Venezuela president declares emergency, cites U.S., domestic 'threats'
53 replies, posted
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;50320111]I think the whole debate about socialism in these threads has more to do with what each person thinks socialism is[/QUOTE]
I think each ideology has its merits and flaws. They both have their times and places. Socialism I do not think is a good idea in US due to how many competing interests there are. In other places? May do a lot of good.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50320366]when the argument comes up about a link between socialism and venezuela's issues, it often boils down to 'solely', yes. people keep turning it into a chicken and egg problem - did the corruption cause their current take on socialism? did their current take on socialism cause corruption? (one look at a history book shows the answer is a tad more complicated)
you gave a generalized response to the kind of argument you usually see in these threads, i gave a generalized response as well, and now you're getting all defensive because of it. except you also stooped down to generalizing the people who [I]make [/I]the arguments as well, which is just petty
[editline]14th May 2016[/editline]
wanna talk strawmen? right back at you[/QUOTE]
That's not a strawman. I wasn't referencing a specific post and then changing the argument half way.
How do you expect me to rebut your point that I was saying its "solely socialism"? How is it possible to rebut that when its not something I said, or believe.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50320601]That's not a strawman. I wasn't referencing a specific post and then changing the argument half way.
How do you expect me to rebut your point that I was saying its "solely socialism"? How is it possible to rebut that when its not something I said, or believe.[/QUOTE]
call it an ad hominem then, or whatever smart-sounding word defines 6th grade-tier insults
like i said, it was a point directed towards the general sentiment seen in these kinds of threads more than anything. i've already said this though, and luckily we're on a forum, meaning you can just re-read my post instead of having me spell it out for you a second time
shit management and corruption has more to do with countries fucking up than ideology does
puerto rico is shitting the bed right now too due to incompetence and shortsightedness, and they're capitalist
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50319197]No, its not obvious. People will still deny the link between the state's policies and Venezuela's current problems (usually while wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt).
But fine. What else do you want to talk about?[/QUOTE]
No, it's because of the corruption of the Venezuelan government? Why? Because if the government controls industries and the economy, and the government becomes corrupt, guess fucking what happens. There is a link between the socialist policies of Venezuela and it's economy, but it's an indirect one. This is a corruption problem, not a fucking socialist one.
You know, I find Venezuela's reasonings for their downfall kinda funny at first, but at the end of the day, it's just sad, and just goes to show that don't want to admit their wrongdoings.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50320877]No, it's because of the corruption of the Venezuelan government? Why? Because if the government controls industries and the economy, and the government becomes corrupt, guess fucking what happens. There is a link between the socialist policies of Venezuela and it's economy, but it's an indirect one. This is a corruption problem, not a fucking socialist one.[/QUOTE]
its both tbh
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50320877]No, it's because of the corruption of the Venezuelan government? Why? Because if the government controls industries and the economy, and the government becomes corrupt, guess fucking what happens. There is a link between the socialist policies of Venezuela and it's economy, but it's an indirect one. This is a corruption problem, not a fucking socialist one.[/QUOTE]
You can't divorce the policy problems that Venezuela has from its corruption. If all, they just resonate with eachother and create a positive feedback loop. Shit like currency control, which I have spoken at length before, literally breeds corruption, but it's a huge reason why the Venezuelan economy is like it is. And that's not something new, Chavez implemented it in 2003.
Venezuela has always been corrupt and socialist in a way, the previous governments of the so called "4th Republic" were all ran by social democrats and a fair amount of Venezuela's social programs, like free public education from pre-school to college and public health care were started during that time. These are not the policies that are being discussed, as these were ALWAYS part of the country despite what Chavez may claim. What I am so opposed against, and what I've always blamed as the reason why Venezuela has collapsed, is it's adamant stance against private enterprise and investment. Nobody wants to invest in Venezuela because it's horribly risky to do so, and that, coupled with the extremely poorly ran publicly owned corporations and services, make Venezuela an extremely hostile place to do business in.
Hence, no food, medicine or toilet paper because they have to be imported because the companies that produced them no longer do business in the country, but those importations are controlled by the government through currency controls, and the money assigned for those importations vanishes through corrupt politicians. I've said it before and I've said it again, this is a model, you can apply this model to any problem Venezuela has.
Fuck Maduro. Fuck Roussef. Cunts, the lot of them.
[editline]14th May 2016[/editline]
Also, can't believe people in here still have the gall to say "but socialism per se isn't wrong, it's just that [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman]Venezuela's socialism isn't real socialism![/url]", even to Venezuelans on this forum, who are seeing first hand how their country has been rotting for the last 17 years.
