The jobs Trump promised to "get back"? They no longer exist. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=MissingNoGuy;51345354]In what way? I can't think of a few good things it did for my family or friends. In fact, a lot of manufacturing jobs in my state were lost because of it. And it's not just that. Even if NAFTA was abolished, it wouldn't do anything because of the availability of cheap labor.[/QUOTE] Nafta bolstered the Canada US trade relationship. I just don't understand this desire to shut globalism down, and lock ourselves to our own little landlocked nations like it's the fucking 1700's anymore. Trade is always going to be global from now on, as long as there is a demand and a capacity for it, it'll be there, and while americans and canadians can bitch to the moon about how NAFTA fucked them over, it gave them cheaper goods at the same time. We really can't just say without NAFTA or trade agreements like this everything would be hunky dory and no one state wide loses their jobs, that's just not something anyone knows or can know. [editline]9th November 2016[/editline] Manufacturing jobs aren't always going to be around, you require a stagnant, innovationless form of capitalism to ensure no jobs are ever lost to improvements in the process. Cars used to be hand made, singularly designed devices. Then the manufacturing line came about, and that was no longer the case, and lots of people lost their jobs. Should that have been stopped too?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51345370]Manufacturing jobs aren't always going to be around, you require a stagnant, innovationless form of capitalism to ensure no jobs are ever lost to improvements in the process. Cars used to be hand made, singularly designed devices. Then the manufacturing line came about, and that was no longer the case, and lots of people lost their jobs. Should that have been stopped too?[/QUOTE]Not at all, those are completely two different things. Technological advancement will always be a thing to replace humans, there's nothing we can do about that once the ball is rolling. What I'm saying is there needs to be a way to oppose something like a trade agreement. Not everyone wants it, and sometimes it's a huge amount that don't want it. It should have a right to be voted on by citizens, and not behind closed doors. Maybe that won't ever be a thing, and I have to accept that. Not trying to be hostile.

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51345088]The whole "UBI will increase costs!!" sounds a lot like "Minimum wage will increase costs!!" Isn't one counter argument for the latter that with more people having more money available they'll be able to spend more and thus businesses make more money? Especially since we have so many different welfare programs suppose to fight poverty and their doing a pretty shit job at it. There is no need to gut these programs, but maybe try consolidating them.[/QUOTE] Well yeah, consolidation would probably be a good idea. A UBI with supplements for healthcare and other things like a clean energy supplement would be a good idea I don't trust the market not to inflate prices to compensate for a UBI. But it does sound like the minimum wage argument to me now that you mention it. [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51345291]I wasn't assuming you were attacking me, I just thought you were including me in that "people" and responded accordingly; it's not a big deal. I think the market will respond appropriately but even in the event that prices increase the UBI should be flexible to meet minimum living standards, we could actually do away with minimum wage (a strong selling point for the system) but use the UBI to follow the price of necessities and shift accordingly. Hiking the price of, oh, shoes would cause a hike in UBI payout accordingly. Unless literally everyone wants an insanely devalued currency then I don't see it getting out of hand. Combined with initiatives for the promotion of small businesses it could actually make the market hyper-competitive, [I]any[/I] fluctuation in price might cause the loss of a customer base almost overnight since the competition just appeared out of nowhere. Zoning laws might get in the way but I think with a change in how we view drones legally, we might be able to shift to delivery-only home businesses founded by people entirely on the UBI or with a job for supplemental income. I think if there ever was an environment for the invisible hand to keep people in check, it's that, and we [I]could[/I] have it and the social services so people can feel comfortable taking those risks. [editline]9th November 2016[/editline] Yes, this is probably a much better way to go rather than downsizing and seeing which ones to cut. Keeping people safe from tumbling into homelessness and complete financial ruin is the best way to have a capitalistic market, they'll take risks and are willing to vote with their wallet more often than not when they're not struggling financially.[/QUOTE] I take your point that the UBI could inflate accordingly. In that case it seems like the way to go

