Snowden had already decided to leak classified information before he had access to any of it - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Sableye;41203877]corrected, if stuxnet showed anything, its that a phone can cause a lot of damage just by walking into a room [editline]26th June 2013[/editline] it was able to jump from machine to machine using any form of communications, and phones these days have gazillions of different ways to communicate with machines, through blutooth, wifi, NFC, and a few other ways too[/QUOTE] It was a metaphor

[QUOTE=demoguy08;41203771]It's funny how we always end up focusing more on the guy who leaked the information than the information itself.[/QUOTE] The US Gov don't even need to cover it up. The NSA is spying on everybody but the citizens are too lazy and stupid to do something about it. Then the ones who cares don't do shit but complain on internet forums and talk about the leaker personal life instead of how to go against it. WE deserve this, if we really cared we would something about it.

[QUOTE=MoarFunz;41203964]It was a metaphor[/QUOTE] ya and information is destructive, and doesn't need a gun to be used

[QUOTE=catbarf;41203204]If he had come across just the NSA information in the course of his work, and then tried to carry it up the chain but got blocked by his superiors, and turned to the media as a last resort and faced the US government in public, I would call him a hero. But as more and more facts come out, it's starting to paint a very different picture of his motivations and his actions. He took a job specifically so that he could leak classified data. He stole, and has now leaked, classified data completely unrelated to the issues he was supposedly whistleblowing. What do cyberattacks against China have to do with domestic surveillance? And now he's been working with our biggest intelligence enemies- China, Russia, and Cuba. But the worst part of all this is that he planned it so far in advance. He didn't even try to follow whistleblowing procedure- he had decided before he even took the job that he was going to steal classified information and flee to China of all places. He literally plotted to commit espionage. He wasn't forced into this by the US government's reaction, he set it up well in advance and knew [I]exactly[/I] what he was doing. Think of it this way: If you were going to defect from the United States to another country, would you be telling the world that you're a traitor? Or would you find some juicy detail in all the info available, release and focus on that in particular, and paint yourself as someone standing up for the rights of the people against the Big Bad Government? If he gives the info he brought with him to Russia it'll seal it.[/QUOTE] Who in their right mind would dare confront their superiors about something they already knew and were allowing to happen? He would've been reassigned to a different position or fired. He stole and leaked classified data that exposed the criminal acts of the NSA and our government. They were monitoring and storing mass amounts of data about people all over the world, and infiltrating networks that they should never tamper with. All in the name of security. He already knew the bad shit that the government was up to when he had his post in Geneva. He took that other job to find out more. He's in our intelligence enemy's countries because they're the only ones that have the balls to challenge the U.S. Any other countries would raise their asses in the air and let them have Snowden without a second thought. You're looking at this the wrong way but whatever, you will never change your mind because this is the internet where people will defend their opinions even if they're wrong. [QUOTE=SPESSMEHREN;41203290]As if that isn't enough, he truly believes he is above the law just because he's a "whistleblower" on programs that were perfectly legal.[/QUOTE] Anything can be legal if you're the ones deciding what is and what isn't. [QUOTE=scout1;41203867]You should know 99.99% of what this nation has done. All of it has been declassified.[/QUOTE] I don't believe that, lots of it sure, but not all of it.

[QUOTE=galenmarek;41203539]Aren't you Canadian? How would you know what the everyday person generally thinks of him aside from the internet and an occasional trip across the border? This is by no means a minority opinion. It's not even a situation where America is the only country that does this. I wouldn't even be surprised if your own country had a similar program seeing how Canada has behind the helm on some downright evil stuff as well. A bad person doing a good deed does not suddenly make a person good. In short I support the act but have disagreements with the man.[/QUOTE] Two points - One, I never pretended that Canada didn't have a similar organization to Prism. I'm almost certain it does, in fact - I can see no other way that the government would have known a terror attack was about to happen early enough to arrest the perpetrators in Toronto. Second, I don't see what makes Snowden such a bad guy. As far as I've read, he's stated that he exposed the government because he felt the country needed to know about Prism. And then he left and flew around to a number of other countries, because he knew they'd hunt him. So where the hell does Canada come into this? No need to get defensive.

