Snowden had already decided to leak classified information before he had access to any of it - Polidicks

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;41205794]facepunch: where its socially acceptable to wear tinfoil underwear [editline]26th June 2013[/editline] time for a murder metaphor ok, so i get a job working for a large company, and i kill the ceo because i realize he's a terrible person now if i was planning to kill an executive before getting the job, and just kill the ceo because he happens to be a terrible person anyways[/QUOTE] That is a terrible metaphor and doesn't parallel the actual situation at all. That would be like if I took a cookie without asking and someone compared it to me stealing 4 billion US dollars.

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;41205969]You dont seem to understand...its not that he's falsifying....[B][I]pay attention to what catbarf said.[/I][/B] This reminds me of what Juan Bautista "Tata" Yofre did here in Argentine while being head of the SIDE (Third World CIA)...he copied all the files of all the people involved in the last military junta and some files related to others....but he never released those related to others, which makes his "motive" legit. Now, sneaking into the NSA files, and taking information about both "domestic" AND [B][I]"international"[/I][/B] ops....is fucked up. Why would you care about what the USA does to other countries? In fact, it could actually detrimental to your country and society. Had he had a 100%...altruistic purpose (Can't think about it in another way), he would only have taken the domestic files. I follow what Catbarf, we should wait and see what he does. Then he can be hailed as the people's hero, or as a traitor who actually used the domestic info in favour of the enemy rather than for an altruistic (again) purpose.[/QUOTE] I think that he was right to release the international information. When the USA is spying on its allies, too, that's pretty fucking rotten. Sure, every country does it. But the US got caught. Was the US honest in its dealings? No. Was Snowden right to expose the dishonesty? Yes. See, Snowden's a good guy because it's not just the US and US citizens he's concerned about. He doesn't believe that his country has the right to fuck everyone else's shit up while trumpeting about honour and liberty. So he exposes them. [editline]27th June 2013[/editline] Everyone knows that countries spy on their enemies. It's implicitly accepted. But when espionage on allies is uncovered, it can cause a diplomatic incident. Maybe I'm an asshole, but I like seeing The US government squirm a little. Why? It's a government that habitually meddles in the affairs of other countries, plays kingmaker, warmongers, and generally bullies the shit out of its scapegoat of the day, and all to protect its political and corporate interests. Sort of like Israel. The American people really, really deserve better. The United States and the ideal it was founded upon deserves better.

[QUOTE=archangel125;41206347]I think that he was right to release the international information. When the USA is spying on its allies, too, that's pretty fucking rotten. [/QUOTE] Why? They spy on us, too, lol. It helps maintain the peaceful democratic spirit and world politics.

See, US Allies may well have already known of the hacking, meddling, and espionage conducted against them, but they couldn't bring it up in public or do anything about it, because the US usually has its allies by the balls. Along comes Snowden, and makes everyone's day the world over by putting that information out there in the public eye. Now that everyone's pissed at the US government, its allies can finally voice some of their objections. This is a good thing.

[QUOTE=archangel125;41206435]See, US Allies may well have already known of the hacking, meddling, and espionage conducted against them, but they couldn't bring it up in public or do anything about it, because the US usually has its allies by the balls. Along comes Snowden, and makes everyone's day the world over by putting that information out there in the public eye. Now that everyone's pissed at the US government, its allies can finally voice some of their objections. This is a good thing.[/QUOTE] Yeah I feel real appreciative that your only concern is hurting my government which provides the highest standard of living in the western hemisphere

[QUOTE=scout1;41206540]Yeah I feel real appreciative that your only concern is hurting my government which provides the highest standard of living in the western hemisphere[/QUOTE] Aw, I'm sorry. Did I hurt your feelings? Cry me a river, bud. I'm sure you love your country, but some of us are more concerned with the pursuit of liberty, honest government and equality than with how many cars they can fit on their driveway. [editline]27th June 2013[/editline] As for the unfair dealings of the Canadian government, by all means, point them out, and I will agree wholeheartedly with you. Because I could name at least thirty off the top of my head.

[QUOTE=scout1;41206540]Yeah I feel real appreciative that your only concern is hurting my government which provides the highest standard of living in the western hemisphere[/QUOTE] Canadian living standards are better in my opinion, we get healthcare and high taxes.