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51345338]NAFTA was good for my country and yours[/QUOTE] That's a very subjective blanket statement. I had some family that went bankrupt when zucchini was starting to be imported. According to them the price for a foreign box of zucchini was only about half of what they'd spend on their own box not including the labor to pack it. How'd that do them any favors? Sure things might be cheaper on the whole but in the end were far more reliant on imports and in some cases it's just not profitable for small domestic farmers and the like to try and compete unless you grow heirloom or niche crop. Not trying to antagonize or anything, but saying NAFTA was a good move on the whole is short sighted in my opinion.

[QUOTE=Vasili;51345322]It got drowned out in the constant: "you're stupid, racist, sexist, homophobic, bad, ignorant and monster" rhetoric that was spammed here and over the last year.[/QUOTE] Here we were just telling it like it is like that liar Trump, but most Trump supporters never even accepted we could be right about it, nor did they even have a basic level of awareness that maybe he was just lying to get votes and totally wasnt going to fuck them over as well as the democrat and independent supporters. Look no closer than his cabinet for proof that he didnt care one bit about what was going to happen to his vote bank, or that they could make it worse for everybody and not just the damn liberals. He selected a SecDef who's the same kind of war hawk that he made Crooked Illary out to be, His secretary of agriculture is a moron who bankrupted Kansas, and his Energy secretary is a man who like Drumpf denies climate change. What does this say about what's going to happen in the near future? The only responses we kept getting when trying to engage Trumpsters in rational discussion, and I've done it often enough in my time in SH, was 'b-but crooked $hillary' with little more beyond it or WHY Donald Trump was just a better choice. They picked him because they were tired to shit with the system and didn't care if he might fuck them over, they were tired of being marginalized by the left and extreme left, and genuinely believed he might change things. Well, he's going to change things, alright, but not in a way they expected is going to happen

[QUOTE=Judas;51344692]is this really a sentance I just read[/QUOTE] It's a fairly stupid way to phrase it, but the truth is that mass-automation is inevitable. Eventually people will be relegated to the creative arts, and even then machines have shown an unprecedented knack in those areas as well. On top of that, artificial intelligence is advancing at an impressive rate in recent times, due to deep-learning algorithms, improvements in computer vision systems, progressively more and more powerful computing technologies, etc. Businesses care only about their bottom-line, and an automated workforce is a very attractive option to maintain maximum profit margins with minimal expenditure. We either accept that and adapt, or we'll all be left behind. [editline]9th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Zonesylvania;51345511]Here we were just telling it like it is like that liar Trump, but most Trump supporters never even accepted we could be right about it, nor did they even have a basic level of awareness that maybe he was just lying to get votes and totally wasnt going to fuck them over as well as the democrat and independent supporters. Look no closer than his cabinet for proof that he didnt care one bit about what was going to happen to his vote bank, or that they could make it worse for everybody and not just the damn liberals. He selected a SecDef who's the same kind of war hawk that he made Crooked Illary out to be, His secretary of agriculture is a moron who bankrupted Kansas, and his Energy secretary is a man who like Drumpf denies climate change. What does this say about what's going to happen in the near future? The only responses we kept getting when trying to engage Trumpsters in rational discussion, and I've done it often enough in my time in SH, was 'b-but crooked $hillary' with little more beyond it or WHY Donald Trump was just a better choice. They picked him because they were tired to shit with the system and didn't care if he might fuck them over, they were tired of being marginalized by the left and extreme left, and genuinely believed he might change things. Well, he's going to change things, alright, but not in a way they expected is going to happen[/QUOTE] And on top of that, Ben "the pyramids were grain silos" Carson was allegedly chosen as as the head of the Dept. of Education. (please tell me I'm wrong)

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51345329]I don't think I once called anyone racist, sexist, or homophobic but you do have to have some ignorance about how economics works to think that Trump is going to negotiate a better trade deal with China and suddenly manufacturing jobs will come back.[/QUOTE] The funniest part is the fact that there have been companies leaving China for a while because their economy has been overheating to fuck and costs are increasing.

