Jerry Seinfeld: Political Correctness Will Destroy Comedy
658 replies, posted
[QUOTE=catbarf;47917323]
And besides, as I said on the last page 'SJW' seems to almost always be used in the form of a [url=http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/03/all-in-all-another-brick-in-the-motte/]motte and bailey[/url] argument:
[/QUOTE]
that websites sick.
[url]http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweapons/[/url]
this basically sweeps the rug under all those people that say silly shit like, "radical feminism want to neuter all men and censor all our videogames"
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;47917184]Not really, no, because while "rapist" is almost never used against prudes, SJW is still being used against tons of people with widely different views[/QUOTE]
Why is this a bad thing? The word "liberal" encompasses an entire left-hand spectrum of politics, and not all liberals are the same.
Are words bad, or are people who articulate themselves bad? Getting rid of words will always be stupid, imo.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;47918386]Why is this a bad thing? The word "liberal" encompasses an entire left-hand spectrum of politics, and not all liberals are the same.
Are words bad, or are people who articulate themselves bad? Getting rid of words will always be stupid, imo.[/QUOTE]
But then again, people identify themselves as liberals because unlike SJW it's not derogatory. I'm not saying get rid of the word, I'm saying try to confront whoever you disagree with maturely instead of resorting to petty insults and blanket statements
[QUOTE=s0beit;47916988]you're either legitimately unaware that there exists an insane, extremist element attempting to steer society toward padded corners in which case I feel sorry for you[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'm the one deserving pity in this situation.
SJW is such a retarded fucking term. I've never heard it used when people [I]weren't[/I] using it as a total copout
[QUOTE=Monkah;47916292]Why does it matter whether or not if 'SJW' has an exact definition? I can call someone left wing, right wing, communist, feminist-- all being words used to describe someone with a particular set of beliefs.[/QUOTE]
Because... I guess I failed to make this 100% clear last time... without an exact definition all you're doing is stroking each-other's egos and regurgitating rhetoric; incomprehensible to people outside of your argot.
I'm saying no-one knows what the fuck you're talking about because it's steeped in so much miss-directive language. I just quoted a post which noted the existence of an " insane, extremist element attempting to steer society toward padded corners."
Do you know what that means? I sure as hell do not, even in the context of this thread which consists of people airing out things on Twitter and Facebook with no real thought.
[editline]9th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=catbarf;47917323]The unspoken definition of SJW that's been used for most of the thread seems to be little more than 'socially-minded activist college students', but when challenged on the idea that those people are destroying free speech, Facepunchers give a more reasonable, unassailable, specific definition- and one which also happens to not support the argument that these SJWs are legion and they're ruining everything, because now the definition no longer applies to the people it was being levied against.[/QUOTE]
Thankfully at least one poster knows what I'm talking about.
No one agrees on the established definition but there are some things that will almost unanimously get you considered an SJW by anyone willing to use the term. One example of such would be claiming that it's impossible to be racist against white people or sexist against men.
Even though the line for SJW is blurry this "established minimum" justifies the term's existence in my opinion. Even if there's no concrete established definition and the word is still often abused, it has enough of a definition to justify its use, especially because we lack any better alternatives.
People also have a really hard time describing it because they go with a much more specific and extreme definition than what they would actually use the word for. The term is basically shorthand for "social left wing extremists". The term "extremist" has all of the exact same problems SJW has, but that doesn't mean the word shouldn't ever be used.
Sorry dudes, but historically there hasn't been widespread legislation or systematic discrimination against white people or men. We got defacto segregation going on in my city, and there are plenty of parts in the United States where women don't have full reproductive rights. Claiming that isn't being a "SJW," it's agreeing with over fifty years of inquiry into historical racism. It's not controversial, nor does it mean anyone is justified when they're being corny/rude by calling you mayonnaise-skinned or whatever.
When we talk about racism it has to be in a productive context. If you go hunting on milkandcookie's tumblr for evidence of white racism then that's good on you, but the discrimination in my town against people with dark skin won't disappear when you delete a micro-blogging site.
Have some perspective.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47918773]Sorry dudes, but historically there hasn't been widespread legislation or systematic discrimination against white people or men. We got defacto segregation going on in my city, and there are plenty of parts in the United States where women don't have full reproductive rights. Claiming that isn't being a "SJW," it's agreeing with over fifty years of inquiry into historical racism. It's not controversial, nor does it mean anyone is justified when they're being corny/rude by calling you mayonnaise-skinned or whatever.
When we talk about racism it has to be in a productive context. If you go hunting on milkandcookie's tumblr for evidence of white racism then that's good on you, but the discrimination in my town against people with dark skin won't disappear when you delete a micro-blogging site.
Have some perspective.[/QUOTE]
Saying "it's impossible to be racist against white people / sexist against men" is not the same thing as saying "Institutional racism against whites / institutional sexism against men doesn't exist in the western world."
