[QUOTE=sgman91;45430128]Germanu lost more people in WWII than the US and UK combined(a [B]LOT[/B] more)... I guess the US and UK were just a bunch of terrorists committing crimes against humanity. (hint: casualty count is almost irrelevant when judging who's right in a situation)[/QUOTE]
Germany had a strong military that could defend itself from attacks. While Hamas has basically nothing to defend itself from Israeli rockets and bombs.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45430128]Germanu lost more people in WWII than the US and UK combined(a [B]LOT[/B] more)... I guess the US and UK were just a bunch of terrorists committing crimes against humanity. (hint: casualty count is almost irrelevant when judging who's right in a situation)[/QUOTE]
Actually Germany killed a lot more Americans/Brits than Americans/Brits killed Germans. It was probably about a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio skewed in Germany's favor.
The [I]eastern front[/I] is what accounted for the vast majority of German deaths, and some of what the soviet union did to Germany could be described as terrorism (decimation of eastern german cities, civilian killings, war rape, etc) though on the same hand Germany did the same to the soviet union, so it was a series of a reprisals, whatever you make of that morally.
At any rate your comparison is poor for these reasons. WW2 was a mutually brutal affair, whereas barely any Israelis have died and 300 Palestinians have died. If The Palestinians had actually killed and maimed a lot of Israelis I might be inclined to agree with you, but with 1 civilian and 1 soldier dead these 300 reprisals are not even slightly proportionate.
Ignore the example then, the point stands without it.
Well no, it doesn't really because you really haven't defined what that point is now. You just made a statement ("causalities don't matter when judging right/wrong") and you supported it with a faulty comparison that was proven wrong.
For posterity: My stance here would be that Israel is the aggressor state in this conflict, it is amoral and demonstrably bad to kill 294 people in retaliation for an attack that killed almost nobody. Israel is not behaving in a manner befitting of being a recognized and valid nation and should not be supporting morally, politically or financially until they start behaving in an ethical and peaceful manner.
You've yet to establish why Israel is "right" given that it's already been established that Israel has killed 150x more people in this conflict than Hamas has, Israel is a recognized state, whereas Hamas is a splinter terrorist organization not representative of the many innocent Palestinians killed in this air raid campaign. What has given Israel the "right" precedent to kill such an enormously disproportionate number of innocent people in retaliation for a rocket attack that was almost completely ineffective by all quantifiable standards?
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45432172]Then they should probably stop lobbing rockets into Israel..[/QUOTE]
Even if they stop, even if Hamas drops it's weapons. Israel will assassinate them anyway because "They are terrorists so they must die".
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;45432143]Well no, it doesn't really because you really haven't defined what that point is now. You just made a statement ("causalities don't matter when judging right/wrong") and you supported it with a faulty comparison that was proven wrong.
For posterity: My stance here would be that Israel is the aggressor state in this conflict, it is amoral and demonstrably bad to kill 294 people in retaliation for an attack that killed almost nobody. Israel is not behaving in a manner befitting of being a recognized and valid nation and should not be supporting morally, politically or financially until they start behaving in an ethical and peaceful manner.[/QUOTE]
"You simply CAN'T make any judgement based on comparing death counts. One could easily say that to make it "fair" Israel should launch a missile at a civilian center for every missile launched by Hamas at a civilian center (over 1,200 in this conflict).*
*NOTE: I'm not arguing for this, but simply showing that talking about "fairness" in war is at least immoral, and at best impossible. "Fairness" isn't, and shouldn't be, the goal for any war."
[QUOTE]You've yet to establish why Israel is "right" given that it's already been established that Israel has killed 150x more people in this conflict than Hamas has, Israel is a recognized state, whereas Hamas is a splinter terrorist organization not representative of the many innocent Palestinians killed in this air raid campaign. What has given Israel the "right" precedent to kill such an enormously disproportionate number of innocent people in retaliation for a rocket attack that was almost completely ineffective by all quantifiable standards?[/QUOTE]
I haven't even attempted to argue that Israel is in the right or that the palestinians are in the wrong, just that comparing casualties is a useless measure when deciding who's in the right or in the wrong.