I can't wait til I can't work anymore and everyone thinks they have something important to say. Fuck automation.

[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;51346029]You're not locked to one profession for your entire life, if automation eventually replaces you then it's time to learn something else. Fuck people who think automation is the end of the world, really[/QUOTE]Are you saying unemployment and homelessness are myths or is this a bootstraps reply? I'm really having a hard time figuring out which one to go with. [editline]I cannot believe I need to explain this[/editline] Like the mass elimination of most of the jobs in a country like the United States is [I]not a good thing under any circumstances.[/I] We have no widespread safety net that can catch and support that many workers, this is an objective fact.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51346055]Are you saying unemployment and homelessness are myths or is this a bootstraps reply? I'm really having a hard time figuring out which one to go with.[/QUOTE] No, just that it won't be the end of the world or that it needs to be thwarted. There are many ways to go around it, you can find a new job, there can be a basic income. It's a reply to "fuck automation." Let's not. It's essential to progress of the humanity. There's literally nothing wrong about automation.

[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;51346029]You're not locked to one profession for your entire life, if automation eventually replaces you then it's time to learn something else. Fuck people who think automation is the end of the world, really[/QUOTE]Not everyone can afford an education, nor do some have the time to invest into learning said thing. We should really stop limiting people's job choices.

[QUOTE=Drury;51346064]No, just that it won't be the end of the world or that it needs to be thwarted. There are many ways to go around it, you can find a new job, there can be a basic income. It's a reply to "fuck automation." Let's not. It's essential to progress of the humanity. There's literally nothing wrong about automation.[/QUOTE] But there is no basic income so that's kinda irrelevant saying that there can be, just because it can happen doesn't mean it will and as far as finding a new job it's not that easy if there is a mass elimination of jobs paying 50-80k a year you usually can't just fall into a job paying that much especially if you have been doing nothing but manufacturing for 15-25 years and are in your 40's with no college degree and no other experience other than that.

[QUOTE=MissingNoGuy;51346070]Not everyone can afford an education, nor do some have the time to invest into learning said thing. We should really stop limiting people's job choices.[/QUOTE] But going against automation for the sake of people keeping their shitty jobs that robots do much faster and cheaper is the wrong way about doing it.

[QUOTE=Drury;51346083]But going against automation for the sake of people keeping their shitty jobs that robots do much faster and cheaper is the wrong way about doing it.[/QUOTE]Then what's the right way? I'm confused.

[QUOTE=Swilly;51345981]I can't wait til I can't work anymore and everyone thinks they have something important to say. Fuck automation.[/QUOTE] Automation is an inevitability, it's sad actual human beings will lose jobs to machines but the fact that they are more efficient and cheaper than paying a person is something we have to accept. I won't say you'll be better off, this could end up putting a lot of people in tough situations, but I do think eventually automation will lead to a world we as a people may not even be required to work to survive. I don't think we should stifle the progress of humanity just so people get to keep their jobs, I'd rather the people working these jobs try to find alternatives for careers before they're phased out by new technologies.

[QUOTE=MissingNoGuy;51346070]Not everyone can afford an education, nor do some have the time to invest into learning said thing. We should really stop limiting people's job choices.[/QUOTE] We could put more effort into making education more affordable instead of just jerking off to the idea of bringing manufacturing jobs back from countries that do them significantly cheaper.

