Piers Morgan Delivers One Final Blow To Gun Violence In Last Show
209 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44402036]Arm the workers until "they" take power.[/QUOTE]
Paris commune yo.
Revolution of February 1917 yo. And then October 1917.
The Spanish built an entire peasants and workers' army out of the trade unions to fight off the fascists in the 1930s.
I think you might find this quote from Marx interesting:
[quote]In a word, from the very moment of victory the workers’ suspicion must be directed no longer against the defeated reactionary party but against their former ally, against the party which intends to exploit the common victory for itself.
To be able forcefully and threateningly to oppose this party, whose betrayal of the workers will begin with the very first hour of victory, the workers must be armed and organized. The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition, and the revival of the old-style citizens’ militia, directed against the workers, must be opposed. Where the formation of this militia cannot be prevented, the workers must try to organize themselves independently as a proletarian guard, with elected leaders and with their own elected general staff; they must try to place themselves not under the orders of the state authority but of the revolutionary local councils set up by the workers. Where the workers are employed by the state, they must arm and organize themselves into special corps with elected leaders, or as a part of the proletarian guard. Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary. The destruction of the bourgeois democrats’ influence over the workers, and the enforcement of conditions which will compromise the rule of bourgeois democracy, which is for the moment inevitable, and make it as difficult as possible – these are the main points which the proletariat and therefore the League must keep in mind during and after the approaching uprising.[/quote]
but let's not argue over communism, let's argue over guns.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;44402014]You keep saying I'm sheltered, but like, you haven't actually proven I am.
Fairly sure if those looters really actually wanted to take shit they'd have grabbed guns themselves and tried, but no, they made the assessment that "maybe this isn't worth it". They were only looters after all, spur of the moment criminals. Which makes up a significant portion of crime. Sure guns deterred there, again, through nothing but fear. Which really isn't a healthy thing.[/QUOTE]
Know what else isn't healthy? Getting your shop burned down and beaten to death by a bunch of rioters.
[QUOTE=Foosili;44402131]Know what else isn't healthy? Getting your shop burned down and beaten to death by a bunch of rioters.[/QUOTE]
If you're gonna stand around whilst they burn your shit down and stuff, of course it's not going to go well for you. Shops and shit can be replaced, your life can't, don't fuck about and get your ass away from the danger perhaps?
Riots are basically temporary societal collapse anyway, so the normal rules don't exactly apply there. They're rare edge cases that you shouldn't really be using to support an argument for everday scenarios.
[editline]30th March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44402074]I'm not going to get into politics, because our system is corrupt as fuck, and no matter what you try, at the end of the day you end up serving whoever will re-elect you. The issue is that everyone makes a ton of promises to get put into office.. and then gaffs them off once they get into office.[/QUOTE]
Then use your fucking guns for the purpose you are constitutionally granted them? If your government is corrupt and making decisions that the American population are not happy with, revolt, do something, [B]anything[/B] to try and fix it. That's getting involved in politics, sitting on your ass being complacent that "it's never gonna change, time to stockpile" isn't going to actually do anything. At least fucking try.
[editline]30th March 2014[/editline]
Like, 500% for real. People such as yourself are why American politics is such a fucking joke. The total complacency is ludicrous.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;44402208]If you're gonna stand around whilst they burn your shit down and stuff, of course it's not going to go well for you. Shops and shit can be replaced, your life can't, don't fuck about and get your ass away from the danger perhaps?[/QUOTE]
Yeah because nobody tried to get away from the danger in those riots.
I love how people tell us how to govern our country, (though the US government does that 24/7) yet the people rating dumb predominantly live in countries the totally outlaw or severely limit civilians from owning firearms.
Piers Morgan is wrong.
There are millions of decent gun owners in America. We shouldn't let the actions of a few dictate what happens to the rest of gun owners.
@ JoeSkylynx
I hope if we ever get some cake back, that slice of cake is full auto. I would literally be willing to pay a $5000 tax stamp to own a a new machine gun. It beats spending in excess of $15000 for a used low end, machine gun.
Ok, for the people saying civilians shouldn't own firearms, did you even bother to take into account the shear size of the USA? Not all places in this country are developed and there are a large amount of rural areas where humans are not the only dangerous things around.
