• Chinese firm behind 'racist' detergent ad says foreign critics are 'too sensitive'
    225 replies, posted
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;50412372]the husband thinks that he will get an attractive black woman (as evident to the magazine he's looking at) for trading his wife. the punchline is that he doesn't get a black woman, but instead a black man (callback to previous commercial). he is punished for trying to trade his italian wife for a black woman. really the only thing I see offensive about this commercial is the fact that it's making fun of homosexuality, and that's really stretching it. I would have to hear an argument from someone who is actually offended by the commercial to understand why someone else would be offended by this.[/QUOTE] My point is that this assumption of the the creator's intent- that what came out of the washing machine was meant to be 'superior' to what went into it- is a case of reading too much into what is actually intended to be character-driven situational comedy as demonstrated by the follow-up video. The second Italian ad follows the same premise as the first, a person goes into a washing machine and comes out as someone else in an ironic or humorous way. One ad cannot be said to be racist if the other is not, since they are based on the same premise. If your analysis leads you to that conclusion then either your analysis must be wrong or you have gotten lost somewhere along the way. It's also important to mention that something being racist and something being offensive to somebody are two different things. Somebody could be offended by literally anything regardless of whether it is or isn't racist. Anybody can be offended by anything, it's entirely subjective and not a good litmus test for whether somebody or something is racist.
[QUOTE=srobins;50412112]Whoa, the Chinese even copy commercials? Seriously, can someone explain what the deal is with China producing so much counterfeit content?[/QUOTE] The copyright laws China has largely resemble those of the US and most other nations (although it lacks some things, like fair use protections) but the government rarely enforces them, especially when it comes to foreign copyrights. As a result the Chinese have made knockoffs for almost everything under the sun, from illegally copying and redistributing films to [URL="http://jalopnik.com/the-ten-greatest-chinese-knockoff-cars-ever-made-1694449178"]ripping off the designs for a ton of popular cars[/URL]. Other indirectly related laws only contribute to the problem, for example China only allows 20 foreign films to be shown within the country annually so many consumers rely on pirated copies to view anything that doesn't legally make it within its borders.
Is it truly possible to step back for two seconds and go "hey this is a detergent comercial, maybe i'm reading far too much into this" Because if your mind instantly skips to "oh my god racism systematic oppression offensive!" Something is truly wrong.
[QUOTE=EvilMattress;50412463]Is it truly possible to step back for two seconds and go "hey this is a detergent comercial, maybe i'm reading far too much into this" Because if your mind instantly skips to "oh my god racism systematic oppression offensive!" Something is truly wrong.[/QUOTE] I feel like if your first impressions dont comprise of "this is kinda racist" at least a little bit, then you might be trying to avoid a natural conclusion there You guys keep saying "Its just a detergent commercial" but I genuinely dont see how that changes anything at all
[QUOTE=Duck M.;50412488]I feel like if your first impressions dont comprise of "this is kinda racist" at least a little bit, then you might be trying to avoid a natural conclusion there You guys keep saying "Its just a detergent commercial" but I genuinely dont see how that changes anything at all[/QUOTE] I really only see it as racist if you think that being physically attracted to people similar to yourself is racist.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50412394]My point is that assuming that the creator's intent was that whatever comes out of the washing machine is 'superior' to what goes into it is a case of reading too much into what is in actuality intended as a bit of situational comedy as demonstrated by the follow-up video.[/QUOTE] The italian commercials and the chinese commercial are different, in my interpretation. First Italian Commercial: Setup: The husband wants to have sex with her while she's doing chores, the husband is depicted as unattractive with his body hair and his choice of wearing white socks and white underwear (one of the most attractive things to wear on it's own.) Punchline: The wife punishes him by stuffing the husband in a washing machine. The husband turns into an attractive black man and the product boasts about how it's good with colors. The wife enjoys the change. Second Italian Commercial: Setup: The husband is sitting around doing nothing, reading smut. The woman is annoyed about that and berates him about it. The husband looks at the cover of the magazine, noticing a black woman. As a callback to the previous commercial, the husband throws the wife in the washing machine, hoping for an attractive black woman (somewhat justified for having control over him, so in a way she's punished). Punchline: Instead, the man gets an attractive black man. A callback to the previous