[QUOTE=JgcxCub;41203739]Uhm, excuse me? Where the fuck has all this anti-Snowden sentiment come from? I could understand if he'd gone into the task specifically to be some agent provocateur, deliberately trying to stir up shit by falsifying. However, so far, I have no reason to believe anything he's said is false. Why does it matter that he already knew there was bad stuff there? Does he have to somehow be trusting first and have that naivety broken to be "legit"? I don't get you guys at all.[/QUOTE] It's not about whether what he's given so far is false, it's about what else he's going to give and why and who he's going to be working with. Someone who takes a job specifically to steal sensitive information and then flee the country with it, making no attempts whatsoever at legal whistleblowing, doesn't sound like a whistleblower, it sounds like a defector. He's been disclosing information that has nothing to do with whistleblowing on the NSA and he's been seeking assistance in China, Russia, and Cuba. Doesn't that seem a little suspicious? [QUOTE=Iago;41203841]Yeaa he decided to lose his $100,000k+ job and be hunted from the most powerful country in the world because of some selfish want.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames"]No American has ever done that before, right?[/URL]

[QUOTE=catbarf;41204165]It's not about whether what he's given so far is false, it's about what else he's going to give and why and who he's going to be working with. Someone who takes a job specifically to steal sensitive information and then flee the country with it doesn't sound like a whistleblower, it sounds like a defector. He's been disclosing information that has nothing to do with whistleblowing on the NSA and he's seeking refuge in Russia. Doesn't that seem a little suspicious?[/QUOTE] If you just leaked all that information (just talking about PRISM), would you stay in the U.S? Have fun with the Bradley Manning treatment. I would leave the U.S and go to a country that would stand up to pressure from it.

[QUOTE=scout1;41203261]I don't necessarily think he should lose the hero title. I think people are glorifying him for bad reasons, though. He had a goal. He went for it. He just did it in a cowardly, damaging way. But he did it.[/QUOTE] Cowardly? [editline]26th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=galenmarek;41203539]Aren't you Canadian? How would you know what the everyday person generally thinks of him aside from the internet and an occasional trip across the border? This is by no means a minority opinion. It's not even a situation where America is the only country that does this. I wouldn't even be surprised if your own country had a similar program seeing how Canada has behind the helm on some downright evil stuff as well. A bad person doing a good deed does not suddenly make a person good. In short I support the act but have disagreements with the man.[/QUOTE] Canada is aprox 0m away from the USA.

[QUOTE=Amez;41204198]If you just leaked all that information (just talking about PRISM), would you stay in the U.S? Have fun with the Bradley Manning treatment. I would leave the U.S and go to a country that would stand up to pressure from it.[/QUOTE] Bradley Manning wasn't whistleblowing, he just freely gave out military information to the public. What Snowden initially did was different, more like what Daniel Ellsberg did. Ellsberg is a good model. He went to Congress, nobody there took his side, so he leaked the info to the public, faced the US government in court, and won. Nowadays he's regarded as a hero- but can you imagine if he had instead fled to the Soviet Union and given out information on American spy operations? If Snowden had followed Ellsberg's example he'd be in much better standing with the people. Hell, if his goal is really to martyr himself for the sake of the public, then that would be the way to go, even if he risked imprisonment. There'd be no justifiable way to paint him as the enemy in that case and the people would be out for the blood of any politician who portrayed him that way. But leaking information beyond PRISM, and seeking help with some of our biggest intelligence rivals, is damaging the public goodwill he would have otherwise have. At the very least he's compromising his own public position.

[QUOTE=catbarf;41204350]Bradley Manning wasn't whistleblowing, he just freely gave out military information to the public. What Snowden initially did was different, more like what Daniel Ellsberg did. Ellsberg is a good model. He went to Congress, nobody there took his side, so he leaked the info to the public, faced the US government in court, and won. Nowadays he's regarded as a hero- but can you imagine if he had instead fled to the Soviet Union and given out information on American spy operations? If Snowden had followed Ellsberg's example he'd be in much better standing with the people. Hell, if his goal is really to martyr himself for the sake of the public, then that would be the way to go, even if he risked imprisonment. There'd be no justifiable way to paint him as the enemy in that case and the people would be out for the blood of any politician who portrayed him that way. But leaking information beyond PRISM, and seeking help with some of our biggest intelligence rivals, is damaging the public goodwill he would have otherwise have. At the very least he's compromising his own public position.[/QUOTE] Ellsberg may have succeeded with what he did, but things are different today. The justice system in the USA is fucked beyond belief - If you need further confirmation, read a few of the other threads posted in the last few weeks. What Snowden did was to leave and avoid a show trial - Which is actually mere prudence and not cowardice. [editline]26th June 2013[/editline] To put it simply, Snowden may well have stayed to stand trial if he believed for a second the US government gave a shit anymore about the constitutional rights of American citizens.

[QUOTE=archangel125;41204410]Ellsberg may have succeeded with what he did, but things are different today. The justice system in the USA is fucked beyond belief - If you need further confirmation, read a few of the other threads posted in the last few weeks. What Snowden did was to leave and avoid a show trial - Which is actually mere prudence and not cowardice. [editline]26th June 2013[/editline] To put it simply, Snowden may well have stayed to stand trial if he believed for a second the US gave a shit about the constitutional rights of American citizens.[/QUOTE] That still doesn't jive with taking information with him unrelated to PRISM, and releasing some of it. It sure seems to indicate that whatever his motivations are, it goes beyond a desire to simply serve the American public. It depends on what he does now in Russia, but his actions are starting to look more like those of a defector than a whistleblower. And honestly, I don't think there's any real basis for the claim that the justice system is worse now. Ellsberg released the Pentagon Papers at a time of anti-Communist paranoia, when the administration felt that protests against it were tantamount to treason. If Snowden had stayed in the US then literally the only negative thing against him would be giving out information that he felt the American people had a right to know, and I have no doubt that the American people would overwhelmingly support him. Like I said, it's very different from Bradley Manning.