Guns were more of a necessity where I used to live. Now picture for a moment that you're living on a ranch. Things constantly lurk outside your house including but not limited to:
Snakes, porcupines, racoons ,skunks, deer, wolves, coyotes, foxes, bears, etc...
Oh and for some retarded ass reason, the town police department doesn't operate during late hours, so the response times of emergency services is increased due to responding units being located in the next town over.
Don't you dare fucking tell me that it's not appropriate to own a gun in those conditions. By the way, this is nothing compared to what some people in Alaska have to deal with.
Also the gun culture is so huge in the USA that many businesses have been built around it. Any outright ban would ruin the livelihood of so many people and probably increase the crime rate instead of reducing it. I'm pretty sure this is the last thing we'd need in the bad economy we have right now.
[QUOTE=TheMrFailz;44397653]Well it all depends on where you are really. If you lived in southern America you could probably find guns in a daisy patch there's so many of them and if you live in the north-eastern bit, the process of obtaining a gun is more or less equivalent to getting all the required paper work for being allowed to make weapons grade Uranium. Personally I'm pro gun my self but I think 0 regulation is bad while regulation like in NY and MA is utterly ridiculous.
For most folks in the North-east it can take ~half a year to a year to get a gun license (Pistol) /handgun/concealed carry permit. Not to mention the fact that you basically have to more or less have every requirement a room full of bored office workers could think of.
There's plenty more restrictions particularly up here in the North. 5 round magazines maximum, semi or bolt only (Unless you have a Class 3 permit or something along those lines and are using it to actively sell weapons to police forces. To get a Class 3 you'll probably need to have it hand delivered by Jesus from 2000 years in the past.). Pistol grips are apparently the spawn of Satan, collapsing stocks eat the souls of children, and a flash hider allows you to incinerate buildings somehow.
More or less you have to be a wizard to get all of these. Please pardon any inaccuracies in this as I'm just going by memory and things I've read in the past.[/QUOTE]
Don't you know that collapsing scoped flash hiders is what Hitler used to blow the Alamo to shreds and kill all those poor innocent baby eagles?
[QUOTE=SHIG;44397610]Only 12,280 firearm deaths[/QUOTE]
wow great work keep it up!
I would also like to add that most of the anti-gun people here have never held a gun, shot a gun nor do they own a gun.
[QUOTE=SexualShark;44403144]I would also like to add that most of the anti-gun people here have never held a gun, shot a gun nor do they own a gun.[/QUOTE]
Awesome assumptions man-dude! Totally makes the pro-gun side not look like petty manchildren who can't take critique!
Tip: you don't have to do something to understand it. I don't have to be a cook to recognise shit food, so why do I have to shoot a gun to understand the pros/cons of them?
I think despite all of Facepunchs differing opinions on gun control, we can hopefully at least all agree Piers Morgan is a cunt and no one wants him.
[QUOTE=The DooD;44403256]I think despite all of Facepunchs differing opinions on gun control, we can hopefully at least all agree Piers Morgan is a cunt and no one wants him.[/QUOTE]
Float him and Bieber off to a remote island and broadcast the carnage for all on free TV.
[QUOTE=SexualShark;44402892]I love how people tell us how to govern our country, (though the US government does that 24/7) yet the people rating dumb predominantly live in countries the totally outlaw or severely limit civilians from owning firearms.[/QUOTE]
perspective
[QUOTE=SexualShark;44403144]I would also like to add that most of the anti-gun people here have never held a gun, shot a gun nor do they own a gun.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by anti-gun? I'm pretty much against the loosening of gun laws here in the UK, but I've fired a weapon, and my uncle collects firearms and shoots for sport, and I know a few people who own shotguns, mostly for use as vermin control or for hunting.
On the other hand, would I advocate UK style laws in the US? For the most part no, it's a different situation and different culture, though I find it strange that some people on here argue that having a background of mental illness or being blind shouldn't prevent people carrying firearms.
It's also worth remembering that arguing that a constitution is a fixed thing is an odd thing to us Brits. We're one of the few countries in the world to have uncodified constitution - we're used to a legal system that can change relatively quickly, and is moulded more readily by current affairs. It doesn't mean that we'll happily see our rights privileges change or be removed, but we probably have more flexibility when it comes down to constitutional changes.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;44403235]Awesome assumptions man-dude! Totally makes the pro-gun side not look like petty manchildren who can't take critique!
