• Millions sign petition urging Electoral College to elect Hillary Clinton
    312 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Guriosity;51365172]:words:[/QUOTE] I'm so confused as to what you're actually trying to say because nothing you're saying makes any sense.
[QUOTE=gk99;51365237]I'm so confused as to what you're actually trying to say because nothing you're saying makes any sense.[/QUOTE] Ok here is the shorter version [QUOTE]"Liberals are strangely unliberating lately. Being called names is something I'd expect from the right, not the supposed progressives. Of course people will be upset when you force your morals upon them. Yes, conservatives have always been "bad" but that doesn't mean their opposition should be bad too. The whole point of left is to be opposite of right, not a different flavor of it. All the morons who love to call people racist/sexist/homophobic are seriously ruining progress.[QUOTE] which means bigotry is a behavioral trait that transcends ideology or what not. A viscous leftist idiot is the same as a viscous rightist idiot"[/QUOTE][/QUOTE [QUOTE]I would love to see your proof that the left is a harmful mindset to the self.[/QUOTE] The better question is prove to me it isn't and you are not in a cult. Ever seen the video of if google was a guy trying to argue with an anti vaxxer? Yeah, your ideals are designed to make it impossible to reach you. So you gotta prove to me your ideas are healthy and are not under the delusional thinking they are.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51360300][URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1541345&p=51358799&viewfull=1#post51358799"]Please dont say that[/URL] [/quote] Whether or not you believe it, we are more republic. The founding fathers identified it as a mix, scholars identify it as a republic, and intelligent politicians do as well. True democracy would be the mean fall of the country. [editline]13th November 2016[/editline] We fit pretty much fit all of plato's political theory. [editline]13th November 2016[/editline] The federal government is a republic, the state level could be considered a democracy.
[QUOTE=Guriosity;51365282]Ok here is the shorter version [QUOTE]"Liberals are strangely unliberating lately. Being called names is something I'd expect from the right, not the supposed progressives. Of course people will be upset when you force your morals upon them. Yes, conservatives have always been "bad" but that doesn't mean their opposition should be bad too. The whole point of left is to be opposite of right, not a different flavor of it. All the morons who love to call people racist/sexist/homophobic are seriously ruining progress.[/QUOTE The better question is prove to me it isn't and you are not in a cult. Ever seen the video of if google was a guy trying to argue with an anti vaxxer? Yeah, your ideals are designed to make it impossible to reach you. So you gotta prove to me your ideas are healthy and are not under the delusional thinking they are.[/QUOTE] I honestly don't have to prove anything to you though? You're the one coming out, and saying to me, and to everyone who holds any "Leftist" views, whatever the fuck that means, that they're bad. Now please, please try and turn this around on me as being a dirty fucking liberal asking for proof. You have made a generalized statement. You have made a generalized claim. [B]You[/B] need to back it up. I don't need to prove it wrong. I really hope you try and spin this as me requiring an unfair amount of discussion from you, but there is this thing called burden of proof and you made the claim, so you have to demonstrate it. But no, clearly, this is a problem for the left to deal with, and for the "right" to make large, nebulous, generalized claims about in order to do something "Productive". No, if we want to actually get "productive", it means you dropping your bullshit as much as it means me dropping mine. But we aren't there yet, and at this rate with how much gloating there is, we'll never be there.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51360300]Then the feds would legislate[/QUOTE] You must not understand how the electoral college works.
