[QUOTE=Viper123_SWE;44693623]That's an incredibly dumb way of thinking, if so then we could might as well split up [B]every country in the world[/B] to smaller ones for each minority that exists.
[/QUOTE]
Again your missing the bit about them being entirely misrepresented by their government which they didn't even vote for. It's not just about minority its also about politics. You don't vote for someone yet they can pass laws. That seems like a reasonable reason for secession. Them going to Russia on the other hand might not be in everyone's best interests.
The worst part is, if Ukraine even tries to fight back they have a 99% chance of getting stormed by the Russian army.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;44693602]They were happy there until the government they voted for got violently ousted and replaced with a government no one voted for which started passing laws against the minority in question.
It is a government they did not vote for, which is taking the country in a direction they don't want to go and is passing laws giving them a hard time. Hardly democratic.
The East certainly shouldn't go to Russia but I believe the people there certainly have the right to choose their government. Measures should have been taken to ensure the people had fair representation before laws were passed and they felt alienated.[/QUOTE]
That's the problem, the divide in the country is so severe that nomatter what happens, one side will be unhappy. The western half hated Yanukovych and his pro-Russian agenda, and now the eastern half hates Turchynov and his pro-EU agenda. The western half rebelled and took over Kiev so they could control their own future, and now the east is rebelling by trying to break off, and Russia is giving them full support out of spite against Kiev.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;44693602]They were happy there until the government they voted for got violently ousted and replaced with a government no one voted for which started passing laws against the minority in question.
It is a government they did not vote for, which is taking the country in a direction they don't want to go and is passing laws giving them a hard time. Hardly democratic.
The East certainly shouldn't go to Russia but I believe the people there certainly have the right to choose their government. Measures should have been taken to ensure the people had fair representation before laws were passed and they felt alienated.[/QUOTE]
Those laws were never passed, so stop spreading misinformation. Where Ukrainian parliament ousted Yanukovich, they are planning to hold a new election to establish a democratic government. Rebels do not want this, they don't want to serve legitimate Ukrainian goverment. Instead, they want express referendum for joining with Russia, just like in Crimea. Like in Crimea, this movement boils down to land grab by Russia to secure strategic resources.
So what do Ukrainians living in eastern Ukraine want, do they perhaps want to stay? This seems to have been forgotten as everyone seems to be only paying attention to what russians of eastern Ukraine want.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;44693688]Again your missing the bit about them being entirely misrepresented by their government which they didn't even vote for. It's not just about minority its also about politics. You don't vote for someone yet they can pass laws. That seems like a reasonable reason for secession. Them going to Russia on the other hand might not be in everyone's best interests.[/QUOTE]
Rebels don't want Ukrainian government, democratic or not. They want [B]Russian[/B] government. This is evident by them stepping up their action to hold fake referendum [B]before[/B] Ukraine can take democratic action. This is important because if Ukraine would hold election, Putin would have harder time claiming Ukraine's government being illegitimate, and thus secession and annexation being less justifiable.
Russia's actions can not be justified from democratic and human rights perspectives. Only from power politics perspective.
[QUOTE=uzikus;44693432]So now you think we should give land to the minorities, just because they don't like the country they live in?
No, they should move where they want to, not give them land for free.[/QUOTE]
Yes? If the majority in a region wants to secede I don't see why the government should be allowed to retain control of it by using military force. That's oppressive and undemocratic.
There should be a referendum to settle the issue (an actual unbiased referendum of course, not Crimea all over again).
[QUOTE=Kljunas;44693787]Yes? If the majority in a region wants to secede I don't see why the government should be allowed to retain control of it by using military force. That's oppressive and undemocratic.
There should be a referendum to settle the issue (an actual unbiased referendum of course, not Crimea all over again).[/QUOTE]
You are aware that Ukraine's armed response is a response to armed pro-russian seizures of government buildings, right? I dont entirely agree with armed responses in most situations, except in situations where the aggressors are armed and/or shown to be willing to use force to achieve their goals.
[QUOTE=Kljunas;44693787]Yes? If the majority in a region wants to secede I don't see why the government should be allowed to retain control of it by using military force. That's oppressive and undemocratic.
There should be a referendum to settle the issue (an actual unbiased referendum of course, not Crimea all over again).[/QUOTE]
Yeah, let's hold referendums for all ethnic minorities in Russia. Any guesses if any of them wants to say in Federation?
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QP6sM5VnUQ[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQGRJN4Radk[/media]
Highly relevant right now. Proof of Russian citizens in Eastern Ukraine along with tactics the pro-russian militants used to try and subvert journalistic opinion.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;44694043][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QP6sM5VnUQ[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQGRJN4Radk[/media]
Highly relevant right now. Proof of Russian citizens in Eastern Ukraine along with tactics the pro-russian militants used to try and subvert journalistic opinion.[/QUOTE]
Holy shit, Epic Chin Guy is chill as fuck about his capture. Also, those dudes ain't Russian military, just a couple awesome-ass cossack dudes.
[QUOTE=Monk37900;44693715]The worst part is, if Ukraine even tries to fight back they have a 99% chance of getting stormed by the Russian army.[/QUOTE]
The thing is, if Russia takes any more land in Ukraine then the West will definitely respond in every way they can except for military action. Blanket sanctions, more freezes on entire groups, maybe even cut-off of diplomatic ties. Russia might think it has Europe by the balls with its gas exports, but they cannot afford to isolate themselves economically and politically like North Korea can.
Title is misleading, should be "Russia wins East".
There are two reasons the Ukrainian military is not intervening. A.) They fear civilian casaulties, and B.) They REALLY fear that Russia will come through on all the threatening behaviour off their Eastern Border.
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