Tip: you don't have to do something to understand it. I don't have to be a cook to recognise shit food, so why do I have to shoot a gun to understand the pros/cons of them?[/QUOTE]
You dont even live in the CONUS.
If you lived in the US and studied US history throughly, youd under stand why we have such a large gun culture.
Guns helped give birth to the US, we also used them to march your behinds out during the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812.
Now let me give you some food for thought, if an American came to the UK and started telling you how to rule your country, you'd be rightfully pissed.
Speaking of piss, this thread is basically pissing in a sea of piss.
[QUOTE=SexualShark;44403612]You dont even live in the CONUS.
If you lived in the US and studied US history throughly, youd under stand why we have such a large gun culture.
Guns helped give birth to the US, we also used them to march your behinds out during the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812.
Now let me give you some food for thought, if an American came to the UK and started telling you how to rule your country, you'd be rightfully pissed.
Speaking of piss, this thread is basically pissing in a sea of piss.[/QUOTE]
I know enough US history to understand why you have guns, your country doesn't exactly have a particularly long or complicated history after all. And sure, guns may have given you the country, but times change, you are now the greatest superpower in the world, with the biggest army and infrastructure I can reasonably think of. The need for personal firearms to stop us from taking you back is long gone.
If an American came to the UK and just insisted we start using US laws with no justification other than "freedom!!!", I'd be a bit perplexed that someone was trying that. Pissed? Not really because I know they have no impact on our laws, but it'd give me some interesting discussion. Something I don't regularly get when discussing gun control with pro-gun people really. You guys really need to remember, I'm the other side of the pond, I cannot affect your laws so stop getting so fucking pissed off when we bring up gun control, actually attempt to debate it like a normal human being and make decent points. You have an opportunity to show you're better people and you drop the ball so hard every time.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;44403235]Awesome assumptions man-dude! Totally makes the pro-gun side not look like petty manchildren who can't take critique!
Tip: you don't have to do something to understand it. [b]I don't have to be a cook to recognise shit food,[/b] so why do I have to shoot a gun to understand the pros/cons of them?[/QUOTE]
Not defending anyone's actions, but that analogy doesn't work at all.
Allow me to elaborate:
You're still experiencing the food first hand, and also have background knowledge of food quality from when you've eaten food before, whereas unless you've ever shot or been shot by a firearm, you don't really have any first hand experience.
There's that city not two hours away from where I live that's been fucking drowning in gun violence in the past years. There's one guy dead on the street after three other dudes decided to tear him off with bullets every month, sometimes more. People are getting fucking murdered really, REALLY harshly on the street with people getting killed by stray bullets.
Guns are illegal.
So yeah, Gun Violence has nothing to do with guns being legal or not. If an asshole who wants to shoot stuff has his mind set on that he's going to find a gun and he's going to use it regardless of whether or not it's illegal. People who actually believe making all guns illegals will solve gun violence are god damn retards.
[QUOTE=AlphaAGENT;44404016]Not defending anyone's actions, but that analogy doesn't work at all.
Allow me to elaborate:
You're still experiencing the food first hand, and also have background knowledge of food quality from when you've eaten food before, whereas unless you've ever shot or been shot by a firearm, you don't really have any first hand experience.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't stop someone from understanding the pros and cons of them in the slightest. They just may not happen to know what it actually feels like to fire one (which is totally irrelevant).
[editline]30th March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;44404041]So yeah, Gun Violence has nothing to do with guns being legal or not.[/QUOTE]
But it really does.
I mean, unless you want to totally defy logic and ignore the blatantly obvious thing that a lower supply means harder acquisition.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;44404042]That doesn't stop someone from understanding the pros and cons of them in the slightest. They just may not happen to know what it actually feels like to fire one (which is totally irrelevant).[/QUOTE]
Well yeah of course not.
I'm all for gun rights, and, inversely, gun control.
I don't agree that people should be allowed to own whatever firearm they want just for the hell of it, but I don't feel like people should be forced to do [url=http://lee.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/riflesfull.jpg]this[/url] kind of shit just to own a semi-automatic rifle.