[QUOTE=catbarf;41204570]That still doesn't jive with taking information with him unrelated to PRISM, and releasing some of it. It sure seems to indicate that whatever his motivations are, it goes beyond a desire to simply serve the American public. It depends on what he does now in Russia, but his actions are starting to look more like those of a defector than a whistleblower. And honestly, I don't think there's any real basis for the claim that the justice system is worse now. Ellsberg released the Pentagon Papers at a time of anti-Communist paranoia, when the administration felt that protests against it were tantamount to treason. If Snowden had stayed in the US then literally the only negative thing against him would be giving out information that he felt the American people had a right to know, and I have no doubt that the American people would overwhelmingly support him. Like I said, it's very different from Bradley Manning.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't read too deeply into his going to China and Russia. The only reasonable avenue of escape would be to go through countries that aren't going to bend over and present their asses to the whims of the United States, and Russia/China are generally good in that regard. That they are opponents of the United States has less to do with a difference in political ideology than that they're both very powerful militarily, and China is getting enough economic clout to rival the USA.

[QUOTE=archangel125;41204623]I wouldn't read too deeply into his going to China and Russia. The only reasonable avenue of escape would be to go through countries that aren't going to bend over and present their asses to the whims of the United States, and Russia/China are generally good in that regard. That they are opponents of the United States has less to do with a difference in political ideology than that they're both very powerful militarily, and China is getting enough economic clout to rival the USA.[/QUOTE] I get that, I'm just concerned about what he's going to do wherever he ends up. He brought all that information with him for a reason and I doubt countries like Russia will just send him on his merry way with such a valuable opportunity.

Doubtless both of them will try very hard to get Snowden to defect, but they'd be happy, I think, simply to spite the US by helping him escape it. [editline]26th June 2013[/editline] I suppose what matters now is the strength of his resolve. [editline]26th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=catbarf;41204636]I get that, I'm just concerned about what he's going to do wherever he ends up. He brought all that information with him for a reason and I doubt countries like Russia will just send him on his merry way with such a valuable opportunity.[/QUOTE] I think that Russia and China both know that Snowden's information is not likely to be better than what their own plants within the NSA and CIA have already relayed to them. They're sheltering him now to make a show that they're not going to let the US order them around. In fact, that Snowden exposed such a massive scandal is the best bit - They just want to salt the wound.

[QUOTE=archangel125;41204410]Ellsberg may have succeeded with what he did, but things are different today. The justice system in the USA is fucked beyond belief - If you need further confirmation, read a few of the other threads posted in the last few weeks. What Snowden did was to leave and avoid a show trial - Which is actually mere prudence and not cowardice. [editline]26th June 2013[/editline] To put it simply, Snowden may well have stayed to stand trial if he believed for a second the US government gave a shit anymore about the constitutional rights of American citizens.[/QUOTE] Yes because oftentimes FP posts all those normally resolved court cases

[QUOTE=scout1;41204691]Yes because oftentimes FP posts all those normally resolved court cases[/QUOTE] Fair point. That said, remember what this guy exposed - The US government was secretly violating the constitutional rights of Americans. He was a spook - He knows that on certain points, the govenrment's interests will be protected at any cost. Do you honestly think he'd have won in court?

[QUOTE=archangel125;41204719]Fair point. That said, remember what this guy exposed - The US government was secretly violating the constitutional rights of Americans.[/QUOTE] No, he [B]thinks[/B] they were. [QUOTE=archangel125;41204719] He was a spook - He knows that on certain points, the govenrment's interests will be protected at any cost. Do you honestly think he'd have won in court?[/QUOTE] No, personally I don't. But you do.

[QUOTE=scout1;41204782]No, he [B]thinks[/B] they were. No, personally I don't. But you do.[/QUOTE] Nor do I, really. And if he was under the mistaken impression that Americans were being spied on, and the information he leaked was false, they wouldn't really be hunting him now.

[QUOTE=archangel125;41204827]Nor do I, really. And if he was under the mistaken impression that Americans were being spied on, and the information he leaked was false, they wouldn't really be hunting him now.[/QUOTE] The constitution guarantees him a fair trial. Do you think we're already betraying the constitution? Then why do you think this is so new and revelatory?

