Visegrad Group (Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary): any proposal leading to introduction of

[Dark RaveN]

[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;48619493]70% of pakistani immigrants in norway are on wllfare benefit
two thirds of immigrants in general are on welfare, out of certain demographics are even 50% on welfare (link two- immigrants that arrived in the 80s - 50% on welfare)
[URL]http://stavrum.nettavisen.no/to-av-tre-innvandrere-pa-trygd/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Innvandrere-etter-25-ar-i-landet-Halvparten-pa-trygd-5106754.html[/URL]
[URL]https://www.ssb.no/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet?de=Trygd+og+stønad[/URL]

considering we have elderly people barely getting one hot meal a day, teachers getting fired because we can't afford to pay them, roads crumling, and hospitals getting centralized and made ineffective, i'd assume even the leftists could see why we would rather spend the money on our own problems than take 40k non-western immigrants in each year, that refuse to assimilate (rather teaching their kids their own language and keeping away from norwegians), blame any issues on cultural differences, and ethnic norwegians being harassed in eastern parts of oslo because they drink in public, dress lightly, women wear jeans and skirts, and guys who walk around with their girlfriends

depressingly enough, the leftists can only go into media to say "we need to be human and open our borders", "let them in", "look at me, i have a spare room i'll offer an immigrant to stay in"

people are TIRED of this

[editline]5th September 2015[/editline]

when people start to throw away water given because it's from BIG BAD MAGYAR! and scream and throw things at red cross aid workers because of the little red cross, i have absolutely zero sympathy for them and they should be sent back right away, with the actually suffering people needing the help being the ones who should get to stay

in those videos, the most vocal ones are the ones who need it the least
the families, the sick, elderly are all in the background not getting forwards

the thousands of single young men causing scenes aren't the ones who need help
so why are we letting them in?[/QUOTE]

This is both hearthwarming (due to even Norwegians opening their eyes) and frightening (due to Norwegians, of all people, are having a bad time) to hear.

[1legmidget]

Historically, many civilizations have fallen right at the point where large migratory populations failed to successfully integrate into the host society. I think there's something to be learned from the few that didn't.

The most successful societies utilized migratory populations to construct and operate public works and infrastructure. This seems to be the most effective way to integrate populations, but it isn't exactly easy to go about and can lead to all sorts of exploitation. Many of the wonders of the ancient world were constructed in such a manner, and as we all ought to know, most of that labor was forced. Exploitation happened here in the States with the railways out west if I'm not mistaken, same with many of the coal and iron mines. We probably can do better than that with our modern understandings and tendencies, but I really think it's essential that these sorts of projects are initiated for a variety of reasons:

-it keeps people busy. There's less risk of violence or other destructive behaviors if people are actively doing something.
-it benefits the local populace. Public works and infrastructure ultimately get used by the public (duh).
-it gives people a source of income. Even if it's government subsidized, that's still money that's going to be spent locally on goods and services daily.
-it integrates people culturally. It's pretty hard to dehumanize someone if they're using a hammer or shovel same as you every day.
-it ties people to the land/country. People take pride in what they helped build and end up wanting to stay and contribute more to their new communities.

For this to work, there have to be things that need to be built or repaired, and the actual doing is way tougher than saying 'just put them to work'. The issue of unskilled labor can be minimized of course by skilled overseers and directors sourced locally, and the end result should be a larger pool of skilled workers. Materials and tools for such projects might be sourced locally as well, offering rise to all sorts of business ventures. Everything about this seems to point in the direction of economic and societal growth. It won't be easy, but it probably will be easier than controlling the borders with violence or fixing the issues in the countries people are fleeing from (as that too will take violence). It is most certainly better than letting people starve and wreck everything out of desperation. With any luck European governments (and my own for that matter) will catch on and put people to work.

[godfatherk]

[QUOTE=Kecske;48620247]Shrinking population is considered bad because as the whole population get older, fewer working-age people is there to sustain a constantly growing social security system.
[/QUOTE]
If that were true, the pensions system could get restructured. Here, workers are obliged to take private pensions schemes from banks. Each month, a portion of their salary goes towards the bank, the bank then reinvests all that pooled capital, and hopefully, by the time those workers have retired, the bank would have had made more money from those investments.

Or people could/should be given the option to invest in stock, arable land, etc. other than mandatory pensions.

[QUOTE]fewer working-age people[/QUOTE]
As for this argument, although demographics would show it to hold truth, there is also the truth that as we advance into the future, people's work will be less in demand. Countries like Romania or Hungary already have ~400.000 unemployed, and about 3million(HU) and 9mil(R)) people live in the rural side of the country. And as you might be well aware, employment there is in very short supply, a majority of those living there primarily rely on subsistence agriculture for their income.
If the economic development of RO&HU increases, a lot more people will leave the country side and come to study & work in the cities, and thus that will offset any shortage in employment. In transilvania, this has already started to happen since a couple of years ago, because the region's cities have low(~3%) unemployment. This can't be said for Walachia or Moldavia though, where cities(except for the capital) still retain some high unemployment levels.

[editline]5th September 2015[/editline]

Also, employees have a workers' market of >400million to choose from, if Hungarian, Czech or Romanian companies will not be able to employ workforce from within, they could employ from all over the EU+EEA. And in total, there are some 20million unemployed in the EU. Adding to this would only increase the misery and hardships they have to endure in order to obtain employment in such a competitive market, where employment offers are not enough to match the unemployed.