Specially from the comfort of your 1st world homes. It feels extremely patronizing and downright insulting at times.
If anything, we could discuss how (apparently) wonderful Socialism is, without resorting to fallacious arguments like it usually happens.
Like, it isn't a left-wing/right-wing problem. It isn't even a "socialism is bad problem". It's a policy problem, the Venezuelan government has done some incredibly stupid policies, based on flawed anti-capitalist logic, shit like believing inflation is due to speculation is the reasoning behind why many of those decisions were taken.
This is why I say you can't divorce one thing from the other. The government is both inept AND corrupt.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50321834][quotes][/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, what? I'm stating the fact that on a previous thread, I've linked to someone who knows what he's talking about, who can explain it better than I ever could, and was quickly dismissed by [I]people who apparently read too much[/I] and know better than someone who lived under a socialist (Soviet) regime. How amusing is that.
Taking pride in an arbitrary opinion, and believeing that they understand a subject even better than someone who actually lived through it, can be quite patronizing. I sure as hell wouldn't be arguing to Gordon Ramsay about the best way to make a bowl with cereal; no matter what I know, or [i]think[/i] I know, is completely pointless when discussing it to Gordon Fuckin' Ramsay, it's simple as that.
[editline]14th May 2016[/editline]
Back on topic, I can't help but think that now that Brazil has pretty much a provisional government, Venezuela is definitely headed the same way, but Maduro will go out kicking and screaming.
I can only imagine what his supporters would say about that.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;50321859]Like, it isn't a left-wing/right-wing problem. It isn't even a "socialism is bad problem". It's a policy problem, the Venezuelan government has done some incredibly stupid policies, based on flawed anti-capitalist logic, shit like believing inflation is due to speculation is the reasoning behind why many of those decisions were taken.
This is why I say you can't divorce one thing from the other. The government is both inept AND corrupt.[/QUOTE]
At least in a corrupt capitalist government you have business and industry creating jobs. It's also in the best interest of the businesses for every to have extra money to spend as it means they get richer.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50319498]the problem is literally the fact that the [B]socialist[/B] government has been enacting [B]socialist[/B] policies which intend to dismantle the fundamental aspects of the "capitalist" economy and create a [B]socialist[/B] society in which the means of production are owned publicly instead of privately (i.e the bulk of economic activity is handled by the state and/or communes)
if venezuela wasn't corrupt and actually had a functioning government and economy it would have still encountered more or less the same problems that have been introduced on the basis of [B]socialist[/B] principles
how we do know this? because while venezuela had problems at the end of the last century, a reasonably competent centrist (or even moderate left) government could have overcome as has happened in many other latin american nations in the past 17 years (many of which underwent economic transition, a decline in inequality, and various other improvements).
why is it that a government that blatantly calls itself [B]socialist[/B], was supported by the same demographics socialists rely on, introduced policies much like those in the hard left [B]socialist[/B] countries (like maoist china, the ussr, yugoslavia, etc), and even was given considerable support by [B]socialist[/B] countries (like cuba) and other numerous organisations and individuals (does anybody remember how micheal moore gushed mad over him for providing free healthcare and education and shit?) somehow isn't socialist?
socialism has been and continues to be an utterly miserable failure supported by an ever declining number of crackpots who believe that despite virtually every instance of a [B]socialist[/B]implementation resulting in a brutal civil war, famine, economic collapse, etc it still isn't responsible for these problems
venezuelan posters have been mentioning on this forum for years how their country has been slowly falling apart due to these [B]socialist[/B] policies and even now on the brink of famine and the entire electrical grid shutting down, when kidnappings are daily and the country is half run by druglords while the zika epidemic overwhelms a crippled healthcare system. there are posters who have fled or are trying to leave the country because of 17 years of this shit.
venezuela is now a complete shithole because of socialism, and while that doesn't excuse right wing retards in the USA who claim that public healthcare or minimum wages will destroy america, neither does it excuse people who are kidding themselves that venezuela is just another exception in a long list of exceptions[/QUOTE]
Putting socialism in bold doesn't make your argument stronger.
I think that posts like this happen because of a single reason. I don't think you, Sobotnik, or in fact most of the people here, especially those living in the US/UK/AUS/NZ/CAN, etc. really understand the problem, and you never will. It's not [I]your[/I] fault, it's just what it is.
Let's talk about corruption. I don't think you understand what it's like to live in a corrupt country. We're not talking "oh but the rich put money in offshore banks and gerrymandering and lobbying and etc. etc."