commercial. It's punishment for trying to trade his wife for an attractive black woman. The Chinese Commercial: Setup: An attractive black man who's done doing housework wants to have sex with his wife. He has paint stains all over his face and shirt. The wife punishes him for having paint stains all over his shirt via stuffing the husband in the washing machine. Punchline: The man comes out as a clean asian and presumably boats about how well it cleans. The wife enjoys the change. Like someone mentioned earlier, and what you're saying (I think), it's clear that they had 0 thought into making this commercial, which is why I'm not accusing the creators of pushing some sort of agenda because they're too stupid for that. It's an almost exact rip-off the well-written italian commercials, except worse because they didn't have a properly constructed joke. The punchline is literally "Black man turns asian via cleaning" and the setup is "husband is punished for working and then wanting consensual sex" so it comes off with a confusing message.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;50412488]I feel like if your first impressions dont comprise of "this is kinda racist" at least a little bit, then you might be trying to avoid a natural conclusion there You guys keep saying "Its just a detergent commercial" but I genuinely dont see how that changes anything at all[/QUOTE] I didn't find it racist at all the first time I watched it so And me saying "it's just a detergent comercial" means I really doubt they made the comercial with racist intentions. It's just how you're interpeting it imo. Until the creator comes out and confirms it all we can do is speculate on the intention. In my opinion on it's own the commercial is harmless.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;50412488]I feel like if your first impressions dont comprise of "this is kinda racist" at least a little bit, then you might be trying to avoid a natural conclusion there You guys keep saying "Its just a detergent commercial" but I genuinely dont see how that changes anything at all[/QUOTE] What does "kinda racist" mean? Surely something is either racist or it isn't. Do you mean that the ads are racially insensitive or offensive?
Little do people realize that these are secretly ads for a newly discovered slipgate technology disguised as washing machines. Wake up sheeple.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;50412498]The italian commercials and the chinese commercial are different, in my interpretation. First Italian Commercial: Setup: The husband wants to have sex with her while she's doing chores, the husband is depicted as unattractive with his body hair and his choice of wearing white socks and white underwear (one of the most attractive things to wear on it's own.) Punchline: The wife punishes him by stuffing the husband in a washing machine. The husband turns into an attractive black man and the product boasts about how it's good with colors. The wife enjoys the change. Second Italian Commercial: Setup: The husband is sitting around doing nothing, reading smut. The woman is annoyed about that and berates him about it. The husband looks at the cover of the magazine, noticing a black woman. As a callback to the previous commercial, the husband throws the wife in the washing machine, hoping for an attractive black woman (somewhat justified for having control over him, so in a way she's punished). Punchline: Instead, the man gets an attractive black man. A callback to the previous commercial. It's punishment for trying to trade his wife for an attractive black woman. The Chinese Commercial: Setup: An attractive black man who's done doing housework wants to have sex with his wife. He has paint stains all over his face and shirt. The wife punishes him for having paint stains all over his shirt via stuffing the husband in the washing machine. Punchline: The man comes out as a clean asian and presumably boats about how well it cleans. The wife enjoys the change. Like someone mentioned earlier, and what you're saying (I think), it's clear that they had 0 thought into making this commercial, which is why I'm not accusing the creators of pushing some sort of agenda because they're too stupid for that. It's an almost exact rip-off the well-written italian commercials, except worse because they didn't have a properly constructed joke. The punchline is literally "Black man turns asian via cleaning" and the setup is "husband is punished for working and then wanting consensual sex" so it comes off with a confusing message.[/QUOTE] While I agree that the chinese version of the commercial is not as well set up, is it possible that some of the differences between the commercials are due to cultural differences? Like you said, one of the key points of the Italian version was that the 'unattractive' white man is turned into an 'attractive' black man; but then you claimed that in the chinese commercial the 'attractive' black man was transformed into a 'clean' chinese man. Could it be possible that, by Chinese cultural standards, the Chinese man was more attractive than the black man but by our western standards he isn't? All of the ads might come off as intentionally racist if somebody doesn't understand the cultural hints that relate to the actual intention, but that's that's the case with a lot of fictional storytelling. Standards of beauty are different in different parts the world: [URL]http://www.totalbeauty.com/mobile/content/slideshows/global-beauty-standards-141201[/URL]
