(U.S.) Generals say women should have to register for draft - Polidicks

[QUOTE=wauterboi;49669413]The point I'm trying to make is that my standpoint shouldn't be special, yet there are people that are quick to say that you should die for another man's principles. America does not and can not ever represent me or my views, and to force another person to die for them is pretty insane.[/QUOTE] I see a massive hypocrisy in the United States. On one hand the right wing is the most nationalistic element in the country but on the other hand their entire economic policy is dedicated to "making sure we don't force those billionaires to not pay taxes or leave". Patriotism in a sense is only expected out of the poorest citizens. With the rich even being excluded from the draft and conscription, notably during the American Civil War and American intervention in Vietnam. [QUOTE=Menien Goneld;49669388]This is so important, the argument that women should be kept away from battle just in case we need baby factories has no basis in population realities. We don't need more children, in fact, we have too many mouths to feed as it is. .[/QUOTE] Feminists push this male expendability narrative because it's convenient. They don't want equal treatment, they want special treatment. Its pretty obvious that we're facing a population crisis and they probably know that but still push this tribal era nonsense. Conservatives push it because they genuinely believe it or just as some kind of justification for beliefs they hold for cultural reasons.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49669436]I see a massive hypocrisy in the United States. On one hand the right wing is the most nationalistic party but on the other hand its entire economic policy is dedicated to "making sure we don't force those billionaires to not pay taxes or leave". Patriotism in a sense is only expected out of the poorest citizens. With the rich basically even being excluded from the draft and conscription, notably during the American Civil War and American intervention in Vietnam.[/QUOTE] Right. My life isn't worth that. If I'm going to die for something, I better have a say in it. But, alas, I don't, and so I'd be very willing first to see if I can actually leave before being forced into an actual draft, or just straight up off my self because I'm not willing to die to protect people I couldn't care less about. It would be the most "selfish" thing ever but at least they aren't going to have me doing anything for them. Also, to die for this country is to believe that the people in charge have your best interests in mind. They don't. So why the double-standard? I mean, you can already see how they treat the veterans that come back. They find new ways every day to fail the veterans that fought to protect America. What makes people think that the trade-off is worth it? I wouldn't subject anyone to this, and I would see it as a personal but inevitable failure to see women subjected to the same thing. The way I look at it, if women are protected from the draft, that's half-success. If women want to fight for the draft, they can knock them selves out and sign up right now. Nothing's stopping them right now. The draft [I]forces[/I] people to fight, and I don't think that equal mandate necessarily entails justice as I know it.

I never got why people are so opposed to the draft. If there's ever a draft imo the only reason you should dodge it is if you intend on fighting on the opposite side. Even if you're a pacifist or opposed to the war/conflict there are [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector#United_States]positions for that[/url]. You could be a medic or something and actually save lives instead of fleeing.

[QUOTE=matt000024;49669511]I never got why people are so opposed to the draft. If there's ever a draft imo the only reason you should dodge it is if you intend on fighting on the opposite side. Even if you're a pacifist or opposed to the war/conflict there are [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector#United_States]positions for that[/url]. You could be a medic or something and actually save lives instead of fleeing.[/QUOTE] Not everyone wants to be sent off to some foreign warzone where they could get killed one way or the other, especially if it's for a political agenda or something stupid like Vietnam and especially when they do a bad enough job taking care of existing veterans with physical/mental health issues.

[QUOTE=matt000024;49669511]I never got why people are so opposed to the draft. If there's ever a draft imo the only reason you should dodge it is if you intend on fighting on the opposite side. Even if you're a pacifist or opposed to the war/conflict there are [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector#United_States]positions for that[/url]. You could be a medic or something and actually save lives instead of fleeing.[/QUOTE] i share a few feelings on the draft that would probably be unpopular myself but that's a bit naive i think in the US at least you have to go before a panel of officers, psychiatrists, even chaplains if you're a conscientious objector. it's a whole thing you have to go through, you can't just "be a medic or something" [editline]d[/editline] [QUOTE]Only three European Union countries – Germany, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom – recognize the right to conscientious objection for contract and professional military personnel,[96][/QUOTE] [QUOTE]In the United States, military personnel who come to a conviction of conscientious objection during their tour of duty must appear in front of a panel of experts, which consists of psychiatrists, military chaplains and officers. In Switzerland, the panel consists entirely of civilians, and military personnel have no authority whatsoever. In Germany, objections to military service are filed in writing, and an oral hearing is scheduled only if the written testimonials have been unconvincing; in practice, due to the heavy workload—about half of all draftees in a given year file as conscientious objectors—the competent authority reviews written applications only summarily, and it denies the alternative of a civilian service only in cases of grave shortcomings or inconsistencies in the written testimonials. Commonly, once an objector is summoned to a hearing, he has to explain what experiences drove him to recognize a conflict concerning his conscience.[/QUOTE] sergeant york, (yeah, that sgt. york) was denied being a conscientious objector a bunch of times before he got all those medels there wouldn't be a draft here in the first place if everyone could just say, "nah thx, i dont fight." in regards with women though.. if i get threatened with jail time/losing college benefits for not registering for "selective service" then there might as well be some equality with that