[QUOTE=Guriosity;51365282]Ok here is the shorter version "Liberals are strangely unliberating lately. Being called names is something I'd expect from the right, not the supposed progressives. Of course people will be upset when you force your morals upon them. Yes, conservatives have always been "bad" but that doesn't mean their opposition should be bad too. The whole point of left is to be opposite of right, not a different flavor of it. All the morons who love to call people racist/sexist/homophobic are seriously ruining progress. The better question is prove to me it isn't and you are not in a cult. Ever seen the video of if google was a guy trying to argue with an anti vaxxer? Yeah, your ideals are designed to make it impossible to reach you. So you gotta prove to me your ideas are healthy and are not under the delusional thinking they are.[/QUOTE] what the fuck is a burden of proof anyway lol
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51364790]It has been 4 days and people are still complaining their candidate lost. Please, grow up, and realize that this is how elections are run. If you do not like it, petition for the removal of the Electoral College so that 4 years from now, the election will be decided by popular vote or however the people of the USA want it to be decided. This is to both sides by the way, when Obama won republicans threw a shit fit, now that republicans won, democrats are throwing a shit fit.[/QUOTE] But they are realizing how elections work. They know that one of the reasons the electoral college is in place to prevent demagoguery and are telling them to use that power. It's like getting mad when people tell the EPA to pass a regulation
Can you imagine the Government looking at this and going "Wow, I guess we better put Hillary in cause so many people don't like Trump". Yeah, me neither
[QUOTE=Komodoh;51362974]I can think of a few walls that worked in the recent years. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_border_barrier[/url] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier[/url] [/quote] A Wall won't stop people from immigrating legally and then staying without renewing their documents. It won't stop the drug cartels from digging their tunnels. It won't stop someone from bringing a tall ladder and just going over it. Plus, you know, after winning the election, he [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1541373]started[/url] [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1541497]backpedaling[/url], so the wall (as advertised) isn't even gonna happen anyway. Fences have even more ways to get past them. [QUOTE=Komodoh;51362974] And yea, I really don't care about gay marriage. Sorry bud. [/QUOTE] Like I said, you would be singing a different tune if it was your rights under threat. [quote]In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist; And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist; And then they came for the Jews, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew; And then . . . they came for me[/quote]
[QUOTE=Jcw87;51365813]A Wall won't stop people from immigrating legally and then staying without renewing their documents. It won't stop the drug cartels from digging their tunnels. It won't stop someone from bringing a tall ladder and just going over it. Plus, you know, after winning the election, he [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1541373]started[/url] [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1541497]backpedaling[/url], so the wall (as advertised) isn't even gonna happen anyway. Fences have even more ways to get past them. Like I said, you would be singing a different tune if it was your rights under threat.[/QUOTE] Gee, it's almost like a wall also has people watching and patrolling it. You would have VERY simple minded to think they're just going to put up a wall and not have the already existing border protection agency not do anything with it. I read that article. All it says is about whether Mexico will pay for it and the timeliness it will be built. Frankly I don't care who pays for it and when it's built, just as long as it's built And yea, I don't care about gay marriage. It's the definition of a non-issue. Sorry, but not sorry at all. [QUOTE=MissZoey;51364824]How's a wall gonna stop the 40-50% of illegal immigrants who are people getting tourist visas and just staying after it expires?[/QUOTE] By your numbers, the fact that the wall will stop those 60%-50% of illegals coming through the border without visas is a pretty damn good reason to build it.
[QUOTE=Komodoh;51366039]Gee, it's almost like a wall also has people watching and patrolling it. You would have VERY simple minded to think they're just going to put up a wall and not have the already existing border protection agency not do anything with it. I read that article. All it says is about whether Mexico will pay for it and the timeliness it will be built. Frankly I don't care who pays for it and when it's built, just as long as it's built And yea, I don't care about gay marriage. It's the definition of a non-issue. Sorry, but not sorry at all.[/QUOTE] Good to know your world-view is "fuck you, I got mine." I'm sure if you were an American voter in 1964 interested in the policies of George Wallace you'd have said "I don't care about integration. It's the definition of a non-issue. Sorry, but not sorry at all." Also you should be concerned because the wall, maintenance, and active patrolling will be really expensive. Trump wants tax cuts IIRC, and doesn't have plans to seriously curtail our spending. Actually he wants to increase it in some ways like giving our military more money. Our interest rate is incredibly low, but our debt compared to GDP is 106% so if that explodes in size, debt won't stay cheap for long.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51366062]Good to know your world-view is "fuck you, I got mine." I'm sure if you were an American voter in 1964 interested in the policies of George Wallace you'd have said "I don't care about integration. It's the definition of a non-issue. Sorry, but not sorry at all." Also you should be concerned because the wall, maintenance, and active patrolling will be really expensive. Trump wants tax cuts IIRC, and doesn't have plans to seriously curtail our spending. Actually he wants to increase it in some ways like giving our military more money. Our interest rate is incredibly low, but our debt compared to GDP is 106% so if that explodes in size, debt won't stay cheap for long.[/QUOTE] All expenses worth it to keep the illegals out. I like how you keep putting different scenarios around me as if it would change my opinions about gay marriage. I [B]DO NOT[/B] and [B]WILL NOT[/B] ever care about gay "rights". It is, and always will be, a non issue.
[QUOTE=Komodoh;51366087]All expenses worth it to keep the illegals out. I like how you keep putting different scenarios around me as if it would change my opinions about gay marriage. I [B]DO NOT[/B] and [B]WILL NOT[/B] ever care about gay "rights". It is, and always will be, a non issue.[/QUOTE] How is human rights a non issue for you? I can understand not prioritizing it, but flat out going "Nah, i don't care" is pretty, well, ignorant.