[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;50412518]Little do people realize that these are secretly ads for a newly discovered slipgate technology disguised as washing machines. Wake up sheeple.[/QUOTE] So that's where all my fucking socks go
[QUOTE=Zyler;50412522]While I agree that the chinese version of the commercial is not as well set up, is it possible that some of the differences between the commercials are due to cultural differences? Like you said, one of the key points of the Italian version was that the 'unattractive' white man is turned into an 'attractive' black man; but then you claimed that in the chinese commercial the 'attractive' black man was transformed into a 'clean' chinese man. Could it be possible that, by Chinese cultural standards, the Chinese man was more attractive than the black man but by our western standards he isn't? All of the ads might come off as intentionally racist if somebody doesn't understand the cultural hints that relate to the actual intention, but that's that's the case with a lot of fictional storytelling.[/QUOTE] I don't know chinese culture or tradition to make an educated judgement, I know that cleanliness is is a huge thing in East Asian cultures but if their idea of cleanliness is white skin then I must have to say that their idea of cleanliness is pretty trash.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;50412488]I feel like if your first impressions dont comprise of "this is kinda racist" at least a little bit, then you might be trying to avoid a natural conclusion there You guys keep saying "Its just a detergent commercial" but I genuinely dont see how that changes anything at all[/QUOTE] My first impressions didn't comprise of any thoughts about racism and it only really crossed my mind because you people brought it up in the first place. :downs:
[QUOTE=Cocacoladude;50411591]Grow some fucking skin jesus christ...[/QUOTE] Can I have some of yours, mister? I was born with thick skin.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;50412549]I don't know chinese culture or tradition to make an educated judgement, I know that cleanliness is is a huge thing in East Asian cultures but if their idea of cleanliness is white skin then I must have to say that their idea of cleanliness is pretty trash.[/QUOTE] Note I'm not saying that the Chinese man's skin color is what makes him attractive. I was arguing that the Chinese man might be more attractive to Chinese people in the same way the black man is more attractive to westerners. That said... (From the article I posted): [QUOTE]In various parts of Asia, pale, white skin is revered as a sign of affluence and attractiveness. In Japan, women avoid the sun at all costs (hello, parasols), while skin-care products with whitening agents are the norm in places like China and Thailand. Sometimes, it's hard to find products without bleaching properties. [/QUOTE] Although that might only apply to female beauty standards in those countries and not to men. A better source would be this one: [URL]http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/life/2009-02/25/content_7510815.htm[/URL] [QUOTE]This kind of "refined" taste can be traced back to the 3rd century, when learned men of the Wei and Jin dynasties sang the praises of the delicate beauty of Chinese equivalents of Adonis. One of them was Pan An, whose beauty was chronicled in as many as three articles. When Pan walked by in the street, women threw fruit at him, the ancient Chinese equivalent of bouquets. Every time he went out he could have returned home with a basket of fruit. An ugly man named Zuo Si tried imitating him but only got mud slung at him by female onlookers. It is strange that even at that time, when men had to plow fields and push carts for a living, muscular strength was not a sought-after trait. Peng says attractive men are not "effeminate", but rather "middle sex", and can be found in other cultures as well. He cites David Beckham and Brad Pitt as examples.[/QUOTE] Male attractiveness in China is not about having a six pack and big muscles, so the 'attractive' black man would not be considered attractive in China, instead the Chinese man who came out of the washing machine would be considered extremely attractive by Chinese standards of beauty.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50412578]Note I'm not saying that the Chinese man's skin color is what makes him attractive. I was arguing that the Chinese man might be more attractive to Chinese people in the same way the black man is more attractive to westerners. That said... (From the article I posted): Although that might only apply to female beauty standards in those countries and not to men. A better source would be this one: [URL]http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/life/2009-02/25/content_7510815.htm[/URL] Male attractiveness in China is not about having a six pack and big muscles, so the 'attractive' black man would not be considered attractive in China, instead the Chinese man who came out of the washing machine would be considered extremely attractive by Chinese standards of beauty.