Surprise, you're both European. [QUOTE=Drury;51346064]No, just that it won't be the end of the world or that it needs to be thwarted. There are many ways to go around it, you can find a new job, there can be a basic income. It's a reply to "fuck automation." Let's not. It's essential to progress of the humanity. There's literally nothing wrong about automation.[/QUOTE]See this part of my post: [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51346055]Like the mass elimination of most of the jobs in a country like the United States is [I]not a good thing under any circumstances.[/I] We have no widespread safety net that can catch and support that many workers, this is an objective fact.[/QUOTE] There are things wrong with automation, it does not play well with our current society being the biggest one. Without a necessary restructuring of our society it is an objectively bad direction to go. If you're looking forward to a nation armed with nuclear weapons devolving into civil war sparked by several tens of millions of people out of work, starving, and desperate then sure, I bet it seems super awesome. Or did you not think of that?

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51346088]Without a necessary restructuring of our society it is an objectively bad direction to go. If you're looking forward to a nation armed with nuclear weapons devolving into civil war sparked by several tens of millions of people out of work, starving, and desperate then sure, I bet it seems super awesome. Or did you not think of that?[/QUOTE] And it is a necessary reordering of our society. The alternative is to shut the borders, ban trade with outside countries, or outright nuke any other industrial powers. Forced isolation and luddism to preserve an obsolete status quo and hold things back. We're going to be faced with the monster whether we like it or not. And likely during this next presidency or just after Trump skips off leaving us crippled. Nobody's been discussing it seriously. Nobody has a plan. We are pretty much doomed.

[QUOTE=MissingNoGuy;51346084]Then what's the right way?[/QUOTE] I said it before - there needs to be a basic income sooner or later. I can't think of any other option. Just tossing the working class under the bus is going to backfire miserably and limiting/banning robots for the sake of humans keeping their jobs is incredibly backwards and a short-term solution at best. It's as if we banned cars for the sake of keeping horses relevant.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51346088]There are things wrong with automation, it does not play well with our current society being the biggest one. Without a necessary restructuring of our society it is an objectively bad direction to go. If you're looking forward to a nation armed with nuclear weapons devolving into civil war sparked by several tens of millions of people out of work, starving, and desperate then sure, I bet it seems super awesome. Or did you not think of that?[/QUOTE] That really seems like an exceedingly sensationalist way to look at it. Manufacturing jobs make up less than 20% of the jobs in the US. Assuming automation is at least phased in at a decent rate and not just suddenly thrown in it's not unreasonable to assume most of those people or future employees could move to the service industry as time goes on. Also there is not even "several tens of millions of people" that would be displaced by automation. Only about 12 million people work in manufacturing. [url]http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_201.htm[/url] [url]http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t17.htm[/url]

[QUOTE=Grimhound;51346095]And it is a necessary reordering of our society. The alternative is to shut the borders, ban trade with outside countries, or outright nuke any other industrial powers. Forced isolation and luddism to preserve an obsolete status quo and hold things back.[/QUOTE]We already do things to preserve an obsolete status quo [I]because there are tons of fucking jobs involved and if you did otherwise it would crash entire economies.[/I] Why the fuck do you think the senate just up and ordered tanks we didn't need? To piss away money? No, it keeps the factories going and keeps hundreds of thousands of people working which in turn keeps them elected. A big chunk of the military's gigantic budget is subsidizing economies because there is literally no other option, if they don't the companies go under and the skills are lost and that's a direct threat to national defense. [QUOTE=Zang-Pog;51346096]People are going to have to adapt, imagine if people decided they don't want to have printing because it would take jobs from people writing books or if industrialisation never happened on the scale it did because people were afraid they'd be replaced by machines. We wouldn't be anywhere, now would we?[/QUOTE]"Wah wah people have to adapt because I read in class about luddites and I like sci-fi it's cool! Make it real!" People don't just [I]adapt[/I] because they will it to be so, there needs to be a method to make that change. Right now in this country actual able-bodied human adults die on the streets, some freeze to death, some starve, a lot get killed trying to hitch a ride on a train. Thing is a grain car isn't meant for people and if you want to see the end result of a man getting cut into fifteen to twenty pieces by the truck and bogies just ask. This happens right now. No automation displacing millions yet, it's a real thing in our current people-powered economy. What the [I]fuck[/I] do you think will happen when half the country has no jobs available?