[QUOTE=archangel125;41206556]Aw, I'm sorry. Did I hurt your feelings? Cry me a river, bud. I'm sure you love your country, but some of us are more concerned with the pursuit of liberty, honest government and equality than with how many cars they can fit on their driveway. [editline]27th June 2013[/editline] As for the unfair dealings of the Canadian government, by all means, point them out, and I will agree wholeheartedly with you. Because I could name at least thirty off the top of my head.[/QUOTE] Yeah so next time the canadian government arrests someone I can claim your government is actually not dedicated to those ideals because of a slightly different approach. Why don't you just start throwing around the term "police state"? [editline]27th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=laserguided;41206614]Canadian living standards are better.[/QUOTE] [citation needed]

[QUOTE=scout1;41206644]Yeah so next time the canadian government arrests someone I can claim your government is actually not dedicated to those ideals because of a slightly different approach. Why don't you just start throwing around the term "police state"? [editline]27th June 2013[/editline] [citation needed][/QUOTE] Go ahead.

Tired of people defending America I'd defect.

[QUOTE=scout1;41206644]Yeah so next time the canadian government arrests someone I can claim your government is actually not dedicated to those ideals because of a slightly different approach. Why don't you just start throwing around the term "police state"? [/QUOTE] I'll let you do that instead, since you're obviously given to hyperbole. See, you're turning this into a Canada VS. US thing, not me. I know Canada's government is fucked up too. Why do I pick on the US government all the time then? Because they wield massive power and influence on the international stage. And they use that power irresponsibly as all hell, making them a greater threat to democracy and liberty in the developing world than any terror organization or fascist regime. I pick on the US government more because every decision they make has global consequences, and they're not making good decisions. What they are doing is making enemies. And these enemies are waiting for a moment of weakness to make their move. Who suffers? The American people. People like you, growing fat and stupid, believing your government can do no wrong. Also people just trying to live their lives and raise their families, they'll be the ones bleeding for your government's sins. Everyone's got to pay the piper someday. When that day comes for the US government, shit's going to get real ugly.

[QUOTE=archangel125;41206719]I'll let you do that instead, since you're obviously given to hyperbole. See, you're turning this into a Canada VS. US thing, not me. I know Canada's government is fucked up too. Why do I pick on the US government all the time then? Because they wield massive power and influence on the international stage. And they use that power irresponsibly as all hell, making them a greater threat to democracy and liberty in the developing world than any terror organization or fascist regime. I pick on the US government more because every decision they make has global consequences, and they're not making good decisions. What they are doing is making enemies. And these enemies are waiting for a moment of weakness to make their move. Who suffers? The American people. People like you, growing fat and stupid, believing your government can do no wrong. Also people just trying to live their lives and raise their families, they'll be the ones bleeding for your government's sins. Everyone's got to pay the piper someday. When that day comes for the US government, shit's going to get real ugly.[/QUOTE] The US govt does plenty of wrong, and has done so in the past. Thanks for calling me fat and stupid. I'm neither. I voted for this government, and I endorse its actions to date, minus some of the political compromises in the senate in the idea of kind spirit.

[QUOTE=scout1;41206745]The US govt does plenty of wrong, and has done so in the past. Thanks for calling me fat and stupid. I'm neither. I voted for this government, and I endorse its actions to date, minus some of the political compromises in the senate in the idea of kind spirit.[/QUOTE] You don't get it. This isn't a debate of Democrat Vs. Republican. This isn't a foreign policy that's spanned just one administration. The USA has been doing this shit since World War II, and with complete consistency.

[QUOTE=archangel125;41206762]You don't get it. This isn't a debate of Democrat Vs. Republican. This isn't a foreign policy that's spanned just one administration. The USA has been doing this shit since World War II, and with complete consistency.[/QUOTE] What is "this shit"?

[QUOTE=scout1;41206782]What is "this shit"?[/QUOTE] I'll just quote one of my previous posts. [quote]A government that habitually meddles in the affairs of other countries, plays kingmaker, warmongers, and generally bullies the shit out of its scapegoat of the day, and all to protect its political and corporate interests.[/quote] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat]Want a citation?[/url]

[QUOTE=scout1;41206540]Yeah I feel real appreciative that your only concern is hurting my government which provides the highest standard of living in the western hemisphere[/QUOTE] Hey guys we know we're violating your privacy but here's a really nice house to make up for it.