[/QUOTE] So why wasn't it a dirty Chinese guy who got shoved into the washer? I don't anything racist was really intended, but I think you're trying a little too hard to leap from some vague, generalized idea of China's collective sense of beauty to immediately concluding that it's just obvious they would think Blacks are totally uggo.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;50412630]So why wasn't it a dirty Chinese guy who got shoved into the washer? I don't anything racist was really intended, but I think you're trying a little too hard to leap from some vague, generalized idea of China's collective sense of beauty to immediately concluding that it's just obvious they would think Blacks are totally uggo.[/QUOTE] Because it was parodying an Italian commercial where a white man turns into a black man. By that logic, why didn't the Italian commercial have a white man who turned into another white man? Is the Italian ad suggesting that all white men are ugly and all black men are muscular Adonis's? Standards of beauty are not (usually) related to one's skin colour. The black man in the Italian commercial is attractive because of his rippling muscles because those are the Western standards of male beauty, not because he is black. The Chinese man is attractive because of his boyish good looks that are reminiscent of a jpop band member, as per the Chinese or East Asian standards of male beauty. I don't think it really has anything to do with skin colour in either example, I'm sorry I should have made that clearer. Race is a part of the joke, but you really need to read into either commercial to construe either as being racist. The humour comes from the juxtaposition between the person going into the washing machine and the person who comes out. I said "big muscles and a six pack are not attractive in China, so the black man in this commercial would not be considered attractive" and you interpreted that to mean "Chinese people think black people are uggo"?
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50410888]so somehow it's not racist if a white guy is turned black with the subtitle "[B]COLORED IS BETTER[/B]" but it's racist if a black guy is turned chinese yeah ok[/QUOTE] Am I the only one that thinks that is stupid too? I don't think representing any race as filth is good. It might not be a declarative statement about race, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a stupid and shitty thing to do.
I can understand that a lot of people are offended because using skin color as an element of a joke is taboo in a big part of the world and particularly in the US. That doesn't explain how exactly is the joke "racist". How is racial inequality, discrimination or anything like that implied in the skit?
[QUOTE=Talishmar;50412664]I can understand that a lot of people are offended because using skin color as an element of a joke is taboo in a big part of the world and particularly in the US. That doesn't explain how exactly is the joke "racist". How is racial inequality, discrimination or anything like that implied in the skit?[/QUOTE] I don't know why people are surprised it's being called racist when they're describing black skin color as filth. I wonder if they've ever heard of ethnic cleansing? Again, if they want to say they're not racist, that's fine, but then they're just painfully stupid. Either or works for me.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50412674]I don't know why people are surprised it's being called racist when they're describing black skin color as filth. I wonder if they've ever heard of ethnic cleansing? Again, if they want to say they're not racist, that's fine, but then they're just painfully stupid. Either or works for me.[/QUOTE] Where did you get the "ethnic cleansing" bit from? When did Chinese people ethnically cleanse African American people? It would have different conotations if a black man went into the washing machine and a European, Caucasian person came out. Or better yet, a black man goes in and a German man in a nazi uniform comes out and does a hitler salute. There's no more historical precedent or cultural significance to a black man going in and a Chinese man coming out than there is to a white man going in and a black man coming out. Unless you believe the black man in the Italian commercial was ethnically cleansing the white Italian man? This is like the supposed anti-immigration message in the Angry Birds movie. The premise of both versions of the commercials are the same, a unattractive or average looking person gets stuffed into a washing machine and a completely different looking attractive person comes out. The main difference is that, to us, the male model who comes out of the washing machine in the Italian version is very attractive but the man who comes out in the Chinese version isn't. If the man in the Chinese version wasn't meant to be more attractive, then why would his wife be happier after the 'transformation'? It's not something that's meant to be thought about that deeply.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50412674]I don't know why people are surprised it's being called racist when they're describing black skin color as filth. I wonder if they've ever heard of ethnic cleansing? Again, if they want to say they're not racist, that's fine, but then they're just painfully stupid. Either or works for me.[/QUOTE] I think ignorant works better. I doubt any racism was intended. Because quite honestly my mind didn't even think about racism until it was pointed out as such.
