• Riot police raid illegal gypsy site Dale Farm - 7 arrested, many injured
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[QUOTE=thisispain;32877802]people who hate gypsies suck and just do it because they need to hate people. probably to make themselves feel better or something, i don't know or care, i just don't want them to do it on this forum because i like this place and they leave their shit everywhere.[/QUOTE] People who hate them for no reason obviously is bad. But some people have had a legitimately bad experience with some traveler sites so you can't really blame everyone for having a negative point of view. I'm trying to be as fence on this as possible because I have no problems with travelers, and it's something my mother is heavily into researching, having done essays about their history etc (I should send some to you they are quite good and a good read), but in some places, the travelers who move in do quite a lot of bad to a community.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32877692]Okay, then say it was 'oriental' or 'latino' or any other thing that is already a word for something. The point is if you're aware of a distinction, either make that distinction or just don't be ridiculous about it. If there's thieves then call those people thieves, and if there are murderers then call those people murderers, but I fail to see the point in going "these gypsies are raised to be thieves" or "the gypsy culture is all about thievery and not working". [editline]20th October 2011[/editline] Sorry, I'm not going to go find your sources for you.[/QUOTE] [url]http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.abc.es/20100930/sociedad/gitanos-escolarizacion-201009301530.html&ei=rnqgTs2SB-eQ4gST0aj0BA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQ7gEwAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgitanos%2Beso%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26channel%3Dsuggest%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D643%26prmd%3Dimvns[/url] [url]http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.elpais.com/articulo/sociedad/absentismo/escolar/gitanos/cae/34/puntos/Primaria/1994/elpepusoc/20101029elpepusoc_2/Tes&ei=rnqgTs2SB-eQ4gST0aj0BA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=4&sqi=2&ved=0CD0Q7gEwAw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgitanos%2Beso%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26channel%3Dsuggest%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D643%26prmd%3Dimvns[/url] [url]http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.publico.es/espana/344157/el-80-del-alumnado-gitano-no-termina-eso&ei=rnqgTs2SB-eQ4gST0aj0BA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&sqi=2&ved=0CEoQ7gEwBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgitanos%2Beso%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26channel%3Dsuggest%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D643%26prmd%3Dimvns[/url] [url]http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.larazon.es/noticia/6344-el-80-de-los-alumnos-gitanos-no-termina-la-eso&ei=rnqgTs2SB-eQ4gST0aj0BA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=7&sqi=2&ved=0CFwQ7gEwBg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgitanos%2Beso%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26channel%3Dsuggest%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D643%26prmd%3Dimvns[/url] [url]http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.noticiasdealava.com/2010/10/22/sociedad/euskadi/ocho-de-cada-diez-alumnos-gitanos-que-empiezan-la-eso-la-abandonan-antes-de-finalizar&ei=rnqgTs2SB-eQ4gST0aj0BA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=8&sqi=2&ved=0CGUQ7gEwBw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgitanos%2Beso%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26channel%3Dsuggest%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D643%26prmd%3Dimvns[/url] ESO=obligatory school education Roma=gypsies
[QUOTE=Charybdis;32877820]Yeah, I came in here reading peoples posts talking about about Romani gypsies. They're not the kind of gypsies being affected by the Dale Farm situation, the Irish Traveler Gypsies are. Yes, the Romanis may be the traditional "gypsies" , but over here, they are both put under the general term "Gypsy"[/QUOTE] "Dale Farm is part of a Romany Gypsy and Irish Traveller halting site on Oak Lane in Crays Hill, Essex, United Kingdom. Dale Farm houses over 1,000 people, the largest Traveller concentration in the UK." Quite obviously not just Irish.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32877796]Of course thieves can be gypsies. Thieves can be anybody.[/QUOTE] That's all I was saying. People took issue with it, and I defended my points. You've put my point into finer words, as it were. [QUOTE=Megafanx13;32877796]He gave me a google search, the search terms are literally just "the gypsies".[/QUOTE] Well, I can't really speak Spanish. So I guess that isn't a source.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;32877779]We don't distinguish between the two over here normally because the majority of the Gypsy groups here are Irish Travelers, and everybody I know, and almost everybody they know, knows what kind of Gypsy we are talking about.[/QUOTE] you don't distinguish because people in england don't know what the fuck they are talking about when they call things gypsies. it's a sad fact yes but i blame the schools. gypsies are not irish travelers, they have different cultures, different blood, and different languages. [QUOTE=hexpunK;32877779]"Nigger" is not a race, yet blacks were referred to as "niggers" for the longest time. So why the fuck should this apply to gypsies?[/QUOTE] what? so when you say gypsies, you don't mean gypsies as in the gypsy people, but you still mean gypsies? that's totally retarded and it's not fooling anyone. you mean gypsies as in gypsy people. those are the people you hate. don't try to intellectualize your hatred. the fact that you bring up nigger is even more confusing... what the fuck does that have to do with anything?