[QUOTE=Komodoh;51366087]All expenses worth it to keep the illegals out. I like how you keep putting different scenarios around me as if it would change my opinions about gay marriage. I [B]DO NOT[/B] and [B]WILL NOT[/B] ever care about gay "rights". It is, and always will be, a non issue.[/QUOTE] Okay, I'm glad you admit you don't care about civil rights. You probably do take the side of the civil rights movements of that time, because reactionaries are very happy to take the progressive side of a dead issue. Also did illegals take your ice cream or something "All expenses worth it." How does illegal immigration have such a negative effect that it's worth bankrupting a goddamn country to stop.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51366113]Okay, I'm glad you admit you don't care about civil rights. You probably do take the side of the civil rights movements of that time, because reactionaries are very happy to take the progressive side of a dead issue. Also did illegals take your ice cream or something "All expenses worth it." How does illegal immigration have such a negative effect that it's worth bankrupting a goddamn country to stop.[/QUOTE] You really have to stop making assumptions about me. Every single post is assumption after assumption after assumption to try and paint me like i have inconsistent views. Try to make an argument without going the "WELL IF YOU WERE THIS..." route and maybe, just maybe, I'll give you a worth while reply. I'm a nationalist. I don't like when people come into my country and wave their previous nations flag. Plenty of other reasons too, but not worth the time to write them all out. Nor do I have to. Trump won, we're getting a [B]BIG BEAUTIFUL WALL[/B] on our southern border. Under budget, and ahead of schedule.
[QUOTE=Komodoh;51366139]You really have to stop making assumptions about me. Every single post is assumption after assumption after assumption to try and paint me like i have inconsistent views. Try to make an argument without going the "WELL IF YOU WERE THIS..." route and maybe, just maybe, I'll give you a worth while reply. I'm a nationalist. I don't like when people come into my country and wave their previous nations flag. Plenty of other reasons too, but not worth the time to write them all out. Nor do I have to. [B]Trump won, we're getting a [B]BIG BEAUTIFUL WALL[/B] on our southern border. Under budget, and ahead of schedule.[/B][/QUOTE] You're really not
[QUOTE=Komodoh;51366087]All expenses worth it to keep the illegals out. I like how you keep putting different scenarios around me as if it would change my opinions about gay marriage. I [B]DO NOT[/B] and [B]WILL NOT[/B] ever care about gay "rights". It is, and always will be, a non issue.[/QUOTE] You really signify the worst parts of Trump's movement. Ignorance, extreme egocentrism and bigotry. I can only hope that Trump disappoints you massively, because that can only mean good for the world.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51366151]You're really not[/QUOTE] Well shit, since you said it, it must be true.
[QUOTE=Komodoh;51366162]Well shit, since you said it, it must be true.[/QUOTE] This is the same logic you're using FOR it being built At least be consistent
[QUOTE=Komodoh;51366139]You really have to stop making assumptions about me. Every single post is assumption after assumption after assumption to try and paint me like i have inconsistent views. Try to make an argument without going the "WELL IF YOU WERE THIS..." route and maybe, just maybe, I'll give you a worth while reply. I'm a nationalist. I don't like when people come into my country and wave their previous nations flag. Plenty of other reasons too, but not worth the time to write them all out. Nor do I have to. Trump won, we're getting a [B]BIG BEAUTIFUL WALL[/B] on our southern border. Under budget, and ahead of schedule.[/QUOTE] Well you could dispel it by explaining why gay marriage is non-issue. You didn't really give any worthwhile replies to people who were much more respectful. If you don't want people to have fun by making weird assertions like I did maybe provide something to work with. And also it'd be nice if you were to provide some actual reasons besides you getting triggered. Why post if you aren't going to explain anything. You don't have to provide specific citations if you don't want to, if someone is interested in responding they'll hunt down numbers on their own. Also I'm sure. With a big door that they can come through legally and THEN wave their previous nations flag, like many already do.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51366167]This is the same logic you're using FOR it being built At least be consistent[/QUOTE] That makes no sense. Trump said the wall is being built even after his win. You said it's not. Call me crazy, but I'm going on the side with [B]The New President of The United States, Donald J Trump[/B]
[QUOTE=Komodoh;51366177]That makes no sense. Trump said the wall is being built even after his win. You said it's not. Call me crazy, but I'm going on the side with [B]The New President of The United States, Donald J Trump[/B][/QUOTE] Yeah, so the guys also said things that aren't coming to fruition you're literally cherry picking to get your way You not only said it would happen, but you said it would happen [B]under budget, ahead of schedule[/B] call me crazy, but that isn't happening either. I don't think you understand the logistics of the wall.