[QUOTE=Bucketboy;45432203]Even if they stop, even if Hamas drops it's weapons. Israel will assassinate them anyway because "They are terrorists so they must die".[/QUOTE]
Except Israel only attacks when provoked? Hamas drops its weapons, Israel drops its attacks.
[editline]18th July 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;45431432]IIRC Israel tried to to pass Gaza off to the Egyptians as part of the 1979 peace accords. They weren't interested.
I think the settlements were originally supposed to be a form of crawling annexation. But the Palestinians of the territories aren't particularly interested in becoming Israeli citizens, which is why they object to the whole thing. Even the Palestinians of East Jerusalem who [B]are[/B] Israeli citizens prefer to be part of a Palestinian state.[/QUOTE]
I was under the impression a lot of Arab citizens are undecided or evenly split on which side to support
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45432515]Except Israel only attacks when provoked? Hamas drops its weapons, Israel drops its attacks.
[/QUOTE]
This isn't necessarily true, the rocket barrages from Gaza occurred after Netanyahu began his attempts to sabotage the recent unity government and started going after Hamas in the West Bank, despite there still be no evidence that Hamas was actually responsible for the death of the 3 teens. Netanyahu even already knew the 3 teens were dead, as we now know that call for help from the teens was interrupted by gun-shots. Netanyahu didn't care, the govt. imposed a gag-order and he used the events as an opportunity to fan hate and incitement (which happened to get that Palestinian boy in E. Jerusalem murdered), while using what occurred as pre-text to launch military incursions in the WB against Hamas. Hamas responded by launching rocket barrages and here we are.
Basically, Netanyahu was acting as the slimy war-mongering politician he is.
In the AMA the guy explained that the reason Hamas rejected the cease fire is that it is the same terms as in 2008 and 2012, that being that isreal would open up Gaza once the situation calmed down, however, because Israel sees Hamas as terrorists, that clause is always going to be null in their eyes. This means Hamas won't accept a cease fire because Israel will never fulfil that part of the bargin.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45432853]Probably because hamas IS a terrorist group..[/QUOTE]
You don't make peace with your friends, groups like Hamas will exist so long as Israel has a policy to subject millions of people to occupation.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45432911]And Israel will continue to have the policy of "containment" until the Palestinian people act like a state and start arresting and prosecuting terrorist groups.[/QUOTE]
The Palestinians' "state" is compromised of a an overcrowded besieged coastal enclave and a bunch of bantustans. They are given no capacity to act as a state and its naive to expect that groups like Hamas will not exist in such an environment.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45432972]That's no excuse for the government flat out ignoring their activities. If they're so incapable of acting then of course the Israelis are going to act. If Palestine policed itself effectively israel wouldn't be invading the gaza strip right now, they'd be sitting in israel, chilling.
There's no excuse to allow groups like hamas to exist, you either are a government, and enforce rule of law, or you aren't, and you don't have a leg to stand on when you're desiring statehood. Pick one.[/QUOTE]
1) Israel doesn't "sit" in Israel, it subjects millions of people to occupation.
2) The hostilities didn't start from Hamas' actions, Israel provoked them by launching operations against them in the West Bank under false pretext. Israel's policies against the Palestinians are already never-ending hostilities, anyways.
Didn't it start because 3 Israeli teens were murdered? Resulting in revenge murder of a Palestinian kid? Resulting in Hamas rockets? Resulting in Israeli bombardments?
It's a chain-overreaction.
Hamas are a militant organisation. Terrorists is a perspective, as is freedom fighters.
And do you seriously expect Palestine to be able to do much when Israel is continuously crippling it with bombs and blockades?
The hate on Israel on this forum, especially from Europeans is really unsettling. Responding when you're attacked is now considered being the aggressor? Okay.
Israel doesn't attempt to take civilian lives, but Hamas sure as shit does. Do you see Hamas dropping leaflets and making phone calls to warn civilians before they attack a civilian center with rockets? Fuck no.