[QUOTE=OnDemand;32877831][url]http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.abc.es/20100930/sociedad/gitanos-escolarizacion-201009301530.html&ei=rnqgTs2SB-eQ4gST0aj0BA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQ7gEwAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgitanos%2Beso%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26channel%3Dsuggest%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D643%26prmd%3Dimvns[/url] [url]http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.elpais.com/articulo/sociedad/absentismo/escolar/gitanos/cae/34/puntos/Primaria/1994/elpepusoc/20101029elpepusoc_2/Tes&ei=rnqgTs2SB-eQ4gST0aj0BA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=4&sqi=2&ved=0CD0Q7gEwAw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgitanos%2Beso%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26channel%3Dsuggest%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D643%26prmd%3Dimvns[/url] [url]http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.publico.es/espana/344157/el-80-del-alumnado-gitano-no-termina-eso&ei=rnqgTs2SB-eQ4gST0aj0BA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&sqi=2&ved=0CEoQ7gEwBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgitanos%2Beso%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26channel%3Dsuggest%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D643%26prmd%3Dimvns[/url] [url]http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.larazon.es/noticia/6344-el-80-de-los-alumnos-gitanos-no-termina-la-eso&ei=rnqgTs2SB-eQ4gST0aj0BA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=7&sqi=2&ved=0CFwQ7gEwBg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgitanos%2Beso%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26channel%3Dsuggest%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D643%26prmd%3Dimvns[/url] [url]http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.noticiasdealava.com/2010/10/22/sociedad/euskadi/ocho-de-cada-diez-alumnos-gitanos-que-empiezan-la-eso-la-abandonan-antes-de-finalizar&ei=rnqgTs2SB-eQ4gST0aj0BA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=8&sqi=2&ved=0CGUQ7gEwBw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgitanos%2Beso%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26channel%3Dsuggest%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D643%26prmd%3Dimvns[/url][/QUOTE] So they're articles about how Romani kids don't finish school? And this causes them to become criminals? [editline]20th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Cone;32877842]Well, I can't really speak Spanish. So I guess that isn't a source.[/QUOTE] His translated sources all say the same thing: A lot of Romani kids don't finish school.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32877832] Quite obviously not just Irish.[/QUOTE] does it really make any difference!? They didnt have planning permission for the land. It doesnt matter if evicting them may cause people to shout racist at you. They are not above the law, no matter how many racist calls you make.
[QUOTE=themooselord;32877874]does it really make any difference!? They didnt have planning permission for the land. It doesnt matter if evicting them may cause people to shout racist at you. They are not above the law, no matter how many racist calls you make.[/QUOTE] So what do you think is going to happen after they're evicted? They most likely still won't be able to get a job, and now they'll just be even more homeless.
[QUOTE=icemaz;32877829]But some people have had a legitimately bad experience with some traveler sites so you can't really blame everyone for having a negative point of view.[/QUOTE] yes i can for the same reason when someone gets robbed by a black dude it's stupid to legitimately consider all black people thieves. it doesn't make a difference if they are a race or a people or a culture, hatred is hatred and hatred is bad because it gets people oppressed and killed once enough stupidity becomes collected in a cloud. i should know, jews are hated more than gypsies.