[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;51346140]Why are you so angry and why are you putting words into my mouth?[/QUOTE]That's not anger, that's contempt. Why is that there? Let's examine: [QUOTE]If you think I'm going to care more about your opinions because you're throwing a sob story at me, you'd be wrong.[/QUOTE]Ow that edge! Negative fifteen respect immediately, negative ten for disregarding it as a mere opinion. [QUOTE]I'm aware the situation in the US isn't great and yes,[/QUOTE]This is like those, "I'm not racist, but," comments. I can feel it. [QUOTE]a lot of things need to change but to be so against automation is ridiculous in my eyes.[/QUOTE]I never once said I was against automation at all, negative twenty respect for that, but negative fifty for not reading the thread and seeing my other posts. [QUOTE]Does half of the country work jobs that automation can easily replace?[/QUOTE]See below, I touch up on that. [QUOTE]I'd like to see something more than just your word on it[/QUOTE]I'd say my connection is too slow and this $15 dollar shitty laptop is too crappy for that, but instead I'll go with: your reputation is too low for me to bother. Perform more quests for respect points, %PCName. [QUOTE=Anderan;51346103]it's not unreasonable to assume most of those people or future employees could move to the service industry as time goes on.[/QUOTE][QUOTE]Also there is not even "several tens of millions of people" that would be displaced by automation. Only about 12 million people work in manufacturing.[/QUOTE]I love how you just flippantly dismiss twelve million people like they're just assholes in the way of your flying car. [I]What[/I] jobs in the service industry? Largest pool is fast food workers and cashiers, I don't know if you've been keeping up with current events but McDonald's and Burger King are both looking for ways to replace most of their employees. Millions gone off the bat. Well what about cashi-- oh wait [I]self fucking serve checkouts already exist.[/I] I don't see them going anywhere. What else? [B]Transportation[/B] drivers of all types will almost assuredly be completely replaced, gotta have those self-driving cars. [B]Shipping?[/B] Millions of jobs there, millions of jobs already replaced by automation. [B]Materials processing?[/B] Fuck that, turns out replacing workers that can get maimed and sue you is a priority for employers. [B]Mining?[/B] Already heavily automated and mostly outsourced because gotta have those cheap minerals [B]Recycling?[/B] Same thing with shipping, mining, and materials processing. Millions of jobs [I]on top[/I] of manufacturing. Do you want me to keep going?

we're gonna win, and we're gonna win, and we're gonna win, and we're gonna win, and we're gonna win, and we're gonna win, and we're gonna win, and we're gonna win, and [editline]10th November 2016[/editline] we're gonna blow the house down