Now I know Hamas doesn't have the ability to do the above things, but then they shouldn't target mainly civilian centers like they have. They aim for civilian deaths and chaos, plain and simple.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45432515]Except Israel only attacks when provoked? Hamas drops its weapons, Israel drops its attacks.[/quote]
Israel uses its weapons to defend its citizens. Hamas uses its citizens to defend its weapons.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45433710]Israel uses its weapons to defend its citizens. Hamas uses its citizens to defend its weapons.[/QUOTE]
That's a nice soundbite, but in reality, Israel doesn't defend itself. It just reacts against people who are being subjected to military occupation and all kinds of shitty treatment. (Yes, the Gaza Strip is occupied)
[QUOTE=Lamar;45433751](Yes, the Gaza Strip is occupied)[/QUOTE]
i find this hard to believe, unless you consider the present military campaign as consisting an occupation
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;45433852]i find this hard to believe, unless you consider the present military campaign as consisting an occupation[/QUOTE]
You don't need boots on the ground to subject people to military occupation.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations[/url]
[QUOTE=Lamar;45433919]You don't need boots on the ground to subject people to military occupation.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations[/url][/QUOTE]
the military administration ended in 1994 and then the israelis pulled out both the military and evicted settlers in 2005
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;45433938]the military administration ended in 1994 and then the israelis pulled out both the military and evicted settlers in 2005[/QUOTE]
Why did you just ignore what I said? You don't need boots on the ground to subject people to military occupation. I've already said that and provided you with a link supporting my argument that Gaza is under military occupation. I figure you'll ignore this as well, but here is a link to the CIA World Factbook's section on Israel. Scroll all the way down to transnational issues, it'll say that the Gaza strip is Israeli occupied.
[url]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/print/country/countrypdf_is.pdf[/url]
[quote]West Bank and Gaza Strip are Israeli-occupied with current status subject to the
Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement [/quote]
[QUOTE=Lamar;45434230]Why did you just ignore what I said? You don't need boots on the ground to subject people to military occupation. I've already said that and provided you with a link supporting my argument that Gaza is under military occupation. I figure you'll ignore this as well, but here is a link to the CIA World Factbook's section on Israel. Scroll all the way down to transnational issues, it'll say that the Gaza strip is Israeli occupied.
[url]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/print/country/countrypdf_is.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]
I believe they're talking about governance, not military occupation. They specifically say, in your own source, that Israel has pulled out its military from Gaza.
Israel may have international jurisdiction over it, but it's not "military occupied' like you keep repetitively harping about.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45434279]I believe they're talking about governance, not military occupation. They specifically say, in your own source, that Israel has pulled out its military from Gaza.
Israel may have international jurisdiction over it, but it's not "military occupied' like you keep repetitively harping about.[/QUOTE]
If China blocked our country by the sea, controlled our airspace, flew drones above our heads, and imposed kill-zones that extended into our territory, would you not tell me we're under military occupation?
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45434332]Considering Palestinians government is so useless it might as well not exist, of course Israel exercises governance, lest they be completely law-less. Palestine can't even exercise simple rule of law, how else is israel going to stop rocket attacks and various other attacks against itself? Who are they going to talk to? The Palestinian government can't do a damned thing, so the next best thing is to talk to hamas. Hamas isn't going to play ball so you might as well just stop asking and start acting, which they have.
[editline]18th July 2014[/editline]
If the US were a tiny strip of land that was surrounded on all sides by china, then got pissy and started lobbing rockets into china, i'd fully expect them to control the sea, airspace, and to take further steps.[/QUOTE]
I'd expect if China was subjecting millions of Americans under military occupation we'd be lobbing rockets at them and fighting them anyway we can.
[QUOTE=Lamar;45434324]If China blocked our country by the sea, controlled our airspace, flew drones above our heads, and imposed kill-zones that extended into our territory, would you not tell me we're under military occupation?[/QUOTE]
Yes because that's a dumb comparison.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45434400]No, we're not ignoring your question. We've answered your question, and you're so blinded by the "military occupation" that you don't realize how much Palestine has brought this upon themselves, and will continue to do so until they form a competent government and start working with Israel in order to take meaningful steps towards peace. Until then, yes, they will be "occupied" as they have proven time and time again that they are too incompetent to manage themselves.