Why have we gone back into the subject of race? I thought everyone agreed no one hated the Romani ethnicity
[QUOTE=themooselord;32877874]does it really make any difference!? They didnt have planning permission for the land. It doesnt matter if evicting them may cause people to shout racist at you. [/QUOTE] the point that you are so obviously missing is that this raid would not have happened if they weren't gypsies. and looking by how people act, it's self-fucking-evident that people treat them like scum. don't be so amazingly daft by just talking about eviction, that's not the point.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32877859]you don't distinguish because people in england don't know what the fuck they are talking about when they call things gypsies. it's a sad fact yes but i blame the schools. gypsies are not irish travelers, they have different cultures, different blood, and different languages. what? so when you say gypsies, you don't mean gypsies as in the gypsy people, but you still mean gypsies? that's totally retarded and it's not fooling anyone. you mean gypsies as in gypsy people. those are the people you hate. don't try to intellectualize your hatred. the fact that you bring up nigger is even more confusing... what the fuck does that have to do with anything?[/QUOTE] I agree it wasn't a good comparison, but you have to understand when we say "Gypsy" we mean something totally different to what you do. Like if I say "Cake", I may mean a cookie where you would obviously understand it as "Cake". So, y'see, we DO NOT mean Romanis, Irish Travellers, or any other race since that'd be racism and racism is bad. I cannot stress this enough.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32877914] I thought everyone agreed no one hated the Romani ethnicity[/QUOTE] i'm arguing that anyone who says they hate gypsies, but not romani people, are full of shit.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32877862]So they're articles about how Romani kids don't finish school? And this causes them to become criminals? [/QUOTE] What does their ethnicity have to do with it? I'm fairly certain it's to do with the traveller life style not their ethnicity. [editline]20th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;32877936]i'm arguing that anyone who says they hate gypsies, but not romani people, are full of shit.[/QUOTE] So you can only hate traveller lifestyle if you also hate the ethnicity? So you think that all Romani people are travellers?
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32877832]"Dale Farm is part of a Romany Gypsy and Irish Traveller halting site on Oak Lane in Crays Hill, Essex, United Kingdom. Dale Farm houses over 1,000 people, the largest Traveller concentration in the UK." Quite obviously not just Irish.[/QUOTE] well as far as i knew, it was just Irish now i know
[QUOTE=thisispain;32877859]you don't distinguish because people in england don't know what the fuck they are talking about when they call things gypsies. it's a sad fact yes but i blame the schools. gypsies are not irish travelers, they have different cultures, different blood, and different languages. what? so when you say gypsies, you don't mean gypsies as in the gypsy people, but you still mean gypsies? that's totally retarded and it's not fooling anyone. you mean gypsies as in gypsy people. those are the people you hate. don't try to intellectualize your hatred. the fact that you bring up nigger is even more confusing... what the fuck does that have to do with anything?[/QUOTE] Holy fuck you are a lost cause sometimes I swear. Its like you purposefully look for arguments and pull shit out of your ass constantly to keep it going. This will be my last post for this particular argument, but it is not me admitting I am wrong or you are right, because seriously, you aren't. If you actually bothered to read, I pointed out that from what I have experienced living here [B]all my life[/B], and talking to people from various backgrounds, generations and such. We do not refer to their race when we call them Gypsies, shit, I'd be lucky to talk to someone who knows their specific race, but they know Gypsy is not a race. The "niggers" thing fits in well, if you can't work that out then you must be either severely mentally handicapped, or doing it on purpose. When slavery was the in thing, blacks were always called niggers, as we all know. This can be compared to use calling both the Romani and Irish Traveler groups "Gypsies", as it is not their race, it is just a name. But even after those years of calling black people niggers, we do not think nigger is a race, so why the hell should Gypsy be considered a race when it clearly is not? It is just a name that a certain group are called. Not all Irish Travelers are considered gypsies, and not all Romani would be considered gypsies by people here, only the trouble makers, the ones that exhibit what we would call common gypsy behavior.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32877924]the point that you are so obviously missing is that this raid would not have happened if they weren't gypsies. and looking by how people act, it's self-fucking-evident that people treat them like scum. don't be so amazingly daft by just talking about eviction, that's not the point.[/QUOTE] Actually, I'm fairly certain it would have happened to anybody who lit their homes on fire to make it look like a vicious attack and set up barbed-wire barricades. Because people who do that are generally dicks, particularly because they put up barbed-wire.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32877802]people who hate gypsies suck and just do it because they need to hate people. probably to make themselves feel better or something, i don't know or care, i just don't want them to do it on this forum because i like this place and they leave their shit everywhere.[/QUOTE] Most people who dislike gypsies often dislike them because of distasteful first-hand experiences, and by the looks of most of facepunch, that's a pretty damn huge number of bad experiences. How do you hate someone just because you hate someone? It doesn't work like that.