Welcome to 21st century, when everything you do is racist, sexist, oppressive or a combination. Oh and don't forget about first world problems: when life is too good you bound to create problems out of thin air just because.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50412696]Where did you get the "ethnic cleansing" bit from? When did Chinese people ethnically cleanse African American people? It would have different conotations if a black man went into the washing machine and a European, Caucasian person came out. Or better yet, a black man goes in and a German man in a nazi uniform comes out and does a hitler salute. There's no more historical precedent or cultural significance to a black man going in and a Chinese man coming out than there is to a white man going in and a black man coming out. Unless you believe the black man in the Italian commercial was ethnically cleansing the white Italian man? This is like the supposed anti-immigration message in the Angry Birds movie.[/QUOTE] Okay, so what you're saying is that people are allowed to make comparisons of black people to filth so long as they were not historically responsible for it? [url=http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/24/world/asia/china-tinted-prejudice/]Oh[/url] well. [url=http://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/08/on-being-african-in-china/279136/]At[/url] least [url=http://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/07/on-being-black-in-china/277878/]there[/url] has [url=http://world.time.com/2012/06/20/a-nigerian-dies-in-china-and-racial-tensions-heat-up/]never[/url] been [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/6560168/Reality-TV-show-exposes-racism-in-China.html]nor[/url] is [url=http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/africans-in-chinachinesemigrantsinafricachinaafricarelations.html]there[/url] currently [url=http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/19/racism-against-blacks-universal]still[/url] a [url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/07/28/a-chinese-state-newspaper-ran-this-racist-cartoon-of-obama-in-africa/]problem[/url] of [url=http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1925589,00.html]black[/url] racism in China. (But I'm sure someone will find a problem with one of these links and say, "See? There's no racism in China at all!") Is everyone missing the part where an Asian woman refuses to date a black guy? He's gotta be "cleaned" into being Asian. Am I seriously one of the few people looking at this and thinking "you absolutely shouldn't be making comparisons like this"? And in some of the articles I've posted, black people are questioned about whether or not they're supposed to be seen as beautiful for their skin color, or if they really want to be black.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50412752]Okay, so what you're saying is that people are allowed to make comparisons of black people to filth so long as they were not historically responsible for it? [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/24/world/asia/china-tinted-prejudice/"]Oh[/URL] well. [URL="http://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/08/on-being-african-in-china/279136/"]At[/URL] least [URL="http://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/07/on-being-black-in-china/277878/"]there[/URL] has [URL="http://world.time.com/2012/06/20/a-nigerian-dies-in-china-and-racial-tensions-heat-up/"]never[/URL] been [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/6560168/Reality-TV-show-exposes-racism-in-China.html"]nor[/URL] is [URL="http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/africans-in-chinachinesemigrantsinafricachinaafricarelations.html"]there[/URL] currently [URL="http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/19/racism-against-blacks-universal"]still[/URL] a [URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/07/28/a-chinese-state-newspaper-ran-this-racist-cartoon-of-obama-in-africa/"]problem[/URL] of [URL="http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1925589,00.html"]black[/URL] racism in China. (But I'm sure someone will find a problem with one of these links and say, "See? There's no racism in China at all!") Is everyone missing the part where an Asian woman refuses to date a black guy? He's gotta be "cleaned" into being Asian. Am I seriously one of the few people looking at this and thinking "you absolutely shouldn't be making comparisons like this"? And in some of the articles I've posted, black people are questioned about whether or not they're supposed to be seen as beautiful for their skin color, or if they really want to be black.