Even if someone said "racism against whites / sexism against men doesn't exist" I'll give them the benefit of the doubt if they clarify. But if someone straight up says "it's impossible for an individual to be racist against whites or sexist against men because they aren't oppressed systematically," I'm calling bullshit.
What do you think people mean syntactically when they say "its impossible for an individual to be racist against whites?" I think "calling bullshit" is just very convenient because it means you can go for a very surface reading of what someone is saying.
Like think about it in terms of context, do you really think they're saying "no-one white ever has a racist slur uttered against them?" Not only is that obviously not true, it's also meaningless as a statement. What can you even call a white person which categorically demeans their entire existence as a white American? If we were in England, I'd say there's a whole group of slurs against Irish people which invokes centuries of oppression, but not in the United States. WASP? That's only recently a pejorative. Cracker? Been used in the earlier 20th century as a positive term. I'd say the vast majority of slurs I know of that refer to white people are Southern in origin, which means its implicit with class connotations and probably started with Northerners.
Are they saying it's ontologically impossible? It doesn't make any sense, and then what is the point of even discussing it? You acknowledge that people say bad things about white person, and then what?
[QUOTE=thisispain;47918870]What do you think people mean syntactically when they say "its impossible for an individual to be racist against whites?" I think "calling bullshit" is just very convenient because it means you can go for a very surface reading of what someone is saying.
Like think about it in terms of context, do you really think they're saying "no-one white ever has a racist slur uttered against them?" Not only is that obviously not true, it's also meaningless as a statement. What can you even call a white person which categorically demeans their entire existence as a white American? If we were in England, I'd say there's a whole group of slurs against Irish people which invokes centuries of oppression, but not in the United States. WASP? That's only recently a pejorative. Cracker? Been used in the earlier 20th century as a positive term.
Are they saying it's ontologically impossible? It doesn't make any sense, and then what is the point of even discussing it? You acknowledge that people say bad things about white person, and then what?[/QUOTE]
What makes you think that when I talk about "people being racist against white people" I'm talking about racial slurs? There are people who have been killed for being white and in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Are you saying there aren't people that believe that minorities can't be racist and women can't be sexist?
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47918907]What makes you think that when I talk about "people being racist against white people" I'm talking about racial slurs? There are people who have been killed for being white and in the wrong place at the wrong time.[/QUOTE]
there are people who have been killed for wearing the wrong colour shirt in the wrong place.
are the killers shirtest? or are there deeper socio-economic factors?
thisispain is talking about systemic racism versues individuals being prejudiced.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;47918927]there are people who have been killed for wearing the wrong colour shirt in the wrong place.
are the killers shirtest? or are there deeper socio-economic factors?[/QUOTE]
Are you claiming that killing someone because they're white isn't racist or is this a red herring argument?
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47918934]Are you claiming that killing someone because they're white isn't racist or is this a red herring argument?[/QUOTE]
personally i would say it's racist. but there are more types and definitions of racism than simply disliking someone because they are of a certain race.
racism against minorities is significantly more prevalent than racism against white people in western society. especially if you look at the history of the government trying to opress non-white people. for example the CIA and FBI trying to undermine black rights activists.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;47918927]there are people who have been killed for wearing the wrong colour shirt in the wrong place.
are the killers shirtest? or are there deeper socio-economic factors?
thisispain is talking about systemic racism versues individuals being prejudiced.[/QUOTE]
and the point Helixsnake is making is that discrimination based on race or any other arbitrary personal characteristic is bad, no matter what race is being discriminated against
the simplest and most agreeable of statements twisted into a logistical nightmare by completely unnecessary semantics
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;47918927]thisispain is talking about systemic racism versues individuals being prejudiced.[/QUOTE]
I think I made it pretty clear that I was talking about people talking about individuals being prejudiced and I even clarified that I was fine with people saying that systemic racism against whites doesn't exist. I even worded the other statement in question (about people that claim that minority individuals can't be racist, or that an individual can't be racist against a majority group or prejudiced against a group with systemic power) as carefully as possible to avoid confusion.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47918907]What makes you think that when I talk about "people being racist against white people" I'm talking about racial slurs? There are people who have been killed for being white and in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Are you saying there aren't people that believe that minorities can't be racist and women can't be sexist?[/QUOTE]
What I'm saying, what I have already said, is that distilling it to such levels is meaningless and only serves to call someone an "SJW."
Like what, "SJW's" think no white people get killed? What is the meaning of that? Who kills white people for being white? What are the socio-economic factors which account for that? Is it possible the murder of white Americans is the result of systematic discrimination?
[editline]9th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;47918967]
the simplest and most agreeable of statements twisted into a logistical nightmare by completely unnecessary semantics[/QUOTE]
I apologize deeply for believing that a statement needs to have more meaning than simply being a bromide we should all agree with.
Discrimination itself is a long-standing word with no definition. A lot of people don't think certain things are discrimination, just as they think affirmative action is discrimination.
Semantics is one of the most important parts of a language in use; to dismiss is to (as is my thesis) simply stroke your ego and get off on calling people "SJW's" on the internet.