[QUOTE=Komodoh;51366139] I'm a nationalist. I don't like when people come into my country and wave their previous nations flag. Plenty of other reasons too, but not worth the time to write them all out. Nor do I have to. Trump won, we're getting a [B]BIG BEAUTIFUL WALL[/B] on our southern border. Under budget, and ahead of schedule.[/QUOTE] The wall isn't going to be under budget, what the hell are you smoking? The budget for it was $0 because "Mexico will pay for it", but Mexico isn't going to pay for it, which means we will, and it will be over $0. Plus, there's the ongoing cost of staffing the wall, which Trump has no plan to pay for. If you were to hire enough people to staff the wall and stop anyone from going through/above the wall, the country would break down from crippling debt. If you care so much about the country, then maybe you should start thinking about how the hell the country is gonna pay for [b]anything[/b] when Trump starts handing out tax breaks for corporations. The whole concept of Mexico paying for the wall is deeply flawed. Imagine for a moment, that Canada decided that they were going to build a wall, and they declared that they would make the USA pay for it. How bonkers does that sound? You can't force a foreign nation to pay for something that does nothing to benefit them. You would sooner start a war if you tried.
I really don't get the mindset that [B]wants[/B] the wall. Border security? Fuck yes. A wall? No. A wall is an object of permenance. It isn't meant to come down. It's meant to stay up. Guess what that means? Maintenance, and staffing, and repairs, and changes. Not just for 4-8 years of Trump. [B]Perpetually.[/B] Meaning that you as a "small government" right winger, are incurring the costs of the worlds [B]largest modern public works endeavor[/B] that in no way, shape, or form, pays for itself, generates income, or does anything productive. It is a wall, by definition, it simply stands there and exists. It doesn't do anything for the economy like several Billions dollars worth of roads would. It simply does nothing because it isn't a real solution. The majority of illegal immigrants who enter the US do so via legal flights into the states with legal papers, that expire. That's how the majority of the "illegals" enter the nation. Over stayed permits. By design the wall isn't going to fix that, help that, or slow that. Not to mention, you're talking about trying to thwart the Cartels with a wall, an inactive, unresponsive wall, that will stay where it is. A more reasonable, probable, and likely method to deal with the border is 24/7/365 Drone patrols of the border itself. It's infinitely more feasible, realistic, affordable, and most importantly, effective. A wall is an outdated solution and it's honestly shocking people cling to it like a blanket.
I wonder what'd happen if the electoral college does vote Clinton majority. They won't and Trump will still be the next president, but it'd be an interesting scenario. [sp]I signed it.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Komodoh;51366177]That makes no sense. Trump said the wall is being built even after his win. You said it's not. Call me crazy, but I'm going on the side with [B]The New President of The United States, Donald J Trump[/B][/QUOTE] Holy shit the cult persists. [QUOTE=Komodoh;51366087]All expenses worth it to keep the illegals out. I like how you keep putting different scenarios around me as if it would change my opinions about gay marriage. I [B]DO NOT[/B] and [B]WILL NOT[/B] ever care about gay "rights". It is, and always will be, a non issue.[/QUOTE] I know there's this big thing about how we are supposed to debate Trump supporters and not demean them, but I honestly don't see how to apply that kind of thinking to people like you. You aren't giving us anything to debate you with, you are just spouting rhetoric at best and actively trying to piss people off at worst. Why is there this expectation that we all have to be civil with you guys, when you get to put civil "rights" in scare quotes as if the notion of treating LGBT people like human beings is laughable?- and make outright dumb statements like how you would be happy to bankrupt your country just to spite "the illegals waving their flags!"? I thought illegal immigration was an economic issue, so if Trump's solution costs America more money than illegal immigration itself would- surely that shows it's a bad idea and other solutions need to be sought instead?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51366112]How is human rights a non issue for you? I can understand not prioritizing it, but flat out going "Nah, i don't care" is pretty, well, ignorant.[/QUOTE] Because it doesn't affect him. That's why he doesn't care. Just like a bunch of other narcissistic Americans (narcissists in general), until whatever you're doing starts to affect them and inconvenience their personal lives, they don't care. They don't think of anybody but themselves.