[/QUOTE] I don't think the man in the Chinese commercial is being compared to filth. Do you think the Italian man in the Italian version was being compared to filth? About the whole cleaning part, what about the Italian woman refusing the Italian man until he turned into an attractive black man? Does that imply that Italian people hate white Italian men? Everything else you've posted is beyond the scope of this topic. Whether or not Chinese people are or can be racist (a lot of them probably are) is irelevant to whether the people who made this commercial are racist (unless you believe all Chinese people are racist by association). Also, it's a minor point, but the black man and the Chinese woman in the commercial are already married or at least living together. So you're point about her refusing to date him makes no sense. If anything, the commercial nonchalantly showing two people of different ethnicities living together in that way without making a big deal about it is a positive thing. When she stuffs him into a washing machine and he comes out as a jpop boy band singer, it's a lighthearted joke about the day-to-day life of a couple in a long term relationship, not propaganda for ethnic cleansing.
[QUOTE=EvilMattress;50412499]I didn't find it racist at all the first time I watched it so And me saying "it's just a detergent comercial" means I really doubt they made the comercial with racist intentions. It's just how you're interpeting it imo. Until the creator comes out and confirms it all we can do is speculate on the intention. In my opinion on it's own the commercial is harmless.[/QUOTE] No yeah I dont think it was made with racist intentions either, but I definitely got racist vibes as my first impression, which is what I was trying to say. I think it was a very poor idea for a commercial and was seriously misguided, but not malicious in intent. [editline]29th May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Zyler;50412501]What does "kinda racist" mean? Surely something is either racist or it isn't. Do you mean that the ads are racially insensitive or offensive?[/QUOTE] Yeah I guess. I dont really see the difference I suppose, but you love your semantics as I've learned before lol
[QUOTE=Duck M.;50412770]No yeah I dont think it was made with racist intentions either, but I definitely got racist vibes as my first impression, which is what I was trying to say. I think it was a very poor idea for a commercial and was seriously misguided, but not malicious in intent. [editline]29th May 2016[/editline] Yeah I guess. I dont really see the difference I suppose, but you love your semantics as I've learned before lol[/QUOTE] It's less semantic and more "do I use this really loaded term that comes off as accusing the person I'm directing it towards of being a really horrible person when it isn't my intention, or do I use a term that's more accurate and less likely to be insulting for no reason?" Something is racist when saying or doing it makes you a racist. Being racially insensitive or offensive is not inherently a bad thing or derogatory, it just means that someone somewhere is offended by what you said or did (which they are entirely within their rights to do so). And since someone somewhere is probably offended by literally everything, it isn't good to use racial insensitivity or offensiveness as a litmus test for racism. Neither political correctness or offensiveness are entirely good or bad. They are tools used to get a provocative message accross. This is especially apparent when people are offended by things such as gay marriage or trans rights- sometimes it's good when people are offended.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50412784]It's less semantic and more "do I use this really loaded term that comes off as accusing the person I'm directing to of being a really horrible person when it isn't my intention, or do I use a term that's more accurate and less likely to be insulting for no reason?" Something is racist when saying or doing it makes you a racist. Being racially insensitive or offensive is not inherently a bad thing or derogatory, it just means that someone somewhere is offended by what you said or did (which they are entirely within their rights to do so). And since someone somewhere is probably offended by literally everything, it isn't good to use racial insensitivity or offensiveness as a litmus test for racism.[/QUOTE] Yes I definitely think you're on the mark, there. I think racially insensitive is the perfect word to describe these commercials.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50412769]I don't think the man in the Chinese commercial is being compared to filth. Do you think the Italian man in the Italian version was being compared to filth?