It's just our ass-backwards government trying to nip it in the petals rather than at the bud.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;44404111]Making something illegal does not suddenly decrease its supply, and it doesn't suddenly remove black market from existence.
Making something legal will create a legal market for it, sure, but legal or not, the black market still exists.[/QUOTE]
This too.
Just because something is illegal doesn't make it impossible to get one, if someone want a firearm, be it a pistol, a rifle, or a submachine gun, they'll find a way to get one.
Mandatory gun safes, psychological evaluations, thorough background checks and public firearms safety courses in schools would definitely help curb the firearm violence problem.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;44404042]I mean, unless you want to totally defy logic and ignore the blatantly obvious thing that a lower supply means harder acquisition.[/QUOTE]
Making something illegal does not suddenly decrease its supply, and it doesn't suddenly remove black market from existence.
Making something legal will create a legal market for it, sure, but legal or not, the black market still exists.
We're not talking about perishable goods here, we're talking about guns. Guns are solid, non-perishable objects that can stay still in a single location for a decade before being sold. Guns being illegal in France doesn't stop criminals from easily getting their hands on some rifles from the soviet union that come from oversea. I mean, the mediterranean allows for really easy transit of merchandise between Europe, Eastern Europe and Africa, and from that one point, any item that reaches France can basically freely move around the country from that point.
On the same logic, The US is right north of Mexico, and considering it's a country that spans over most of an entire continent, it's not impossible to smuggle something in. Making guns illegal isn't going to remove those networks nor make them easier to track down.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;44404111]Making something illegal does not suddenly decrease its supply, and it doesn't suddenly remove black market from existence.
Making something legal will create a legal market for it, sure, but legal or not, the black market still exists.[/QUOTE]
I don't think any of us have ever argued that it would be instantaneous. But it will begin to lower the number of weapons in supply for the black market, seeing as most weapons there were once legal, and are usually stolen themselves. Or weapons that go "missing" from manufacturers (which will require your government to put some effort into to stop that).
American people have shown us time and time again they will hand guns in to amnesties and collection drives relatively easily. The gun culture is slowly fading in built up areas, where most of the gun crime is happening. However these laws will only work if all states implement them, no half measures, no fucking around. If even one state or city decides "nah...no regulation" it undermines the efforts of everyone else. Hence why Chicago and the likes are so awful for this stuff.
Does this mean he's coming back to england? I'd really rather this wasn't the case because he's truly one of the slimiest, most unpleasant figures on tv.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;44404148]I don't think any of us have ever argued that it would be instantaneous. But it will begin to lower the number of weapons in supply for the black market, seeing as most weapons there were once legal, and are usually stolen themselves. Or weapons that go "missing" from manufacturers (which will require your government to put some effort into to stop that).
American people have shown us time and time again they will hand guns in to amnesties and collection drives relatively easily. The gun culture is slowly fading in built up areas, where most of the gun crime is happening. However these laws will only work if all states implement them, no half measures, no fucking around. If even one state or city decides "nah...no regulation" it undermines the efforts of everyone else. Hence why Chicago and the likes are so awful for this stuff.[/QUOTE]
Again, France has made owning a gun illegal in basically 99% of cases, and the Black Market hasn't faded out, ever. If anything, it's made easier by how easy it is to go across the globe compared to like 50 years ago. You won't actually manage to reduce illegal weapon trafficking unless all wars stop. Until then, every time a conflict happens, you're going to have a huge concentration of weapons in one location, and those weapons will eventually find their way on the market. This is why ak-47s and other similar weapons are so common, they're basically used in every single gun murder in France, with some occasions being hunting rifles.
Now yeah, maybe in some generations people in the US are going to be less nuts about guns and additional legislation will one day be taken without a massive shitstorm around it, but that's not exactly going to happen soon and it's not exactly going to make the black market (which I would assume is the source of weapons for most crimes) fade out as well.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;44404212]Again, France has made owning a gun illegal in basically 99% of cases, and the Black Market hasn't faded out, ever. If anything, it's made easier by how easy it is to go across the globe compared to like 50 years ago. You won't actually manage to reduce illegal weapon trafficking unless all wars stop. Until then, every time a conflict happens, you're going to have a huge concentration of weapons in one location, and those weapons will eventually find their way on the market. This is why ak-47s and other similar weapons are so common, they're basically used in every single gun murder in France, with some occasions being hunting rifles.