Sure, if we have to risk jail or not getting college benefits/federal benefits but they don't then by all means make them. If I'm forced to be sent off to die in a war fuelded by political and big business interest they should too.

[QUOTE=matt000024;49669511]I never got why people are so opposed to the draft. If there's ever a draft imo the only reason you should dodge it is if you intend on fighting on the opposite side. Even if you're a pacifist or opposed to the war/conflict there are [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector#United_States]positions for that[/url]. You could be a medic or something and actually save lives instead of fleeing.[/QUOTE] So you still have to enter a warzone.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49672655]So you still have to enter a warzone.[/QUOTE] There's also the possibility of alternative employment, provided it contributes substantially to defense, like a medical or wartime-manufacturing job.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;49672748]There's also the possibility of alternative employment, provided it contributes substantially to defense, like a medical or wartime-manufacturing job.[/QUOTE] There's also the possibility of them chucking you on the front line. It's not like you'd really get a choice if they needed more people with guns in their hands, at the end of the day.

[QUOTE=wauterboi;49669476]or just straight up off my self because I'm not willing to die to protect people I couldn't care less about. It would be the most "selfish" thing ever but at least they aren't going to have me doing anything for them.[/QUOTE] this is hands down one of the most pants on head retarded things I've ever heard you'd seriously rather kill yourself just out of spite than have to fight for people you "dont care about" and possibly come out of it alive

[QUOTE=wauterboi;49662729]I would not die for this country.[/QUOTE] This is the ideology, that puts the Republic at risk. The very same one that protects it.

[QUOTE=Rofl_copter;49669899]i share a few feelings on the draft that would probably be unpopular myself but that's a bit naive i think in the US at least you have to go before a panel of officers, psychiatrists, even chaplains if you're a conscientious objector. it's a whole thing you have to go through, you can't just "be a medic or something"[/QUOTE] Yes, because not everyone is truly opposed to killing and a lot of people would just say so in a time of a draft in an attempt to save their own ass. If you are actually that opposed to violence I don't see how they can actually force you to fight.

[QUOTE=wauterboi;49669476]Right. My life isn't worth that. If I'm going to die for something, I better have a say in it. But, alas, I don't, and so I'd be very willing first to see if I can actually leave before being forced into an actual draft, or just straight up off my self because I'm not willing to die to protect people I couldn't care less about. It would be the most "selfish" thing ever but at least they aren't going to have me doing anything for them.[/QUOTE] yeah, you're right. you are being very selfish instead of fighting for a country you take for granted or protesting the draft, you'd rather have someone else do the suffering for you no matter how horrible the draft may be it makes you give a shit about what we're involved in and who it affects. if you don't like it, then take action and look out for the best interests of your fellow human beings (people you grew up with, for godsake. are you kidding me?) instead of being an absolute coward if you're so adamantly opposed to being involved then run to canada! killing yourself would be so counterintuitive lol

[QUOTE=Alice_01;49675462]This is the ideology, that puts the Republic at risk. The very same one that protects it.[/QUOTE] So? I only get to live once, I'm not going to lay down my life for some organization unless I have a say in it.