[/quote] I think there's something to be said about perceptions. Say a black person comes in and uses the word "nigger". It's not so bad, right? Some black people might have something to say about even black people using that word, but by and large, it isn't that bad. So say a white person comes in and drops the word "nigger". Suddenly, everyone's on board and ready to go after that guy for possible racism and/or just being fucking stupid. I'm the guy calling him stupid. When you view the first one, you can sit back and at the very least say, "Okay, they're transforming someone from their own race into someone else - it's obviously meant to be funny. They're not degrading themselves." That's not available in the Chinese version. You see someone of a race who is actively discriminated against in China and around the world being turned into someone more "suitable" and "clean". It's the equivalent to a white person coming in and saying "nigger" - maybe it's not to scale but the analogy is there. It's possible for the word "nigger" to be used relatively inoffensively as a white person - I've seen white people say "what's up my nigga", or I've seen people use it within a funny context, i.e. Louis C.K. It's still definitely easy for a white person to use "nigger" in a way that sounds ambiguous, and in most of those cases I'm ready to call them out for being an idiot. Same with any racial slur in the book. That's why the excuse that it's just copying another commercial or it's an example of reverse racism doesn't work. [QUOTE=Zyler;50412769]Everything else you've posted is beyond the scope of this topic. Whether or not Chinese people are or can be racist (a lot of them probably are) is irelevant to whether the people who made this commercial are racist (unless you believe all Chinese people are racist by association).[/quote] It might be past the immediate topic, but it's in response to: Also, it's a minor point, but the black man and the Chinese woman in the commercial are already married or at least living together. So you're point about her refusing to date him makes no sense. If anything, the commercial nonchalantly showing two people of different ethnicities living together in that way without making a big deal about it is a positive thing. When she stuffs him into a washing machine and he comes out as a jpop boy band singer, it's a lighthearted joke about the day-to-day life of a couple in a long term relationship, not propaganda for ethnic cleansing.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Zyler;50412696]Where did you get the "ethnic cleansing" bit from? When did Chinese people ethnically cleanse African American people?[/quote] I said "ethnic cleansing" because it's in regards to the idea of being "cleaned of a race". I mentioned Chinese racism because you questioned the connection of "ethnic cleansing" and because I think you have to be an idiot to not realize that there are races out there that have been wiped out because of their race. [QUOTE=Zyler;50412696]It would have different conotations if a black man went into the washing machine and a European, Caucasian person came out. Or better yet, a black man goes in and a German man in a nazi uniform comes out and does a hitler salute.[/quote] Refer to the articles I referenced talking about the discrimination against black people in China. [QUOTE=Zyler;50412696]There's no more historical precedent or cultural significance to a black man going in and a Chinese man coming out than there is to a white man going in and a black man coming out.[/quote] So this idea keeps getting thrown around: "I mean it's not like a black person goes in and a white person comes out." It is. In China, the majority of people are Chinese. There's racism against black people. In America, the majority of people are white. There's racism against black people. The variable that's changed is race, but everything else is the same: a majority vs. a minority that is constantly discriminated against. [QUOTE=Zyler;50412696]It's not something that's meant to be thought about that deeply.[/QUOTE] That's cool, because it didn't take very long for me to think the commercial through. It's at the very least a shit commercial, and at the very most an example of the shitty ways some Chinese think of black people.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50412911]I think there's something to be said about perceptions. Say a black person comes in and uses the word "nigger". It's not so bad, right? Some black people might have something to say about even black people using that word, but by and large, it isn't that bad. So say a white person comes in and drops the word "nigger". Suddenly, everyone's on board and ready to go after that guy for possible racism and/or just being fucking stupid. I'm the guy calling him stupid. When you view the first one, you can sit back and at the very least say, "Okay, they're transforming someone from their own race into someone else - it's obviously meant to be funny. They're not degrading themselves." That's not available in the Chinese version. You see someone of a race who is actively discriminated against in China and around the world being turned into someone more "suitable" and "clean". It's the equivalent to a white person coming in and saying "nigger" - maybe it's not to scale but the analogy is there. It's possible for the word "nigger" to be used relatively inoffensively as a white person - I've seen white people say "what's up my nigga", or I've seen people use it within a funny context, i.e. Louis C.K. It's still definitely easy for a white person to use "nigger" in a way that sounds ambiguous, and in most of those cases I'm ready to call them out for being an idiot. Same with any racial slur in the book. That's why the excuse that it's just copying another commercial or it's an example of reverse racism doesn't work. It might be past the immediate topic, but it's in response to: Also, it's a minor point, but the black man and the Chinese woman in the commercial are already married or at least living together. So you're point about her refusing to date him makes no sense. If anything, the commercial nonchalantly showing two people of different ethnicities living together in that way without making a big deal about it is a positive thing. When she stuffs him into a washing machine and he comes out as a jpop boy band singer, it's a lighthearted joke about the day-to-day life of a couple in a long term relationship, not propaganda for ethnic cleansing. I said "ethnic cleansing" because it's in regards to the idea of being "cleaned of a race". I mentioned Chinese racism because you questioned the connection of "ethnic cleansing" and because I think you have to be an idiot to not realize that there are races out there that have been wiped out because of their race. Refer to the articles I referenced talking about the discrimination against black people in China. So this idea keeps getting thrown around: "I mean it's not like a black person goes in and a white person comes out." It is. In China, the majority of people are Chinese. There's racism against black people. In America, the majority of people are white. There's racism against black people. The variable that's changed is race, but everything else is the same: a majority vs. a minority that is constantly discriminated against. That's cool, because it didn't take very long for me to think the commercial through. It's at the very least a shit commercial, and at the very most an example of the shitty ways some Chinese think of black people.[/QUOTE] About the whole black man versus white man saying 'nigger' thing, what relation does that have to the intention of the people behind this commercial. First of all, they never say 'nigger'. Secondly, the people who made this commercial aren't white, they're presumably Asian. And thirdly, as you yourself state the use of the word 'nigger' is either racist or not depending on how it is used and not just who says it. Finally, there's nothing transformative about the use of the word 'nigger' by itself- it's a word used to describe somebody. It can be used in a transformative context, but it doesn't have anything to do with the set up or pay off of the commercial in question. To your second point, I don't know how you managed to respond to a point I hadn't made prior to your previous comment, but to the idea of Chinese racism- it has no bearing on whether the specific people who made this specific commercial are in any way racist. Unless you believe that these examples you've cited demonstrate that all Chinese people are racist. When you talk about the social context of the West versus East Asia, have you considered that the reason people are anxious about the perceived animosity between white people and black people in the West (and mainly in America, not so much in Europe) it's due to historical grievances such as slavery and apartheid and not just being a minority versus being a majority. Asian-Americans in the West for example do not normally receive the same sensitivity despite being even more of a minority. In places like South Africa, there's perceived animosity between white people and black people despite black people being the majority. Perhaps in China they don't have the same cultural associations between black people and oppression. Note, I'm not arguing whether they should or shouldn't. As a result of this, I can't say that the makers of the commercial were deliberately racist. They were, at most, racially insensitive- mostly to people coming from a western audience who can't understand Chinese cultural references. Your argument seems to be "there are racist Asian people so it's okay to substitute any and all Asian people for any and all white people in any context with regards to race and treat them as if they were white." The situation of race relations in Asia is different from the situation of race relations in the West, so much so that it isn't really that easy to compare the two, much less substitute one for the other.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.