[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;51346196]Stop disagreeing with meeeeee![/QUOTE]Since my poor little laptop breaks down at random if I browse too much, here are two sources I selected [I]just[/I] for you: [url]http://newsexaminer.net/food/mcdonalds-to-open-restaurant-run-by-robots/[/url] [url]http://www.supplychainbrain.com/content/blogs/think-tank/blog/article/how-robotics-process-automation-is-transforming-supply-chains/[/url] There, I backed up what I said. I mean you [I]could[/I] take a look yourself if you genuinely are interested in more information but I don't think you will. Feel free to prove me wrong though! Thing is economic experts are [i]probably[/i] going to agree with me because any job that involves manual labor that's repetitive and replicated by a robot easily and effectively is going to go. Data collection is already going, it's basically all automated now, and tech support is increasingly being pushed further and further away from human to human interactions and well into the digital realm. Fact is even the outsourced jobs we lost are being automated so this will affect [I]other countries[/I] too! Wow! Meanwhile in the United States people are already on the streets and you're saying I've got my head up my ass? Fucking please, this naive bullshit you're shoveling is just whimsical fantasy without understanding the hard reality of the problem while [I]willfully[/I] ignoring any attempt to set you straight. [editline]10th November 2016[/editline] Plus the idea that CDL holders will be able to just get out of their trucks and [I]work somewhere else[/I] is laughably stupid. They have zero applicable skills elsewhere, and no, you can't just take a guy who drives a truck or a taxi and stick him in a plane. They're essentially unskilled workers if they go anywhere else, so until they can just bootstrap their way into a degree the only option is minimum wage jobs that [I]won't exist anymore.[/I] [editline]10th November 2016[/editline] Oh and on top of [I]all of that[/I] I've made several posts precisely about this very subject. We need a Universal Basic Income specifically because we have [I]nothing[/I] to catch these millions of people when they fall. I don't expect the Republicans to hold up the existing welfare programs we do have which are clearly not enough to catch some of the people out there right now.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51346185]I love how you just flippantly dismiss twelve million people like they're just assholes in the way of your flying car. [/quote] Except that's not what I did at all. I even posted earlier about making education easier to acquire instead of just leaving them out in the cold. [quote][I]What[/I] jobs in the service industry? Largest pool is fast food workers and cashiers, I don't know if you've been keeping up with current events but McDonald's and Burger King are both looking for ways to replace most of their employees. Millions gone off the bat. Well what about cashi-- oh wait [I]self fucking serve checkouts already exist.[/I] I don't see them going anywhere. [/quote] Did you even look at the stats I posted? Retail is only the 4th largest employer in the service industry. 1st is Health and social care, 2nd is "Professional and business services", 3rd is state and local government, "leisure and hospitality" is a pretty close 5th behind retail. Self-checkout has been a thing for years and yet they aren't really replacing humans in a lot of stores because they do a shit job at preventing shoplifting and a number of people avoid using them because they dislike them. [quote] What else? [B]Transportation[/B] drivers of all types will almost assuredly be completely replaced, gotta have those self-driving cars. [B]Shipping?[/B] Millions of jobs there, millions of jobs already replaced by automation. [B]Materials processing?[/B] Fuck that, turns out replacing workers that can get maimed and sue you is a priority for employers. [B]Mining?[/B] Already heavily automated and mostly outsourced because gotta have those cheap minerals [B]Recycling?[/B] Same thing with shipping, mining, and materials processing. Millions of jobs [I]on top[/I] of manufacturing. Do you want me to keep going?[/QUOTE] Again, the services industry makes up literally 80% of jobs already. Even if all of these jobs were slowly phased out there's no reason to believe that more jobs wouldn't appear to replace them just like what has been happening for the last 100 years as the US has moved away from manufacturing. [editline]10th November 2016[/editline] I mean shit, agriculture and manufacturing made up over 40% of jobs in 1940 yet as automation began to increase we didn't suddenly have 40% of the population homeless out in the streets. New jobs appeared, other industries grew and hired more people. [editline]10th November 2016[/editline] Hell, automation increasing doesn't even necessarily mean all human jobs will vanish. There's still quite a few farms that hire workers to harvest shit by hand despite machine harvesters existing. It's a very small portion of jobs, but still.