[QUOTE=archangel125;41204827]Nor do I, really. And if he was under the mistaken impression that Americans were being spied on, and the information he leaked was false, they wouldn't really be hunting him now.[/QUOTE] Well, no, he's being hunted because he gave out classified information relevant to national security, whether or not the activity it reveals is illegal.

[QUOTE=scout1;41204869]The constitution guarantees him a fair trial. Do you think we're already betraying the constitution? Then why do you think this is so new and revelatory?[/QUOTE] That's my point exactly. The constitution guarantees a lot of things, but the government has demonstrated a disregard for the constitution, PRISM is proof of that.

[QUOTE=archangel125;41204917]That's my point exactly. The constitution guarantees a lot of things, but the government has demonstrated a disregard for the constitution, PRISM is proof of that.[/QUOTE] Well apparently you didn't need PRISM for that, so why the outrage now?

[QUOTE=The golden;41205030]Lol as if the US government cares about the constitution. They may as well use it for toilet paper at this point.[/QUOTE] Is that the reason why we're not a dictatorship, because the government just loves us benevolently?

Why does everyone think hes a good guy? Everyone over reacted to PRISM, sensationalism really overtook you guys. PRISM takes metadata, the basic info, like where you are calling, who you are calling, and how long you are calling, then if stuff seems suspect, they need to get a court order to further track and record your calls. So if you start making calls to the Stans and Saudi Arabia yeah maybe this is "violating" your human right. dumb me please. And if you think ANY, ANY government plays by the rules, then you are probably one of those "lol anonymous strikes another devastating blow with that DDOS of the health services website!! They'll never retaliate " kids.

[QUOTE=SGTSpartans;41205099]Why does everyone think hes a good guy? Everyone over reacted to PRISM, sensationalism really overtook you guys. PRISM takes metadata, the basic info, like where you are calling, who you are calling, and how long you are calling, then if stuff seems suspect, they need to get a court order to further track and record your calls. So if you start making calls to the Stans and Saudi Arabia yeah maybe this is "violating" your human right. dumb me please. And if you think ANY, ANY government plays by the rules, then you are probably one of those "lol anonymous strikes another devastating blow with that DDOS of the health services website!! They'll never retaliate " kids.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure you understand the reason people are happy about what Snowden did, or why PRISM, even collecting metadata, was such a huge issue. But go ahead, feel free to generalize everyone who disagrees with you, your superior intellect shows more clearly that way.

[QUOTE=The golden;41205030]Lol as if the US government cares about the constitution. They may as well use it for toilet paper at this point.[/QUOTE] If the US doesn't care about their constitution, then how come WBC haven't been arrested yet? Answer: Freedom of Speech. I'm getting annoyed with people constantly saying that the U.S. ignores the constitution.

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;41205335]If the US doesn't care about their constitution, then how come WBC haven't been arrested yet? Answer: Freedom of Speech. I'm getting annoyed with people constantly saying that the U.S. ignores the constitution.[/QUOTE] Wrong. The WBC hasn't been arrested because they haven't compromised or otherwise posed a considerable threat to the darker dealings of the US government.

I have a question. Wasn't Snowden already in a government job before getting clearance to this information? Could he have originally legitimately wanted to work for the government, but seeked the higher job as a contractor for the access? I'm confused.

facepunch: where its socially acceptable to wear tinfoil underwear [editline]26th June 2013[/editline] time for a murder metaphor ok, so i get a job working for a large company, and i kill the ceo because i realize he's a terrible person now if i was planning to kill an executive before getting the job, and just kill the ceo because he happens to be a terrible person anyways

[QUOTE=JgcxCub;41203739]Uhm, excuse me? Where the fuck has all this anti-Snowden sentiment come from? I could understand if he'd gone into the task specifically to be some agent provocateur, deliberately trying to stir up shit by falsifying. However, so far, I have no reason to believe anything he's said is false. Why does it matter that he already knew there was bad stuff there? Does he have to somehow be trusting first and have that naivety broken to be "legit"? I don't get you guys at all.[/QUOTE] You dont seem to understand...its not that he's falsifying....[B][I]pay attention to what catbarf said.[/I][/B] This reminds me of what Juan Bautista "Tata" Yofre did here in Argentine while being head of the SIDE (Third World CIA)...he copied all the files of all the people involved in the last military junta and some files related to others....but he never released those related to others, which makes his "motive" legit. Now, sneaking into the NSA files, and taking information about both "domestic" AND [B][I]"international"[/I][/B] ops....is fucked up. Why would you care about what the USA does to other countries? In fact, it could actually detrimental to your country and society. Had he had a 100%...altruistic purpose (Can't think about it in another way), he would only have taken the domestic files. I follow what Catbarf, we should wait and see what he does. Then he can be hailed as the people's hero, or as a traitor who actually used the domestic info in favour of the enemy rather than for an altruistic (again) purpose.