[editline]5th September 2015[/editline]

[QUOTE=1legmidget;48620439]
The most successful societies utilized migratory populations to construct and operate public works and infrastructure. This seems to be the most effective way to integrate populations[/QUOTE]

That sounds discriminatory and close to slave-mentality when you deem a certain group of people worthy of only a type of work, wich is hard labour.

[Luni]

[QUOTE=godfatherk;48621003]That sounds discriminatory and close to slave-mentality when you deem a certain group of people worthy of only a type of work, wich is hard labour.[/QUOTE]

how is it discriminatory, though, when youre talking about hundreds of thousands of third-world refugees with no education or skills who are suited for literally nothing other than unskilled labor?

he (and most people) arent trying to say "you are brown subhuman, to the mines with you", but sadly what they are saying is similar enough to actual racists that people make the assumption really easily

it's a huge stumbling block when talking about immigration, that you really cant talk frankly about immigration problems without people thinking youre being a racist

[cherrytrees]

[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;48619493]70% of pakistani immigrants in norway are on wllfare benefit
two thirds of immigrants in general are on welfare, out of certain demographics are even 50% on welfare (link two- immigrants that arrived in the 80s - 50% on welfare)
[URL]http://stavrum.nettavisen.no/to-av-tre-innvandrere-pa-trygd/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Innvandrere-etter-25-ar-i-landet-Halvparten-pa-trygd-5106754.html[/URL]
[URL]https://www.ssb.no/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet?de=Trygd+og+stønad[/URL]

considering we have elderly people barely getting one hot meal a day, teachers getting fired because we can't afford to pay them, roads crumling, and hospitals getting centralized and made ineffective, i'd assume even the leftists could see why we would rather spend the money on our own problems than take 40k non-western immigrants in each year, that refuse to assimilate (rather teaching their kids their own language and keeping away from norwegians), blame any issues on cultural differences, and ethnic norwegians being harassed in eastern parts of oslo because they drink in public, dress lightly, women wear jeans and skirts, and guys who walk around with their girlfriends

depressingly enough, the leftists can only go into media to say "we need to be human and open our borders", "let them in", "look at me, i have a spare room i'll offer an immigrant to stay in"

people are TIRED of this

[editline]5th September 2015[/editline]

when people start to throw away water given because it's from BIG BAD MAGYAR! and scream and throw things at red cross aid workers because of the little red cross, i have absolutely zero sympathy for them and they should be sent back right away, with the actually suffering people needing the help being the ones who should get to stay

in those videos, the most vocal ones are the ones who need it the least
the families, the sick, elderly are all in the background not getting forwards

the thousands of single young men causing scenes aren't the ones who need help
so why are we letting them in?[/QUOTE]

I really wasn't expecting Norway of all places to have this issue. I feel for you guys, especially with the refusal to assimilate. It's extremely frustrating, especially in my area, and it just turns people into racists.

I used to keep my dog on a leash on walks because of those people that had some sort of irrational religious response but now I just don't care.

I was hoping to visit Norway next year.

[Taipan]

[QUOTE=Conscript;48616538]
3. Unskilled third world laborers, because they're exactly that, become a ghettoized underclass and when faced with half-naked women insecurely retreat into an illiberal, reactionary identity based on backwards Abrahamic morals from a region where the Enlightenment never spread.
[/QUOTE]

Actually the refugees who make it to the EU are the most skilled and Rich ones. Alot of them have (local) university educations.

I have 3 colleages 2 from Syria, one from Iraq that where refugees and now perform management functions.

[editline]6th September 2015[/editline]

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48619163]What fucking part of "they fled their country with only the shirts on their backs" do you not understand? These aren't high caliber, successful individuals immigrating to a country with a job waiting, they're desperate people who fled all the way to Europe escaping war in the Middle East.
[/QUOTE]

Like I said, they are usually highly trained and rich. The poor and middle class cannot even make it past the border. Hiring a boat to get you across the mediterranean costs thousands of euro's.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48619163]
They're going to be on government and international charity handouts.
[/QUOTE]
They usually wont actually.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48619163]
Thousands and thousands of people arriving with nothing at all and being fed and cared for by the local population wouldn't be an economic burden?
[/QUOTE]

Last year, [B]562.265[/B] refugees from all over the world fled to europe.
45% of those got accepted.
There are 740 million people in europe.
So every year the refugee population increases with: [B]0.03419179% of the total population.[/B]
Seriously, this is such a tiny drop in the bucket, that costs the country's absolutely nothing that it would be downright evil to deny them acces.

Imagine what would have happened if the UK had closed its borders when germany came rolling through europe in 1940. That would be downright evil as well.

Source:[URL]http://www.vluchtelingenwerk.nl/feiten-cijfers/cijfers/bescherming-europa[/URL]

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48619163]
I wouldn't be concerned about xenophobia if I were you, if people can't handle the truth then fuck them. That video legitimately makes me mad, I'd be so goddamn pissed if I was being ordered to drop off stuff and watch these fuckers toss it on the tracks the moment I set it down.[/QUOTE]

How the hell would you react if you are treated like shit and vermin by the country you come to, to ask for help. EU and eastern europe need to get their shit together and devise a humane way to handle and spread all these refugees. If the eastern european country's dont want to co-operate, they can leave for all i care.