[QUOTE=mib999;45422791]A ground attack is still going to cause a fuck ton of civilian casualties either way.[/QUOTE]
So what the hell do you do then? Peaceful solutions are not accepted by hamas. This is the default outcome.
If Israel were to somehow totally eliminate Hamas I'd be all for it. But dropping bombs and collapsing tunnels isn't going to do it, and likely isn't what they'd want anyway. How would they constantly portray themselves as the victim without someone antagonising them?
[quote]the Gazan [B]terror tunnels [/B][/quote]
that sounds like an amusement park ride
I personally think the best option is to do a full-ground invasion, demilitarize the Gaza strip and get an international body to operate an airport/sea-port + borders. Though it would lead to significantly more deaths in the short run, in the long run it would be more ideal. Though its a more controversial view, there will never be peace while Hamas is in power / Militant factions exist.
List of [URL="http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html"]names[/URL] of people who have been killed so far from both sides.
[QUOTE=Bucketboy;45427873]List of [URL="http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html"]names[/URL] of people who have been killed so far from both sides.[/QUOTE]
274 (and counting) Palestinians dead, and 2 Israeli dead.
Get your shit together people. This is crime against humanity.
[B]Edit:[/B] Why am I getting dumbed? For pointing out the truth?
Typical.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;45426693]If Israel were to somehow totally eliminate Hamas I'd be all for it. But dropping bombs and collapsing tunnels isn't going to do it, and likely isn't what they'd want anyway. How would they constantly portray themselves as the victim without someone antagonising them?[/QUOTE]
Because even if Hamas can't use the media to its advantage, Israel still gets a hell of a lot of missiles sent towards it daily-- not to mention Hamas's suicide bombers, gunmen, etc. who also take violent action within Israel.
I'm skeptical that Israel will actually be able to find and eliminate Hamas-- but there's not much we can do but hope.
[QUOTE=-Sleepy-*;45429884]274 (and counting) Palestinians dead, and 2 Israeli dead.
Get your shit together people. This is crime against humanity.
[B]Edit:[/B] Why am I getting dumbed? For pointing out the truth?
Typical.[/QUOTE]
You're right - Hamas are committing crimes against humanity for aiming their rockets at civilian populations...
[QUOTE=Jonzky;45430014]You're right - Hamas are committing crimes against humanity for aiming their rockets at civilian populations...[/QUOTE]
Both Hamas and Israel are in the wrong, I never implied that Hamas is right, and I WILL NEVER imply such a thing, I strongly disagree with their actions.
But the death tolls are insane! This needs to stop. ._.
[QUOTE=-Sleepy-*;45429884]274 (and counting) Palestinians dead, and 2 Israeli dead.
Get your shit together people. This is crime against humanity.
[B]Edit:[/B] Why am I getting dumbed? For pointing out the truth?
Typical.[/QUOTE]
We're sorry for being such a cheeky bastards.
Next time we'll deactivate our sirens and alarms, turn off the Iron Dome system and lock all the bomb shelters.
This way nobody will escape [del]Hamas rockets[/del] the justice.
[QUOTE=-Sleepy-*;45429884]274 (and counting) Palestinians dead, and 2 Israeli dead.
Get your shit together people. This is crime against humanity.
[B]Edit:[/B] Why am I getting dumbed? For pointing out the truth?
Typical.[/QUOTE]
Germanu lost more people in WWII than the US and UK combined(a [B]LOT[/B] more)... I guess the US and UK were just a bunch of terrorists committing crimes against humanity. (hint: casualty count is almost irrelevant when judging who's right in a situation)
[QUOTE=Hammer7;45430116]We're sorry for being such a cheeky bastards.
Next time we'll deactivate our sirens and alarms, turn off the Iron Dome system and lock all the bomb shelters.
This way nobody will escape [del]Hamas rockets[/del] the justice.[/QUOTE]
I am not implying that there needs to be more Israeli deaths. But to me it seems as if it's okay with you the death toll so far.
What I'm saying that all of this needs to stop. But what can I expect from someone like you? You're all comfy in your home, knowing the IDS protects you, while friends of mine are worried every second of their day.
Looking at some of these replies makes me wonder if there's a bit of humanity left.
[B]Edit:[/B]
[QUOTE]Germanu lost more people in WWII than the US did (a LOT more)... I guess the US were just a bunch of terrorists committing crimes against humanity. (hint: casualty count is almost irrelevant when judging who's right in a situation)[/QUOTE]
So because in the eyes of most people Israel is in the right to defend itself, the number of casualties on the Palestinian side doesn't matter? That's what I understand from your post at least.
