like all people are inherently selfish when you know damn well they're not. You have to be fucking outright retarded to think that. Tell you what Sobotnik, try actually talking to people as opposed to reading Atlas Shrugged and thinking all humans are exactly the same.[/QUOTE] It's certainly a pessimistic view, but it's not entirely unjustifiable. Look at all the people in the Tea Party who truly and honestly believe that it's communism to pay for universal healthcare.

[QUOTE=amute;31217159]Why are you so fucking insistent on making it seem like all people are inherently selfish when you know damn well they're not. You have to be fucking outright retarded to think that. Tell you what Sobotnik, try actually talking to people as opposed to reading Atlas Shrugged and thinking all humans are exactly the same. You're the one nitpicking the fuck out of the word. For fucks sake, you don't even know what it means.[/QUOTE] I have never head of Ayn Rand before, yet you assume I have. However I read up on her and Objectivism does seem to be somewhat interesting, I prefer the mindset of the late Victorians and their view of the world, tending to be pragmatic. Unfortunately after the world wars this view of the world was ruined.

Your sociopathy seems to compliment Ayn Rand quite well, Sobotnik.

[QUOTE=amute;31218683]Your sociopathy seems to compliment Ayn Rand quite well, Sobotnik.[/QUOTE] But I don't like capitalism.

[QUOTE=amute;31218683]Your sociopathy seems to compliment Ayn Rand quite well, Sobotnik.[/QUOTE] His philosophy is the polar opposite of Ayn Rand you nonce [editline]20th July 2011[/editline] objectivism says that individuals have absolute right and their government should have a minimal say in things authoritarianism says that the government owns everyone and fuck you if you think otherwise