I highly advise that anyone who signed this read this Vox article, it explains why this is simply not going to happen: [url]http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/11/13588048/electoral-college-petition-clinton-trump[/url] [QUOTE]1) The Trump state electors are Republican Party stalwarts or activists chosen during state party deliberations — check out this excellent Politico feature [URL="http://www.politico.com/magazine/thepeoplewhopickthepresident/2016"]“The People Who Pick the President”[/URL] to see who some of them are. Almost always, the parties do a good enough job of vetting their respective electoral slates to ensure that they will indeed [B]loyally back their party’s presidential nominee.[/B] The Republican Party clearly ended up falling behind Trump, and any Republican elector who abandons him would be defying the will of not only their state’s voters but also the party generally. And while there actually are [URL="http://www.politico.com/magazine/thepeoplewhopickthepresident/2016/the-republican-trump-skeptics"]some Trump skeptics who are electors[/URL], they’ve pretty much [B]all said they’d affirm the results in their states.[/B] 2) Trump now looks likely to end up with 306 electors to Clinton’s 232. So it’s not as if one or two electors could make the difference. [B]Thirty-seven electors[/B] would have to desert Trump to deprive him of his majority. That’s a lot. 3) These electors wouldn’t just have to desert Trump. Simply depriving Trump of 270 votes without giving Clinton herself 270 would throw the election to the GOP-controlled House of Representatives, which is [B]certain to award the presidency to Trump[/B]. To prevent Trump’s election, they’d all have to affirmatively back Clinton. Keep in mind that hardly any of even Trump’s strongest critics in the GOP went so far as to actually endorse Hillary Clinton over him. Mitt Romney, Jeb Bush, John Kasich, Lindsey Graham, John McCain, and George W. Bush all refused to go so far, saying instead they’d vote for no one or write in somebody else. 4) Any large-scale defections from Trump would surely be disputed by his supporters in those states, who may well just send in a conflicting set of electoral votes. And [URL="http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/03/the-bizarre-130-year-old-law-that-could-determine-our-next-president-213645"]an 1887 law[/URL] holds that if states send in multiple conflicting sets of electoral college votes, Congress gets to vote on which ones to recognize. [B]The Republican-controlled Congress would obviously not go along with an attempt by electors to steal the presidency for Hillary Clinton.[/B] 5) [B]Hillary Clinton has conceded the election[/B] and recognized Donald Trump as the winner. There is [B]no sign that she would go along with or participate in this endeavor.[/B] 6) Most importantly, there are democratic norms. The broader reason we’ve only had nine faithless electors in the past 80 years or so, despite the enormous power they seem to have, is that it’s widely believed that [B]picking the president isn’t their job anymore[/B]. Their job is to [B]affirm the results in their states.[/B] [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]For 180 years or so, our system has interpreted the results of the state elections as the Electoral College results. The campaigns are waged based on this understanding of the rules. The electors themselves have been rubber stamps. The popular vote has been irrelevant. Degrading those norms as part of a [B]likely doomed[/B] effort to defeat Donald Trump is a bad idea. (For one, future rogue electors may not always vote the way you want — several historical rogue electors [URL="http://www.thegreenpapers.com/Hx/FaithlessElectors.html"]had racist motivations[/URL].) Furthermore, electors overturning Trump particularly would certainly cause a [B]constitutional crisis[/B], because there is no world in which the Republican Party — who, again, [B]control Congress[/B] — would accept Clinton taking the presidency in this way. (Likely, as mentioned above, they’d refuse to recognize the returns.) And furthermore, when this sort of thing happens elsewhere in the world, it often creates a [B]military crisis[/B]. (Hillary Clinton is [URL="http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/this-poll-of-the-us-military-has-gary-johnson-tied-with-donald-trump-in-the-race-for-president"]not very popular[/URL] among the military, so I’m [B]not sure liberals want to make that play[/B].)[/QUOTE] No amount of pressure from metropolitan liberals is going to make Republican electors fuck up their best result in a long time, especially when the Democratic Party is on the brink of civil war. Seriously; President, House, Senate... they're on top of the world and ain't coming down. Also, fun fact: the only electors who HAVE promised not to vote for their candidate are democratic ones, so if anything Hillary could loose electoral votes come December 19.:v:
[QUOTE=Komodoh;51366139] I'm a nationalist. I don't like when people come into my country and wave their previous nations flag.[/QUOTE] My family has been in the Americas for over 200 years but I'm gonna start waving a Dutch flag because this is the most petty shit.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51369697]My family has been in the Americas for over 200 years but I'm gonna start waving a Dutch flag because this is the most petty shit.[/QUOTE] I'll wave an Italian flag and hopefully get criticized for waving the Mexican flag
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