[QUOTE=Anderan;51346303]Except that's not what I did at all. I even posted earlier about making education easier to acquire instead of just leaving them out in the cold.[/QUOTE]Except that's not going to happen, it's right up there with UBI in the "shit we need but won't get" category. You kind of did too, because even with education being easier to acquire doesn't mean they'll actually [I]gain[/I] an education. Are we just supposed to take the smart people and tell the dumb ones to get fucked? [QUOTE]Did you even look at the stats I posted? Retail is only the 4th largest employer in the service industry.. 1st is Health and social care, 2nd is "Professional and business services", 3rd is state and local government, "leisure and hospitality" is a pretty close 5th behind retail.[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, that's my fault. I should have been clear and said [I]available[/I] job pool, displaced factory workers aren't going to become nurses. [QUOTE]Self-checkout has been a thing for years and yet they aren't really replacing humans in a lot of stores because they do a shit job at preventing shoplifting and a number of people avoid using them because they dislike them.[/QUOTE]If they weren't a viable technology companies would get rid of them, so clearly they're [I]just[/I] useful enough to be worth it. You can say, "well they've been around for years!" all you want but that doesn't address the fact that they exist and are in active use. [QUOTE]Again, the services industry makes up literally 80% of jobs already.[/QUOTE]You're so focused on robotics like it's the only automation here, like a few KUKAs here and there is all that's going to happen.[QUOTE]Even if all of these jobs were slowly phased out there's no reason to believe that more jobs wouldn't appear to replace them just like what has been happening for the last 100 years as the US has moved away from manufacturing.[/QUOTE][I]Except that we don't live in a fucking fairy tale and one of the biggest fucking talking points in this election was job growth in this country. Growth that's been abysmally small for [B]decades[/B] by the way.[/I] Oh, and this whole thread is [I]precisely[/I] about how the jobs Trump promised to bring back don't even exist anymore. [QUOTE]I mean shit, agriculture and manufacturing made up over 40% of jobs in 1940 yet as automation began to increase we didn't suddenly have 40% of the population homeless out in the streets. New jobs appeared, other industries grew and hired more people.[/QUOTE]Slowly increased, and it was an entirely different economic landscape which is a point people constantly forget. Oh, and the automation wasn't the removal of jobs, it was the shifting of jobs, that's what you're not fucking getting here; the job is [B]gone.[/B] Poof! Disappeared, there isn't another somewhere else to replace it, forever lost into the machine that took over. We're past the age where a new machine on the factory floor meant the company expanded the line and stretched the work force along it, that went away in the 90's so stop referencing the 1940's. [QUOTE]Hell, automation increasing doesn't even necessarily mean all human jobs will vanish. There's still quite a few farms that hire workers to harvest shit by hand despite machine harvesters existing.[/QUOTE]Woah there. I have experience with factories and railroads, but I grew up on a farm and because of that I'm going to halt you here. Full stop. Pump them brakes, buddy, because the point you're trying to make doesn't work. Those workers are [I]seasonal[/I] and in certain cases just there because the farm is too small to justify using a machine. You can't take millions of displaced workers and make them pick strawberries and call it good, available arable land is shrinking and there hasn't ever been a need for workers in agriculture. I realize it's just an example you've put up but it's a bad one, and an indication to me that you really haven't thought about all the niggling little details of this problem. We're already holding the economy together with duct tape and chewing gum, throwing money all over the place and keeping outdated methods in place because the jobs need to stay filled. Shit is [I]already[/I] fucked up, automation is going to make it worse and eventually that festering situation [I]will[/I] erupt into something far, far worse.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51346417]Except that's not going to happen, it's right up there with UBI in the "shit we need but won't get" category. You kind of did too, because even with education being easier to acquire doesn't mean they'll actually [I]gain[/I] an education. Are we just supposed to take the smart people and tell the dumb ones to get fucked?[/quote] We're not going to just suddenly stop increasing automation either so may as well at least advocate the method that would not only help those people but anyone else wanting an education. I can't really provide an answer on how to help "the dumb ones" but as I said earlier new jobs appear all the time so how knows. [quote]I'm sorry, that's my fault. I should have been clear and said [I]available[/I] job pool, displaced factory workers aren't going to become nurses.[/quote] Which is why I said if the automation happens at a reasonable pace. I'm not expecting a line worker to go out and be a businessman tomorrow. [quote]If they weren't a viable technology companies would get rid of them, so clearly they're [I]just[/I] useful enough to be worth it. You can say, "well they've been around for years!" all you want but that doesn't address the fact that they exist and are in active use.[/quote] I wasn't denying that they exist and are in use. But despite their use all cashier jobs haven't suddenly up and vanished. Even if companies only begrudgingly still have them the jobs are still there. [quote]You're so focused on robotics like it's the only automation here, like a few KUKAs here and there is all that's going to happen.[I]Except that we don't live in a fucking fairy tale and one of the biggest fucking talking points in this election was job growth in this country. Growth that's been abysmally small for [B]decades[/B] by the way.[/I] [/quote] And you apparently live in a cyberpunk dystopia where automation is replacing jobs left right and center faster than jobs can grow despite most sectors showing (admittedly slow) growth with unemployment decreasing. [quote]Oh, and this whole thread is [I]precisely[/I] about how the jobs Trump promised to bring back don't even exist anymore.[/quote] Yet people started arguing that automation was going to cause "tens of millions of people" to be out of work and this discussion sorta stems from that. [quote] Slowly increased, and it was an entirely different economic landscape which is a point people constantly forget. Oh, and the automation wasn't the removal of jobs, it was the shifting of jobs, that's what you're not fucking getting here; the job is [B]gone.[/B] Poof! Disappeared, there isn't another somewhere else to replace it, forever lost into the machine that took over. We're past the age where a new machine on the factory floor meant the company expanded the line and stretched the work force along it, that went away in the 90's so stop referencing the 1940's.[/quote] Machines replaced a shitload of people even before the 90s. Why have 10 people do a job when you can just hire one guy on a machine? Even with increased automation you still need people to maintain the machines, design them, market them, ect. [quote]Woah there. I have experience with factories and railroads, but I grew up on a farm and because of that I'm going to halt you here. Full stop. Pump them brakes, buddy, because the point you're trying to make doesn't work. Those workers are [I]seasonal[/I] and in certain cases just there because the farm is too small to justify using a machine. You can't take millions of displaced workers and make them pick strawberries and call it good, available arable land is shrinking and there hasn't ever been a need for workers in agriculture. I realize it's just an example you've put up but it's a bad one, and an indication to me that you really haven't thought about all the niggling little details of this problem.[/QUOTE] See my edit, it added it almost immediately after I posted that because I knew without it what I said was bullshit. My family owns a farm and I grew up with it. [editline]10th November 2016[/editline] I just don't see any reason to support the assumption that we're going to suddenly have 20 million people unemployed all at once. Even assuming that every job automated over the last 25 years is not replaced and the worker was forced to find something else we still have had growth in jobs and unemployment has been more linked to economic downturns than increased automation. Mind you I'm not saying the worst possible outcome can't happen, I just don't see them happening as things are now.