Palestine (in its modern form) has been in existence since 1993, and THEY STILL HAVE YET TO FORM A COMPETENT GOVERNMENT, they attempted to use terrorism to gain ground with Israel, and it backfired HORRIBLY, resulting in the current situation. Yes, Israel will continue to do its thing, because Palestine can't pull its shit together for long enough to give Israel a reason to NOT "occupy" them.[/QUOTE]
how can they form a competent government that the palestine people can take seriously if israel doesn't even negotiate with them seriously?
israel and us constantly denies palestine any diplomatic power or solution such as UN statehood because 'they have terrorists in their government!' then disregards their government because of it, and wonder why palestine resorts to violence?
if you want a competent government that's capable of negotiating without resorting to violence, you first show that they're capable of actually achieving change rather than fucking them over at every turn and make them the laughing stock of gaza
p.s: awaiting a disagree rating from monkah
If anyone here thinks Palestine has enough of a government to even be deserving of the word 'government', then they obviously don't very well understand the situation.
The whole reason that Israel is cleaning up this mess is because Palestine clearly lacks the proper law enforcement to deal with it themselves. If Palestine could govern itself like any decent fucking country should, then maybe Israel wouldn't have to be babysitting it. [B]Israel isn't letting Palestine have certain freedoms that may be dangerous, similarly to how a babysitter shouldn't leave a fully loaded glock next to a newborn child.[/B] This is fully reasonable at this point, seeing that Palestine is entirely incapable of keeping their country under control.
Getting rid of Hamas is helping the Palestinians more than it's helping Israel. Anyone who says otherwise-- regardless of opinion-- is simply just trying to piss on Israel for other reasons.
ps: have a 'dumb' instead, Lolwutdude.
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;45434472]how can they form a competent government that the palestine people can take seriously if israel doesn't even negotiate with them seriously?
israel and us constantly denies palestine any diplomatic power or solution such as UN statehood because 'they have terrorists in their government!' then disregards their government because of it, and wonder why palestine resorts to violence?
if you want a competent government that's capable of negotiating without resorting to violence, you first show that they're capable of actually achieving change rather than fucking them over at every turn and make them the laughing stock of gaza
p.s: awaiting a disagree rating from monkah[/QUOTE]
It's not even the terrorism that Hamas supports. Fatah is notorious for corruption and the governments that they do try to form are incompetent due to this.
Isn't the Palestine sorta in conflict with itself all the time?
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;45434564]Isn't the Palestine sorta in conflict with itself all the time?[/QUOTE]
Another short primer:
Currently the occupied territories are ruled by two governments:
The West Bank is ruled by the Palestinian Authority, which is governed by the Fatah party (formerly the PLO). This is a secular albeit somewhat corrupt governent that has been in on-and-off negotiations with Israel for the foundation of a Palestinian state for some time.
These negotiations mostly fail on some core issues we haven't been able to bridge so far like the right of return and the ownership of Jerusalem.
Meanwhile, the Gaza strip is ruled by Hamas ever since they have violently took over the strip and executed all the Fatah members when Israel pulled out of it militarily and removed all the settlements there.
The Hamas government is Islamist, supported by Iran and Syria and primarily by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, who are now out of the question. Hamas refuses to negotiate with Israel for a permanent end to hostilities and will only agree to a "hudna", to temporary cease fire.
They also want to take over the West Bank, which is why some of what Israeli military presence in the West Bank does is root out Hamas operatives and keep the Fatah government safe.
It should be noted that neither Palestinian government is democratically elected, as neither had a real election in the last decade, I think. Supposedly Hamas would win if there were elections, which is why the Palestinian Authority is avoiding it until there's a "reunion" with Hamas.
Currently, due to the Israeli and Egyptian blockade on Gaza militarily and economiclly along with the lost of support for the Egyptian side now that the government there is hostile to the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas hasn't been able to pay salaries, which is causing unrest and loss of support in Gaza.
Which is why the Hamas was finally agreeing to a reunion with the Palestinian Authority.
Unfortunately the PA was willing to form a union government but not to pay Hamas salaries, which may be one reason Hamas felt they had to escalate things with Israel as a way to re-gain public support and perhaps force a truce with terms that will allow them more breathing room.
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