[QUOTE=phygon;49676137]So? I only get to live once, I'm not going to lay down my life for some organization unless I have a say in it.[/QUOTE] You want to have a say in it? Exercise your right to vote. Get involved in politics. [I]Do something about it.[/I] Sitting around at home and complaining that no one represents your position or beliefs is the dumbest thing ever.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;49676603]You want to have a say in it? Exercise your right to vote. Get involved in politics. [I]Do something about it.[/I] Sitting around at home and complaining that no one represents your position or beliefs is the dumbest thing ever.[/QUOTE] I'm not just sitting around and complaining, I do vote, and I am politically active. Don't get condescending, you're posting in this thread just as I am. You can have a political discussion without it turning into patriotic dickwaving

This will definitely end well. [img]https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-can.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=phygon;49672859]There's also the possibility of them chucking you on the front line. It's not like you'd really get a choice if they needed more people with guns in their hands, at the end of the day.[/QUOTE] If you're so abhorrent about not getting a combat role, then go enlist if there's a draft. Seriously, it's one of the best options. If a draft kicks up and you're in the first group of potential draftees (males of a certain age, not in school, etc.) then go to a recruiting station and volunteer for military service. You'll be able to pick your job, unlike draftees who just get the job they're given. There's TONS of non-combat roles in the military, and plenty of roles that never leave the United States.

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[QUOTE=Da Bomb76;49662402]Would you not have the same concern if you had a son or brother who was drafted? Or is this about the differences in military capability between men and women?[/QUOTE] I'd be more okay with one of my brother's being drafted than my girlfriend being drafted

You know all this talk about drafts is also making me wonder what will happen if the United States ever had to start rationing things like it had to during World War II because of how much our society has gotten used to being able to indulge itself in everything.

[QUOTE=Bbarnes005;49682047]You know all this talk about drafts is also making me wonder what will happen if the United States ever had to start rationing things like it had to during World War II because of how much our society has gotten used to being able to indulge itself in everything.[/QUOTE] That could never happen. American food production is ridiculous.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49682397]That could never happen. American food production is ridiculous.[/QUOTE] I think what he meant was commodities like sugar or coffee, items that cannot be grown in the US currently. But either way, the rationing of such would be in interesting problem nonetheless.

[QUOTE=atva300ex;49682465]I think what he meant was commodities like sugar or coffee, items that cannot be grown in the US currently. But either way, the rationing of such would be in interesting problem nonetheless.[/QUOTE] Wat. Sugarcane is grown in the USA, Coffee in Hawaii as well.

Since I'm currently doing my (hopefully) 9 month military service I'm curious what people in this thread think about conscription? In Finland male citizens have to choose between 6-12 months of military service or over 2000hrs of community service. It's a criminal offense to avoid it. For women it's all completely voluntary.

[QUOTE=MaverickIB;49677141]If you're so abhorrent about not getting a combat role, then go enlist if there's a draft. Seriously, it's one of the best options. If a draft kicks up and you're in the first group of potential draftees (males of a certain age, not in school, etc.) then go to a recruiting station and volunteer for military service. You'll be able to pick your job, unlike draftees who just get the job they're given. There's TONS of non-combat roles in the military, and plenty of roles that never leave the United States.[/QUOTE] And then I'm forced to break up my life, my current line of work, and more to work in the military so I don't have the random chance of being essentially forced against my will to people. That's awful. Even if it's unlikely, the concept that it can happen and that it HAS happened is horrifying. [editline]6th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=proboardslol;49680076]I'd be more okay with one of my brother's being drafted than my girlfriend being drafted[/QUOTE] What about [I]you[/I] being drafted?

[QUOTE=Uberpro;49682610]It's a criminal offense to avoid it. For women it's all completely voluntary.[/QUOTE] Is this seen as a blatant double standard? Do feminist groups actually have this as an issue?

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49682571]Wat. Sugarcane is grown in the USA, Coffee in Hawaii as well.[/QUOTE]That's just talking about natural production too, there's always hydroponics which would enable anything to grow anywhere. [editline]6th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=proboardslol;49680076]I'd be more okay with one of my brother's being drafted than my girlfriend being drafted[/QUOTE]Why?

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49682860]Is this seen as a blatant double standard? Do feminist groups actually have this as an issue?[/QUOTE] I don't remember the equality issues of conscription being discussed in the media ever.

I don't think anyone should be forced to fight for someone else's ideals. Even someone who love their country might come to the conclusion that the war is unwinnable, or that the possibility of victory isn't worth the loss of lives required to achieve it.