[QUOTE=-Sleepy-*;45430142]I am not implying that there needs to be more Israeli deaths. But to me it seems as if it's okay with you the death toll so far.
What I'm saying that all of this needs to stop. But what can I expect from someone like you? You're all comfy in your home, knowing the IDS protects you, while friends of mine are worried every second of their day.
Looking at some of these replies makes me wonder if there's a bit of humanity left.
@Above me: Yes, that was the World War, but it's okay the death toll now compared to WWII right? It's perfectly okay.[/QUOTE]
You ARE saying that if Israel didn't have any protection and the death tolls were similar, then Israel would be more justified in their own death toll... even if all other actions were exactly the same.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45430179]You ARE saying that if Israel didn't have any protection and the death tolls were similar, then Israel would be more justified.[/QUOTE]
When the fuck did I imply such a thing? What I'm saying is that both sides need to stop once and for all.
But you're not the one who's losing families and relatives, are you? Why should you give a shit. You're right.
[B]Edit:[/B] Whatever, I am done arguing with people like YOU, because it's useless.
[QUOTE=-Sleepy-*;45430142]So because in the eyes of most people Israel is in the right to defend itself, the number of casualties on the Palestinian side doesn't matter? That's what I understand from your post at least.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that comparing death counts is an illogical and immoral way to judge who's in the right.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45430191]I'm saying that comparing death counts is an illogical and immoral way to judge who's in the right.[/QUOTE]
Did I say that someone's in the right? :suicide: No I did not.
[QUOTE=-Sleepy-*;45430188]But you're not the one who's losing families and relatives, are you? Why should you give a shit. You're right.
[B]Edit:[/B] Whatever, I am done arguing with people like YOU, because it's useless.[/QUOTE]
It must be hard to hear when riding on such a high horse.
[editline]18th July 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=-Sleepy-*;45430197]Did I say that someone's in the right? :suicide: No I did not.[/QUOTE]
Alright, then, what point were you making by saying that Israel has lost less people than palestine? What conclusions should we make based on that factual observation?
[QUOTE=sgman91;45430200]It must be hard to hear when riding on such a high horse.
[editline]18th July 2014[/editline]
Alright, then, what point were you making by saying that Israel has lost less people than palestine? What conclusions should we make based on that factual observation?[/QUOTE]
I don't think he was comparing the death counts, but rather pointing out that people have died unnecessarily on both sides due to the irresponsible actions of both Hamas and the IDF.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45430200]It must be hard to hear when riding on such a high horse.
[editline]18th July 2014[/editline]
Alright, then, what point were you making by saying that Israel has lost less people than Palestine? What conclusions should we make based on that factual observation?[/QUOTE]
The conclusions you should make is that the conditions that the Palestinians are living in right now are horrible, and they should stop, their lives are being destroyed and no one seems to give a shit about it.
Condolences to the families of those dead two Israelis, but for each Israeli dead, another 100-200 Palestinians die.
Does that seem fair to you? Judging from your posts, it does.
I apparently got my point across wrong, and I will stop right now. I do not want to get into heated arguments.
The moment you will experience a similar situation, is the moment when you will start judging differently.
[QUOTE=Ziks;45430246]I don't think he was comparing the death counts, but rather pointing out that people have died unnecessarily on both sides due to the irresponsible actions of both Hamas and the IDF.[/QUOTE]
If he confirms this as his purpose, then I'll stop going after it, but the fact that he listed the deaths separately makes me think otherwise. If he's simply lamenting total deaths, then there would be no reason to separate them.
I think it's funny that he rated your post agree, but then continued to post something in opposition to it.
[editline]18th July 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=-Sleepy-*;45430295]The conclusions you should make is that the conditions that the Palestinians are living in right now are horrible, and they should stop, their lives are being destroyed and no one seems to give a shit about it.
Condolences to the families of those dead two Israelis, [B]but for each Israeli dead, another 100-200 Palestinians die.
Does that seem fair to you? Judging from your posts, it does.[/B]
I apparently got my point across wrong, and I will stop right now. I do not want to get into heated arguments.
The moment you will experience a similar situation, is the moment when you will start judging differently.[/QUOTE]
... and my point is proven. He was most definitely comparing them and making moral judgements based on it.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45430296]If he confirms this as his purpose, then I'll stop going after it, but the fact that he listed the deaths separately makes me think otherwise. If he's simply lamenting total deaths, then there would be no reason to separate them.