I'm talking about countries corrupt down to the bone, like Venezuela was and many others are. I hail from Bulgaria - a small Eastern European country that's currently dealing with a lot of its own shit, but let me shed you a quick, summarized look of how corruption spreads from the top down until it reaches every avenue of life and how it drains money to the point where I'm not at all surprised at the situation Venezuela is in.
Have you ever bribed someone? I doubt you have, and living in the UK for the past two years, I am almost certain that you never will, at least not here. So humor me here:
Can you even fathom an existence where every single encounter with the government you have, down to the bottom of the rung, down to being stopped for a traffic check is handled with a bribe? Inspectors came to check if people are smoking inside the premises of your club? Pay them off. You got stopped for speeding? Slip a 20 with your documents. You got caught with a bag of weed as a teenager? Hope you have that money you were saving up on hand cause if not, it'll be your parents who'll have to pay it for you. You're trying to sue someone and the case takes forever? Bring a gift for the clerk and you might just get put on the top of the pile... Under everyone else that paid more, of course.
I'm not going to bother listing every single instance of corruption that I've witnessed in one way or another, but I'm trying to make you understand how prevalent it can become. Just to drive the point in and I hope you believe me here, because this isn't an exaggeration: Every single time I've been in a car back home in my entire life, from when I could form memories, up until now, and that car was stopped by the police, they've been paid off. I literally do not remember a single instance where the driver was ticketed and a fine was paid through official channels.
So now, with this newly acquired knowledge of how corruption can ingrain itself into the core of a country, you might understand how Venezuela failed. And you know why? Because Bulgaria hasn't failed yet. Even we aren't [I]that[/I] corrupt.
[QUOTE=Stopper;50325529]I don't think you, Sobotnik, or in fact most of the people here, especially those living in the US/UK/AUS/NZ/CAN, etc. really understand the problem, and you never will. It's not [I]your[/I] fault, it's just what it is.[/quote]
venezuelan posters have been explaining the reasoning why its happening. corruption is nothing new, the point is that they've been explicitly stating the reasons for why venezuela is a basketcase and it all boils down to the terrible policies of the [b]SOCIALIST[/b] party that is in power enacting policies which they believe will help to dismantle the capitalist economy (virtually all of them mention socialist ideology in some capacity as justification)
it's because of absolutely terrible and insane policies by the venezuelan government which have worked to slowly destroy the venezuelan economy
currency controls, inflexible monetary policy, incompetent officials, stupid nationalisations, etc have all helped to ruin the economy of a south american nation that should not be in this position. look at colombia next door - somehow its in a much better position despite having had a long history of corruption and internal conflict. venezuela is in a much worse position because the people in charge not only don't know how to run a country - but they maintain counterproductive policies which actually make it worse
corruption doesn't work as an explanation here because it's actually getting worse in venezuela and has been getting worse for 17 years. virtually every part of society has grown more and more corrupt. corruption isn't the exogenous factor - something else is
it's disgusting how there's so many people willing to absolve criminals and crooks by claiming that something in the ether is responsible rather than concrete policies which everybody saw. economists in the early 2000s saw where Venezuela was headed and nobody cared then because it was seen as "working socialism". now its 2016 and now that it's become too bad to ignore, people are claiming it wasn't "true" socialism in the first place. presumably it hasn't ruined enough nations yet for it to be abandoned
[QUOTE=Cructo;50320363]Honestly, even if people's idea of socialism is the greatest thing that ever could be, the reality is that every attempt at forcing socialism in a country has failed, and brought misery to its people.[/QUOTE]
I am not that well studied on this subject so if a Venezuelan would like to correct me feel free to do so, but looking up on the subject Venezuelan quality of life was improved a lot in the Hugo Chavez years but towards the end of his career and his death it started to rapidly go downhill from there. So in the short term, there was benefits to his attempts at socialism. I don't think the failure of Venezuela has much to do with socialism though. I'm not sure how much Socialism is in Venezuela anyway, social programs are definitely socialist in nature but aren't as important as workers being self-managed and getting rid of financial hierarchies.
One thing I dislike is Hugo Chavez being lambasted for being "Anti-American", when he has plenty of reason to have been that considering the atrocious behavior of US foreign policy in Latin America.
[QUOTE=Lysander32;50392421]I am not that well studied on this subject so if a Venezuelan would like to correct me feel free to do so, but looking up on the subject Venezuelan quality of life was improved a lot in the Hugo Chavez years but towards the end of his career and his death it started to rapidly go downhill from there. So in the short term, there was benefits to his attempts at socialism. I don't think the failure of Venezuela has much to do with socialism though. I'm not sure how much Socialism is in Venezuela anyway, social programs are definitely socialist in nature but aren't as important as workers being self-managed and getting rid of financial hierarchies.
