Why politicians lie and why we want to believe them - Polidicks

[QUOTE=yawmwen;36186346]I don't think it really matters that much. "Foreign Agents" can still infiltrate our Congress and Judicial Branch. Also, to become president requires an obscene amount of time in politics to even get a shot at getting a shot at becoming a contender for a party. There are better ways for a country to infiltrate and collect intelligence in the US, namely by infiltrating our intelligence and law enforcement agencies. Trying to get the presidency seems like a waste of time and resources. [editline]3rd June 2012[/editline] Nope. McCain was born on land owned by the US, a military hospital on a military base in Panama. Therefore he is considered born in the US.[/QUOTE] Either way, I think it's fair that the President of our country is one of us, don't you?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;36186346]I don't think it really matters that much. "Foreign Agents" can still infiltrate our Congress and Judicial Branch. Also, to become president requires an obscene amount of time in politics to even get a shot at getting a shot at becoming a contender for a party. There are better ways for a country to infiltrate and collect intelligence in the US, namely by infiltrating our intelligence and law enforcement agencies. Trying to get the presidency seems like a waste of time and resources. [/QUOTE] Can't really risk the possibility, it's only hard at the moment because the country is full of nationalists, if it became more liberal they'd probably have a chance.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;36186220]That's completely ignoring the fact that many(if not most) "foreign agents" are US born.[/QUOTE] US-born "foreign agents" are probably less likely to give a fuck what some foreign agency wants them to do, since they've got no real attachment to it. Think about it. You're born in the US, go to a US school, and have a bunch of US friends. You get a letter from some douchebags telling you that they had you born here so that you could spy for them. Your options are: 1. Do it. 2. Tell them to fuck off. I think most people would opt for option #2, since they can't really make you do shit because you're a US-born citizen and you've never even seen the country they want you to risk everything for. Not to say that I think the policy is reasonable in general. I'm kind of conflicted about it. I'd be totally OK having a Canadian president or something. Milk in bags and whatnot.

[QUOTE=DoctorSalt;36186404]Either way, I think it's fair that the President of our country is one of us, don't you?[/QUOTE] I disagree with the definition of "one of us". I think anyone who believes themselves an American should be considered an American. The beauty of the United States is we are supposed to be incredibly open to immigration and integrating different cultures into our society. We can walk down the street and order hotdogs from the same restaurant that serves french bread. We can get pizza at a chinese buffet. We can hear the soft tunes of someone playing classical music from Germany and a few steps later we hear folk music originating in England. That's why our motto is "E Pluribus Unum", One from Many. Anyone should be allowed the same privilege of running for any elected office whether born in the US or not. [QUOTE=carcarcargo;36186412]Can't really risk the possibility, it's only hard at the moment because the country is full of nationalists, if it became more liberal they'd probably have a chance.[/QUOTE] Not really, and it doesn't mitigate any risk since, like I said, many agents are natural born citizens.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;36185355]Political apathy is dangerously retarded. I hate people who "dont care about politics" even though our world is entirely dependent on them and if we all stopped caring we'd we neck deep in shit.[/QUOTE] In my country, the president whines about not having money to pay his bills when he receives 13 grand a month and has no expenses other than whatever shit he may want to buy. Every single minister is grossly overpaid and demands cuts on everything and price raises on everything as well. And every single opposing party is equally bad, in one way or another, with the public-private company relationships reaching borderline insanity with enormous backdoor deals (recently, a 700 million euro hole was found in the state's accounts and it would never have been made public if a spy that was stalking about in the government's back deals hadn't been arrested). It's pathetic and supporting any party here in portugal is like choosing between getting burned to death and drowning

[QUOTE=ROBO_DONUT;36186463]US-born "foreign agents" are probably less likely to give a fuck what some foreign agency wants them to do, since they've got no real attachment to it. Think about it. You're born in the US, go to a US school, and have a bunch of US friends. You get a letter from some douchebags telling you that they had you born here so that you could spy for them. Your options are: 1. Do it. 2. Tell them to fuck off. I think most people would opt for option #2, since they can't really make you do shit because you're a US-born citizen and you've never even seen the country they want you to risk everything for. Not to say that I think the policy is reasonable in general. I'm kind of conflicted about it. I'd be totally OK having a Canadian president or something. Milk in bags and whatnot.[/QUOTE] Again, that's ignoring the fact that so many spies are born in the US. It isn't like a spy agency just contacts someone telling them to spy. People do it because they sympathize with a certain ideology, and want to help the country by advancing the goals of the ideology.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;36186516]Again, that's ignoring the fact that so many spies are born in the US. It isn't like a spy agency just contacts someone telling them to spy. People do it because they sympathize with a certain ideology, and want to help the country by advancing the goals of the ideology.[/QUOTE] True.

[QUOTE=MBB;36186398]Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that the "natural-born citizen" requirement doesn't necessitate being born in the United States, but rather to be born with citizenship. This could involve being born in Europe to American parents that were on vacation.[/QUOTE] Special considerations are taken during vacations and shit, since both parents consider themselves residents and it was only through coincidence the child was born outside the US. If the parents were legal residents of France, but still citizens of the US, I doubt the same considerations would be taken.

[QUOTE=MBB;36186398]Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that the "natural-born citizen" requirement doesn't necessitate being born in the United States, but rather to be born with citizenship. This could involve being born in Europe to American parents that were on vacation.[/QUOTE] Correct. "Natural-born citizen Who is a natural-born citizen? Who, in other words, is a citizen at birth, such that that person can be a President someday? The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." But even this does not get specific enough. As usual, the Constitution provides the framework for the law, but it is the law that fills in the gaps. The Constitution authorizes the Congress to do create clarifying legislation in Section 5 of the 14th Amendment; the Constitution, in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4, also allows the Congress to create law regarding naturalization, which includes citizenship. Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in the gaps left by the Constitution. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:" Anyone born inside the United States * Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S. Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21 Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time) A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S. * There is an exception in the law — the person must be "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States. This would exempt the child of a diplomat, for example, from this provision. Anyone falling into these categories is considered natural-born, and is eligible to run for President or Vice President. These provisions allow the children of military families to be considered natural-born, for example." [url]http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html[/url]

"HE WAS BORN SOMEWHERE, EXPOSE HIM!"

[QUOTE=yawmwen;36185988]Not really. I doubt you've taken part in local politics judging by that attitude.[/QUOTE] 1: Last time local elections were up I was too young to vote by about six months. 2: Even then I noticed quite a bit of lying and shitslinging. Maybe not as much as the races for federal seats, but the TN governor and Nashville mayor races had plenty of both. [QUOTE=Marbalo;36186172]This kind of defeatist attitude isnt helping anyone[/quote] And throwing my vote at an independent that doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting anywhere won't help either...assuming there even is an independent choice. There doesn't seem to be one this year, at least not for the white house. [quote]Its just a cop out for lazy people because change actually requires effort.[/QUOTE] Changing the system requires more or less another revolution. The system isn't giving us a choice that will fix anything, we're told to choose between a republican liar and a democratic liar. Either way we're fucked...and even if we were given a choice there's no guarantee our votes will even count, the electoral college can override the popular vote if it decides to. I don't trust it enough to assume it won't use that power.