You know, JJF, if you put this much effort into threatening politicians with force, we just might be able to make the world a better place. But I do say that you point is legitimate. There could be two outcomes: A civil one where government will rework the economy to one of more equal footing as well as under actual control of the country (such as through UI) or one of self-destructive capitalist tendencies (such as luddite rebellions). I'd say that both will in fact happen, to different industrialized countries. So yes, things will be shit (I mean, since yesterday, we just cemented it further), but there are ways for them to not be shit. [editline]10th November 2016[/editline] It's actually kinda sad, but it's in corporate best interests to go for A, rather than B. We'll be observing an interesting period of time in divisiveness of corporate economics: The more individualistic desires for maximum profit of the actual leaders of companies and a sort of survival instinct of the corporate development, where it realizes the danger of going in such direction. Anyway, enough 2-cent pseudo-economy from me, it's almost shitposting. JJF, you do need to chill, though.

What would corporations even have to gain by suddenly rendering a quarter of the population unemployed? Cutting costs wouldn't mean much if nobody has any money to buy things.

[QUOTE=Anderan;51346547]What would corporations even have to gain by suddenly rendering a quarter of the population unemployed? Cutting costs wouldn't mean much if nobody has any money to buy things.[/QUOTE] It's a global market It's not too hard to find someone else to sell too