[QUOTE=archangel125;41205246]I'm not sure you understand the reason people are happy about what Snowden did, or why PRISM, even collecting metadata, was such a huge issue. But go ahead, feel free to generalize everyone who disagrees with you, your superior intellect shows more clearly that way.[/QUOTE] haha when did I say i was of superior intellect at all? EDIT: Nvm i see you've tried to bait everyone who has disagreed with the fact the US is a tyrannic anti-citizen government. Double EDIT: And I'm not defending the actions of violating human rights but comon snowden is not a hero. Triple double Edit: tinfoil hat

Never mind the fact that we have one of the highest poverty rates among developed nations. Nice houses!

[QUOTE=archangel125;41206804]I'll just quote one of my previous posts. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat]Want a citation?[/url][/QUOTE] Yes, at the end of the day we use covert and diplomatic influence to get what we want. Please name a country that does not.

[QUOTE=scout1;41206836]Yes, at the end of the day we use covert and diplomatic influence to get what we want. Please name a country that does not.[/QUOTE] I don't see how this five-year old reasoning of "b-but he does it too!" justifies a single thing.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;41206856]I don't see how this five-year old reasoning of "b-but he does it too!" justifies a single thing.[/QUOTE] Well if we're all bastards, none of us are bastards relatively.

[QUOTE=scout1;41206836]Yes, at the end of the day we use covert and diplomatic influence to get what we want. Please name a country that does not.[/QUOTE] Actually, most non-militant countries, Canada included, doesn't stage coups d'etat to overthrow democracies and install dictatorships friendly to oil interests. The USA is a nation that projects its power militarily and economically. [editline]27th June 2013[/editline] But 'covert and diplomatic influence'. That's a real cute way to put the Iran coup. I mean, name one coup in another country that Canada has orchestrated, and I'll concede. Settlers in what became Canada cheated the natives out of their land, sure. That was a pretty awful thing. I mean, it wasn't genocide, but it was bad. Still, Canada can't be said to meddle in the affairs of other nations to even a fraction of the extent that the USA does.

[QUOTE=scout1;41206862]Well if we're all bastards, none of us are bastards relatively.[/QUOTE] So if every single government on earth started murdering their own people for their own gains it wouldn't objectively be a bad thing just because everyone else is doing it?

[QUOTE=scout1;41206745]The US govt does plenty of wrong, and has done so in the past. Thanks for calling me fat and stupid. I'm neither. I voted for this government, and I endorse its actions to date, minus some of the political compromises in the senate in the idea of kind spirit.[/QUOTE] "Fuck yeah gitmo!"

[QUOTE=archangel125;41206884]Actually, most non-militant countries, Canada included, doesn't stage coups d'etat to overthrow democracies and install dictatorships friendly to oil interests. The USA is a nation that projects its power militarily and economically.[/QUOTE] No you just spy on the G8 and make diplomatic deals while sending troops to support our missions to accomplish the same thing because we promised you the same benefits. Not to mention since the Quadripartite Pact you share intelligence with us. Including suspects in the 'War on Terror'. You're "enabling" us and reaping the benefits the whole way.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;41206893]So if every single government on earth started murdering their own people for their own gains it wouldn't objectively be a bad thing just because everyone else is doing it?[/QUOTE] sensationalist logic

[QUOTE=scout1;41206967]No you just spy on the G8 and make diplomatic deals while sending troops to support our missions to accomplish the same thing because we promised you the same benefits. Not to mention since the Quadripartite Pact you share intelligence with us. Including suspects in the 'War on Terror'. You're "enabling" us and reaping the benefits the whole way.[/QUOTE] Enabling. Heh. Sure, Canada's no saint. But we're no threat to the rest of the world, mostly because we don't fuck other countries' shit up unfairly, and because we don't play kingmaker. Continue to ignore my point, it's very entertaining. Why do I pick on the US government? Because the US government is a bully. It is underhanded, it is irresponsible, and worst of all, it is powerful. Too powerful. And so long as its corporate overlords are happy at the end of the day, the rest of the world can burn and bleed. And it has. I'm not happy with Canada's government either, but if you want to take what Snowden did to expose the underhandedness of the US government as a personal insult, be my guest. I guess they need at least one apologist.