I believe most of the general ideas that SJW's have explained. There's real oppression and overlooking that causes damage for people's lives. I don't have a problem with the basic tennents most of these people follow, however the problem is when it turns into it's own form of hatred for people, and turns into a way to be morally superior.
Just because I disagree with the extreme nature of SJW's doesn't mean I disagree with their stance on racism. That's silly.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47919056]What I'm saying, what I have already said, is that distilling it to such levels is meaningless and only serves to call someone an "SJW."
Like what, "SJW's" think no white people get killed? What is the meaning of that? Who kills white people for being white? What are the socio-economic factors which account for that? Is it possible the murder of white Americans is the result of systematic discrimination?[/QUOTE]
I think the problem is that you underestimate the potential for stupidity in people. Someone who thinks that minorities can't be racist or that you can't be sexist against men doesn't put as much thought into it as you are. And rest assured, these people do exist. I'm setting the bar for what unanimously qualifies someone as a "SJW" (among people willing to use the term) extremely high here.
Like I said earlier, all of the complaints brought up against the term "SJW" can also be brought up against "____ extremist." But I haven't seen people argue against using the word extremist.
My friend literally told me that it is impossible for anyone to be racist against white people, and that reverse racism doesn't exist.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;47919088]My friend literally told me that it is impossible for anyone to be racist against white people, and that reverse racism doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]
You're friend is probably correct, using his own definitions.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47919056]What I'm saying, what I have already said, is that distilling it to such levels is meaningless and only serves to call someone an "SJW."
Like what, "SJW's" think no white people get killed? What is the meaning of that? Who kills white people for being white? What are the socio-economic factors which account for that? Is it possible the murder of white Americans is the result of systematic discrimination?[/QUOTE]
do you really not understand what he's trying to say or do you just really like discussing the particulars of language
like are you just trying to point out why theoretically someone might not understand him or do you really not get it
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;47919110]do you really not understand what he's trying to say or do you just really like discussing the particulars of language
like are you just trying to point out why theoretically someone might not understand him or do you really not get it[/QUOTE]
He's been arguing that he personally doesn't get it.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;47919110]do you really not understand what he's trying to say or do you just really like discussing the particulars of language
like are you just trying to point out why theoretically someone might not understand him or do you really not get it[/QUOTE]
He pretty much said earlier in the thread that he was studying semantics for college.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47919084]I think the problem is that you underestimate the potential for stupidity in people. Someone who thinks that minorities can't be racist or that you can't be sexist against men doesn't put as much thought into it as you are.[/QUOTE]
Well they mimic the language of people who do put that much thought into things. That's how a word such as privilege, something which has been a part of societal and law studies for decades, ends up being an internet meme.
It's also intellectually lazy to assume the other person is stupid and saying the most obvious thing. Why even bother if you think the other person sucks... actually, I do know why and that goes back to the fact that "SJW" is part of an argot which creates an online social group, but that's something different.
[editline]9th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=wauterboi;47919088]My friend literally told me that it is impossible for anyone to be racist against white people, and that reverse racism doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]
Your friend and you have communication problems.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47919084]I think the problem is that you underestimate the potential for stupidity in people. Someone who thinks that minorities can't be racist or that you can't be sexist against men doesn't put as much thought into it as you are. And rest assured, these people do exist. I'm setting the bar for what unanimously qualifies someone as a "SJW" (among people willing to use the term) extremely high here.
Like I said earlier, all of the complaints brought up against the term "SJW" can also be brought up against "____ extremist." But I haven't seen people argue against using the word extremist.[/QUOTE]
the word extremist is stupid. same as radical.
they're words that are only useful when describing gnarly skateboard tricks.
a lot of the time, 'racist' pocs are so due to their experiences and cultural history of being shat on by white people and white driven institutions. same with 'sexist' women who are anti-men.
like is the hatred of the master towards the slave the same as the hatred of the slave towards the master??
both, in a black and white frame of reference are bad, but i think it's pretty stupid and disregarding of the real problems to say "ah but blacks can be racist too" like ok? the abused can abuse.
[QUOTE=DuCT;47919120]He pretty much said earlier in the thread that he was studying semantics for college.[/QUOTE]
Linguistics, specifically. Semantics is part of linguistics. My professor said I was the most pedantic bastard-child she'd ever seen so she wrote me a letter of recommendation.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;47919088]My friend literally told me that it is impossible for anyone to be racist against white people, and that reverse racism doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]
stop crying about your friend who got eaten by feminism it's weird
[QUOTE=wauterboi;47919088]My friend literally told me that it is impossible for anyone to be racist against white people, and that reverse racism doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]
obviously in places where white people aren't the majority (ie china, japan) there can be systemic racism against white people.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;47919110]do you really not understand what he's trying to say or do you just really like discussing the particulars of language
like are you just trying to point out why theoretically someone might not understand him or do you really not get it[/QUOTE]
It could be all of the above. I'm learning more and more about "SJW" speak.
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