One thing I dislike is Hugo Chavez being lambasted for being "Anti-American", when he has plenty of reason to have been that considering the atrocious behavior of US foreign policy in Latin America.[/QUOTE]
No it didn't.
Ultimately it comes down to a single thing, do you really believe that a government that routinely censors, incarcerates and otherwise disappears its detractors is publishing accurate numbers regarding it's quality of life indicators? You did a Google search, and that's the info you got. To really get to bottom of it though, you need to analyze, is it really possible for the Venezuelan economy to go downhill that quickly? Is it really possible that a 50% drop in oil prices during the course of a year resulted in 320% inflation rates and an alarmingly fast capital flight?
Chavez never did anything that improved people's lives, all of his economic measures were populist, that means they are supported by the population but not by economists, usually because they're based in unsound logic. What did Chavez do when the poor couldn't afford milk? Well he made the price of milk artificially low. What did he do when the milk producers told him they couldn't work at a loss? He took their companies. What happened once the government owned corporations couldn't become self sufficient? He subsidized them using oil exports earnings. What happened when demand increased as the artificially low prices drove every other private producer out of business, and it became irrational to increase the amount of deficit these subsidized companies created? He imported milk.
The reason why there isn't milk today in Venezuela, is because once oil prices dropped, the amount of cash available to support all these subsidized importations dropped dramatically, thus being unable to keep up with demand, ever. Of course, this doesn't apply to just milk, it applies to medicine, meat, chicken, tuna, eggs, flour, sugar, cooking oil, toilet paper, butter, beans, rice, pasta, onions, potatoes, tomatoes, bread, cheese, even cars and houses.
How could Chavez increase the people's quality of life when he doomed them to a lifetime of poverty, when he removed all of their economic and social freedoms for the sake of "equality"? Maduro merely followed the model Chavez laid out for him, it was Chavez who doomed Venezuela.
The US had no hand in this. Their non-involvement (Official policy of both the Bush and Obama administrations) is the reason why Chavez governed uncontested for 14 years. Before that, the US had no strategic interest in Venezuela to warrant any sort of intervention, we had a cordial relationship and the US was (and [I]still is[/I]) our main buyer. Believe it or not, even to this day, the US has a [I]trade deficit[/I] with Venezuela, despite 17 years of vehement "anti-imperialist" rhetoric from both Chavez and Maduro, and despite Venezuela having cut all diplomatic ties.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;50392794]Chavez never did anything that improved people's lives, all of his economic measures were populist, that means they are supported by the population but not by economists, usually because they're based in unsound logic. What did Chavez do when the poor couldn't afford milk? Well he made the price of milk artificially low. What did he do when the milk producers told him they couldn't work at a loss? He took their companies. What happened once the government owned corporations couldn't become self sufficient? He subsidized them using oil exports earnings. What happened when demand increased as the artificially low prices drove every other private producer out of business, and it became irrational to increase the amount of deficit these subsidized companies created? He imported milk.
The reason why there isn't milk today in Venezuela, is because once oil prices dropped, the amount of cash available to support all these subsidized importations dropped dramatically, thus being unable to keep up with demand, ever. Of course, this doesn't apply to just milk, it applies to medicine, meat, chicken, tuna, eggs, flour, sugar, cooking oil, toilet paper, butter, beans, rice, pasta, onions, potatoes, tomatoes, bread, cheese, even cars and houses. [/QUOTE]
This is quite possibly the most useful post in this thread. I can't speak as to whether or not this is factually correct, as I'm too lazy to properly research the economic and political situation of another country, but this is a clear example of a well-defined (and terrible) policy, and talking about actual policy is far more useful than bickering about whether a label like socialism is to blame or not. Call me optimistic, but I don't think most of the people in this thread disagree that this is bad policy. What the disagreement in this thread is really about, IMO, is whether this bad policy falls under the umbrella of socialism or not. Personally, I think it falls under communism.
[QUOTE=Lysander32;50392421]One thing I dislike is Hugo Chavez being lambasted for being "Anti-American", when he has plenty of reason to have been that considering the atrocious behavior of US foreign policy in Latin America.[/QUOTE]
There is a difference between not wanting American involvement and schizophrenic rambling about how the U.S. is literally the cause of every problem the country has and scapegoating the U.S. over every issue.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;50320464]
Venezuela is two seconds away from becoming an african banana republic with infinite civil war....this is going to be a nice fuck up[/QUOTE]
Plate tectonics has really been kicking up the pace lately.
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