-snip- nevermind not trying to continue this

[QUOTE=archangel125;41206987] Why do I pick on the US government? Because the US government is a bully. It is underhanded, it is irresponsible, and worst of all, it is powerful. Too powerful. And so long as its corporate overlords are happy at the end of the day, the rest of the world can burn and bleed. And it has.[/QUOTE] Sooo is that why we sued S&P? Is that why we prosecute companies for illegal dumping? We're in bed with the CEOs? Cause I'd really think we'd be repealing the sherman anti-trust act if we were gonna do that. Why isn't the US government taking a slice of the Alberta oil sands? Where's the kingmaking? We have all these tempting targets and dominions, say 1991 Germany, and yet they're not in our pocket. Why our president visited Germany last week and they're quite upset with him. Are we flexing our muscles? It's so very easy for the average citizen to say a government is corrupt, especially when he has no idea how that government runs. He can ignore the practical reality of state diplomacy, you know, bending over for OPEC or something because they're countries too. He could, say, not sign off on a coup because it might be a subjectively immoral thing to do. But at the end of the day that country is going to be surrounded by other countries willing and ready to take advantage of it. The government's job is to provide for its people. The US government does this. When it does this without interacting with any other nations at all, fantastic. When it must do this by initiating a coup or a surveillance network? So be it. The pros and cons must be weighed, and the benefits examined, but practical reality is that words do not always carry the day on this Earth. We, as well as any other western nation, prefer to negotiate with a democracy. We give. We take. Everyone is more or less happy at the end of the day. Part of the reason we so giddily throw foreign aid around, we fucking love a stable democracy that wants to talk. Sadly, not all countries are democracies, and not everybody is friendly. End result? Yeah, sometimes coups are a necessity. Personally I suggest you read up on some political texts, or just go down and dirty to geopolitik.

[QUOTE=scout1;41207079]Sooo is that why we sued S&P? Is that why we prosecute companies for illegal dumping? We're in bed with the CEOs? Cause I'd really think we'd be repealing the sherman anti-trust act if we were gonna do that. Why isn't the US government taking a slice of the Alberta oil sands? Where's the kingmaking? We have all these tempting targets and dominions, say 1991 Germany, and yet they're not in our pocket. Why our president visited Germany last week and they're quite upset with him. Are we flexing our muscles? It's so very easy for the average citizen to say a government is corrupt, especially when he has no idea how that government runs. He can ignore the practical reality of state diplomacy, you know, bending over for OPEC or something because they're countries too. He could, say, not sign off on a coup because it might be a subjectively immoral thing to do. But at the end of the day that country is going to be surrounded by other countries willing and ready to take advantage of it. The government's job is to provide for its people. The US government does this. When it does this without interacting with any other nations at all, fantastic. When it must do this by initiating a coup or a surveillance network? So be it. The pros and cons must be weighed, and the benefits examined, but practical reality is that words do not always carry the day on this Earth. We, as well as any other western nation, prefer to negotiate with a democracy. We give. We take. Everyone is more or less happy at the end of the day. Part of the reason we so giddily throw foreign aid around, we fucking love a stable democracy that wants to talk. Sadly, not all countries are democracies, and not everybody is friendly. End result? Yeah, sometimes coups are a necessity. Personally I suggest you read up on some political texts, or just go down and dirty to geopolitik.[/QUOTE] I'll explain this as simply as I can. There are certain countries the US can't touch without a damn good reason, because they are countries held in extremely high regard within the international community, countries with friends powerful enough to seriously damage the US and the alliances that benefit it. Canada, Germany, and most of Europe are good examples. As for suing those oil companies, that was because they fucked up in a major, very visible, very public way, and the government had to be seen to act so that people would continue to trust that government. But hey, they attack Pakistani civilians with hellfire missiles? Who gives a shit? They're just blowing up some brown people in Asia. Nobody cares, right? [editline]27th June 2013[/editline] I can sum this up: [B]It is important to the US government that they LOOK like they're the good guys, champions of liberty, justice and democracy, even if they only look that way to complete idiots. For the people who aren't idiots, they need to provide other incentives - Like a good standard of living, prospects of a happy retirement, a sense of national identity. That's why they're so angry at Snowden. He woke some people up, and exposed some of the US government's secret douchebaggery on the world stage. Shit, that's why they hunted Assange. He essentially did the same thing. The US hates to look bad. And anyone who can give people a glimpse of the ugly truth must be made an example of, to deter others from trying.[/B]