Now yeah, maybe in some generations people in the US are going to be less nuts about guns and additional legislation will one day be taken without a massive shitstorm around it, but that's not exactly going to happen soon and it's not exactly going to make the black market (which I would assume is the source of weapons for most crimes) fade out as well.[/QUOTE]
Unsurprisingly, France still has a significantly lower number of total gun related deaths compared to the states.
3.0 per 100,000 compared to 10.39 per 100,000 (2009, the only real comparable years).
[url]http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/france[/url]
[url]http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states[/url]
French gun homicides however; 0.22 per 100,000 compared to 3.75 per 100,000 (again, 2009 for consistency).
To me that implies that some form of gun control massively lowers gun related crime.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;44404041]There's that city not two hours away from where I live that's been fucking drowning in gun violence in the past years. There's one guy dead on the street after three other dudes decided to tear him off with bullets every month, sometimes more. People are getting fucking murdered really, REALLY harshly on the street with people getting killed by stray bullets.
.[/QUOTE]
Jesus fucking Christ, do you live in [url=http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19810810&id=ok80AAAAIBAJ&sjid=AGgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4287,4545140]Miami-Dade in the 1980's?[/url]
[QUOTE=SexualShark;44403612]You dont even live in the CONUS.
If you lived in the US and studied US history throughly, youd under stand why we have such a large gun culture.
Guns helped give birth to the US, we also used them to march your behinds out during the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812.
Now let me give you some food for thought, if an American came to the UK and started telling you how to rule your country, you'd be rightfully pissed.
Speaking of piss, this thread is basically pissing in a sea of piss.[/QUOTE]
I live in America and I don't understand modern gun culture. You can't dismiss everyone's arguments just because they don't live in America.
[QUOTE=sambooo;44397328]I can never really understand how people can be so overwhelmingly in favour of guns being legal. I get that I'll probably be boxed to hell for this but seriously, they're just a silly thing to give to civilians.
But tbh the insane risk is worth it if it means I can post THE FIRST RULE OF GUN SAFETY every once in a while.[/QUOTE]
Look, I get people don't want to government infringing on their hobbies. If you enjoy using guns for entertainment and aren't endangering others, there are legitimate grievances to be had. But at the same time, I don't get why so many people refuse to even recognize the alternate opinion as anything but invalid, like people who believe [I]things made for the express purpose of killing other things[/I] should be removed from the market (or even just regulated a bit more) are just completely wrong, baseless, and stupid.
I don't really know where to stand on gun laws, but the rampant anger towards people who want to impose them is just absurd. Why can't gun owners at least see why it is valid? Disagreeing is fine, but is it [I]really[/I] worth getting so inflamed over?
I just don't get why people are so protective over it. I get it is a hobby, but you have to remember [I]it is a hobby involving potentially dangerous weapons that were made for the purpose of killing things.[/I] Guns weren't made to shoot at empty bottles or targets, they have been developed for hunting animals and killing people. This isn't the government taking away a hobby like stamp collecting that doesn't involve weapons made for killing things (although you could feasibly kill someone with enough stamps, I suppose).
There are arguments to be made for and against it, and like I said I don't know where to stand personally, but nobody should be insulting or berating someone just because they have a different opinion. It would be one thing if that opinion was baseless, but need I say again that [I]guns were made for killing things,[/I] so why is it such a leap-from-logic that people may want to ban them or regulate them?
[QUOTE=TheTalon;44399567]Ok, so all guns are now banned in the USA.
Now you have criminals being the only ones with guns.
Ok, so you've managed to somehow remove every weapon out of every civilian's hand.[/QUOTE]
Who exactly is saying ban all guns? I've heard plenty of talk about gun reform but I haven't heard a single serious discussion about banning all guns. In fact I've only heard this "ban all guns" rhetoric from the pro-gun lobbyists who seem to think gun reform equals all guns being banned and the National Guard being mobilized to go door to door and take everyone's weapons which is just as laughable as the "over my dead body, I'll go out in a blaze of glory" crowd.
I haven't heard a single member of the House or Senate say that all guns should be banned.
So perhaps discussion about gun reform instead would be more appropriate than debating rhetorical points with phantoms.
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