[QUOTE=Cone;32877931]I agree it wasn't a good comparison, but you have to understand when we say "Gypsy" we mean something totally different to what you do.[/QUOTE] yeah i fucking got that, thanks, but it's still bullshit. i've lived in the UK for a very long time before coming to america so don't educate me on sweets please. you do mean romani or irish traveller but you find a way to intellectualize the hatred. it's cognitive dissonance. you found a way to hate gypsies without feeling like a racist dickhead. good on you. it's still wrong.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32877900]yes i can for the same reason when someone gets robbed by a black dude it's stupid to legitimately consider all black people thieves. it doesn't make a difference if they are a race or a people or a culture, hatred is hatred and hatred is bad because it gets people oppressed and killed once enough stupidity becomes collected in a cloud. i should know, jews are hated more than gypsies.[/QUOTE] See that's not my thinking, I don't know if it's just me being brought up in a pretty worldly accepting way but I just don't associate things like that. What I'm saying is there are a few people out there who do, and like I said earlier I'm probably just assuming on behalf of the British posters in this thread but that's not how I think. I don't hate gypsies and travelers, but I don't like the people who will park up on a local public field, create litter, cause a few problems then move onto the next town. This is what most British people associate the word Gypsy with because there are people out there who will do this and not actually be a Gypsy or Traveler, but call themselves as such.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32877924]the point that you are so obviously missing is that this raid would not have happened if they weren't gypsies. and looking by how people act, it's self-fucking-evident that people treat them like scum. don't be so amazingly daft by just talking about eviction, that's not the point.[/QUOTE] 10 years they have been warning them about the lack of planning permissions. Neighbors have had deaths threats shouted at them, rubbish throw into their back yard.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32877924]the point that you are so obviously missing is that this raid would not have happened if they weren't gypsies.[/QUOTE] Actually, it would if the residing group were both refusing to leave, and were a public nuisance.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;32877963] The "niggers" thing fits in well, if you can't work that out then you must be either severely mentally handicapped, or doing it on purpose. When slavery was the in thing, blacks were always called niggers, as we all know. This can be compared to use calling both the Romani and Irish Traveler groups "Gypsies", as it is not their race, it is just a name.[/QUOTE] yeah but niggers is a racist slur for black people so i don't understand why you are comparing that to calling romani and irish traveler people gypsies, are you seriously not seeing how hilariously daft that is?
[QUOTE=thisispain;32877969]yeah i fucking got that, thanks, but it's still bullshit. i've lived in the UK for a very long time before coming to america so don't educate me on sweets please. you do mean romani or irish traveller but you find a way to intellectualize the hatred. it's cognitive dissonance. you found a way to hate gypsies without feeling like a racist dickhead. good on you. it's still wrong.[/QUOTE] Aannnd you just ignored everything I said. Why?
[QUOTE=icemaz;32877972]See that's not my thinking, I don't know if it's just me being brought up in a pretty worldly accepting way but I just don't associate things like that. What I'm saying is there are a few people out there who do, and like I said earlier I'm probably just assuming on behalf of the British posters in this thread but that's not how I think.[/QUOTE] look you either end bigotry or you create it there's no in between. this shit about gypsies creates bigotry and people need to see why that is wrong.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;32877963]The "niggers" thing fits in well, if you can't work that out then you must be either severely mentally handicapped, or doing it on purpose. When slavery was the in thing, blacks were always called niggers, as we all know. This can be compared to use calling both the Romani and Irish Traveler groups "Gypsies", as it is not their race, it is just a name.[/QUOTE] No, nigger is not considered a race, but whenever anyone said nigger it was always a black person, and whenever anyone says gypsy, it's always these Irish travelers or Romani people. Like it or not, you are referring to ethnic groups.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32877896]So what do you think is going to happen after they're evicted? They most likely still won't be able to get a job, and now they'll just be even more homeless.[/QUOTE] They are travelers, their homes are caravans. How about they get a plot of land for themselves, and build a community for themselves. You know, like the other 32 traveler pitches a few meters away from those being evicted.
[QUOTE=icemaz;32877972]See that's not my thinking, I don't know if it's just me being brought up in a pretty worldly accepting way but I just don't associate things like that. What I'm saying is there are a few people out there who do, and like I said earlier I'm probably just assuming on behalf of the British posters in this thread but that's not how I think. I don't hate gypsies and travelers, but I don't like the people who will park up on a local public field, create litter, cause a few problems then move onto the next town. This is what most British people associate the word Gypsy with because there are people out there who will do this and not actually be a Gypsy or Traveler, but call themselves as such.[/QUOTE] You're making a convoluted semantics argument that falls apart under any form of scrutiny, if you had an ounce of rationale you'd refer to thieves as thieves and criminals as criminals.
[QUOTE=Cone;32878009]Aannnd you just ignored everything I said. Why?[/QUOTE] i don't care that's why.
[QUOTE=themooselord;32878028]They are travelers, their homes are caravans. How about they get a plot of land for themselves, and build a community for themselves. You know, like the other 32 traveler pitches a few meters away from those being evicted.[/QUOTE] So you want them to stop squatting and move a few meters away to squat there?
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