[editline]18th July 2014[/editline]
... and my point is proven. He was most definitely comparing them and making moral judgements based on it.[/QUOTE]
Your point is proven? Haha.
I don't think you even took your time to read my post, rather you went through a fast read. Judging by the 30 seconds delay between your edit and my post.
I do not wish for more Israelis to die, as I do not wish for more Palestinians to die. But when you compare the death toll it's just laughable.
Lives are lives, no matter what.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45430296]... and my point is proven. He was most definitely comparing them and making moral judgements based on it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I think Sleepy lost credibility there. Any balance of deaths on either side would be unfair, the only fair situation would be zero casualties.
Can Israel just annex Gaza already? Seriously, it is clear that neither side intends on stopping the fighting without ridiculous requests, so it's better to just end it here and now and let Israel take full control over Gaza and the West Bank. It is better for the citizens of both countries, and better for stability in that region.
Herein lies the issue with comparing two militaries which have vastly different capabilities.
[QUOTE=Ziks;45430354]Yeah, I think Sleepy lost credibility there. Any balance of deaths on either side would be unfair, the only fair situation would be zero casualties.[/QUOTE]
I do not wish for the Israeli death count to increase, but I find it rather disturbing when I see such a high death count on one side compared to the other side where it can be counted on one hand.
I really feel sorry for both sides, but this needs to stop.
I apologize if I got my point across wrong, English is not my first language, y'know?
[QUOTE=-Sleepy-*;45430379]I do not wish for the Israeli death count to increase, but I find it rather disturbing when I see such a high death count on one side compared to the other side where it can be counted on one hand.
I really feel sorry for both sides, but this needs to stop.
I apologize if I got my point across wrong, English is not my first language, y'know?[/QUOTE]
The US lost about 1 civilian for every 92 civilians lost in Germany, not that far from this conflict. ([URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties[/URL])
You simply CAN'T make any judgement based on comparing death counts. One could easily say that to make it "fair" Israel should launch a missile at a civilian center for every missile launched by Hamas at a civilian center (over 1,200 in this conflict).*
*NOTE: I'm not arguing for this, but simply showing that talking about "fairness" in war is at least immoral, and at best impossible. "Fairness" isn't, and shouldn't be, the goal for any war.
[QUOTE=-Sleepy-*;45430379]I do not wish for the Israeli death count to increase, but I find it rather disturbing when I see such a high death count on one side compared to the other side where it can be counted on one hand.
I really feel sorry for both sides, but this needs to stop.
I apologize if I got my point across wrong, English is not my first language, y'know?[/QUOTE]
Sleepy, this is wartime. Not a fucking videogame.
There's no such thing as "teamstack" and "unfair" in real life.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;45430356]Herein lies the issue with comparing two militaries which have vastly different capabilities.[/QUOTE]
Israel may do that in the future, but right now would be very bad.
Israel can't annex Gaza and the West Bank without giving the people living there citizenship. This will make Arab citizens in Israel an overwhelming majority and will immediately vote out any kind of Jewish government, which Israel doesn't want.
They've already stopped colonizing Gaza for the most part. They're focused almost entirely on the West Bank. I'm sure if Israel could, they would throw Gaza away to another country to deal with, but I seriously doubt Egypt would want it now.
[QUOTE=-Sleepy-*;45430142]So because in the eyes of most people Israel is in the right to defend itself, the number of casualties on the Palestinian side doesn't matter? That's what I understand from your post at least.[/QUOTE]
It's hard to feel pity for the deaths of people who willingly allow terrorists to use their homes and businesses as a base of operations to store munitions and launch attacks against civilian populations.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45431366]Israel may do that in the future, but right now would be very bad.
Israel can't annex Gaza and the West Bank without giving the people living there citizenship. This will make Arab citizens in Israel an overwhelming majority and will immediately vote out any kind of Jewish government, which Israel doesn't want.
They've already stopped colonizing Gaza for the most part. They're focused almost entirely on the West Bank. I'm sure if Israel could, they would throw Gaza away to another country to deal with, but I seriously doubt Egypt would want it now.[/QUOTE]
IIRC Israel tried to to pass Gaza off to the Egyptians as part of the 1979 peace accords. They weren't interested.
I think the settlements were originally supposed to be a form of crawling annexation. But the Palestinians of the territories aren't particularly interested in becoming Israeli citizens, which is why they object to the whole thing. Even the Palestinians of East Jerusalem who [B]are[/B] Israeli citizens prefer to be part of a Palestinian state.
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