Male and Female brains wired differently, scans reveal. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;43052984]this has sfa to do with what I'm saying. I'm pointing out gender has a biological basis. To suggest it does not is to suggest that transgender individuals really were just confused people in need of seeing a shrink all along.[/QUOTE] Yes. Brain science is the undoing of Radical Feminists who think that trans* people are crazy. Good thing most of them don't actually think that though. The next step in feminism is determining what is socially determined and what is biologically determined. Extremists on both sides of the spectrum will probably be wrong.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;43052983]"it discourages women from even trying and encourages sexists to discriminate and generalize", you could've fooled me. but no, we wouldn't want facts to come in the way of feelings. all it takes is the smallest bit of logic to see the limitations of this study and realise that outliers are just as common as normal results, but even that's too hard to figure out and we need to soften it up even more. for all the hyperbole of gender apartheid, what do you think the gender ratio is in nursing, retail and HR? you think people realise that women are generally better in social skills while men get stuck with the heavy lifting? and the bigger question, if that's what they want then do you really care?[/QUOTE] oh please, I know It's SH but do you have to turn every little thing into an argument you're trying so hard to make what I said seem extreme and rope me in by "biting back" tell me when you want to have a discussion that isn't so snarky and I'll reply

[QUOTE=Juniez;43052920]well it just tells you that there's a difference at this moment - it doesn't tell you [I]why [/I]that difference is there. For all we know, it could be because of brain usage according to social norms, hormonal influences or a mix of a bunch of different things. Buuuuuut right now it'd be silly to automatically jump to YES ITS BECAUSE THEYRE WOMEN I guess there's a possibility of it being a purely genetic sex-based disposition....... but probably not[/QUOTE] didn't say much about genetic, what i did say was HORMONES. a good test if you're really into that, take some transgender people who started before entering puberty and had their birth gender hormones inhibited while taking supplements of their current gender hormones, see where they come up. a good test for the hypothesis that hormones are the primary influence in mental sexual dimorphism.

[QUOTE=Juniez;43052717]a possible suggestion might be that the brains are strengthening connections based on the conformed social roles/tasks instead of a genetic predisposition[/QUOTE] I'd say that it's more about hormones kicking in.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;43053004]oh please, I know It's SH but do you have to turn every little thing into an argument you're trying so hard to make what I said seem extreme and rope me in by "biting back" tell me when you want to have a discussion that isn't so snarky and I'll reply[/QUOTE] in a discussion purely with text you miss a lot of subtle clues so forgive me if you weren't actually after a rebuttal. if your only complaint though is my tone then feel free to bow out and maybe join a debate club where you're protected from people being snarky. [QUOTE=Vodkavia;43053009]Outliers being just as common as normal results seems sort of, self defeating.[/QUOTE] i realised that while writing but you know, hyperbole. the fact remains that this kind of result only shows averages and while it may be useful for educated guesses, it's not a rule and can easily be defeated at the individual level. if someone finds they are an outlier, it's obvious that this study is meaningless to that individual.

[QUOTE=Juniez;43052717]a possible suggestion might be that the brains are strengthening connections based on the conformed social roles/tasks instead of a genetic predisposition[/QUOTE] From memory the part of the male brain responsible for spacial awareness is genetically designed (not as a result of sociological interaction throughout life) to be larger than that of a female brain, and in a female's brain the parts linked to emotion (empathy related emotion specifically) are more developed. The idea is that, as the hunters of the tribe in the distant past, it was mostly the males who had good spatial awareness who would be able to leave the tribe to hunt and then actually return in one piece. Females on the other hand would remain at the camp, look after the young, etc, and as such there was a lot of socialisation going on so those females who had better emotional connections with other members of the tribe, their young, etc benefited most. Men and women are certainly different. That doesn't make one sex better than the other by any means, but acknowledging our differences would go a long way to making our own lives a LOT easy and a LOT less stressful. [editline]3rd December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Devodiere;43053066]i realised that while writing but you know, hyperbole. the fact remains that this kind of result only shows averages and while it may be useful for educated guesses, it's not a rule and can easily be defeated at the individual level. if someone finds they are an outlier, it's obvious that this study is meaningless to that individual.[/QUOTE] Jesus Christ, man - you've just gone FULL retard. ALL psychological and sociological studies are based on averages and adhere to distributions such as bell curves. Hell, even biology, chemistry and physics exhibit this same statistical characteristic. You can't say a study's not valid because there are outliers - there are almost ALWAYS outliers.

[QUOTE=Vasili;43052692]I think they like to argue these days if gender is a social construct.[/QUOTE] Which doesn't conflict with this, of course.

In spite of that I still know girls with seemingly-freakish coordination and perception. They're like goddamn ninjas wearing tank-tops.

[QUOTE=sltungle;43053080]Men and women are certainly different. That doesn't make one sex better than the other by any means, but acknowledging our differences would go a long way to making our own lives a LOT easy and a LOT less stressful.[/QUOTE] i'll have to respectfully disagree with you there. there may be minor differences in psychology, but surely the differences within genders would be just as if not more significant than the differences between them? the other problem of course is that people like to use the biological differences between men and women to justify stereotyping as well as double standards, like slut bashing for instance. our society would benefit infinitely more from ignoring the differences between sexes than it would by embracing them.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;43053165]In spite of that I still know girls with seemingly-freakish coordination and perception. They're like goddamn ninjas wearing tank-tops.[/QUOTE] And they're the outliers. We don't have 'women driver' jokes for no reason. It is somewhat based off of fact. Insensitive? Perhaps. But it's not like it's a joke that materialised out of nothing.

[QUOTE=sltungle;43053185]And they're the outliers. We don't have 'women driver' jokes for no reason. It is somewhat based off of fact. Insensitive? Perhaps. But it's not like it's a joke that materialised out of nothing.[/QUOTE] don't be stupid. are you going to say the same thing about asian drivers? we have jokes about them too

[QUOTE=Cyanlime;43052686]get ready for the countless morons using this as an argument against womens' rights[/QUOTE] they're only going to be shit on instantly trying to actually go against womens rights these days is political suicide but some MAY get away with it for a while

[QUOTE=sltungle;43053080]Jesus Christ, man - you've just gone FULL retard. ALL psychological and sociological studies are based on averages and adhere to distributions such as bell curves. Hell, even biology, chemistry and physics exhibit this same statistical characteristic. You can't say a study's not valid because there are outliers - there are almost ALWAYS outliers.[/QUOTE] i'm an engineer, you think i dont know that? the thing is that while it's obvious from anyone in the field that this kind of thing has statistical distribution, it's not as obvious to people who cant even pass high school maths. those are the kind of people that Venezuelan is concerned about who don't understand distribution and think if the average is different, then subsequently all men exceed all women at said task. while you could try and explain that they're in the 95th percentile and there's nothing stopping them from doing what they have shown they can do, it's better to not even try explaining and just tell them that averages aren't the sole influence on an individual.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43053193]don't be stupid. are you going to say the same thing about asian drivers? we have jokes about them too[/QUOTE] My Asian friends talk about how shitty their parents are at driving all of the damn time! One of them tells his mum to jokingly 'open her eyes' and then comments how she can't. I don't know why that particular stereotype exists, but it does. Perhaps it's because Asia makes up such a large percentage of the human population so it seems like a lot of them are shitty drivers even though it could statistically be just as high a proportion as drivers of other races. Or perhaps they truly are poor drivers. I don't know.

[QUOTE=sltungle;43053185] We don't have 'women driver' jokes for no reason. It is somewhat based off of fact. Insensitive? Perhaps. But it's not like it's a joke that materialised out of nothing.[/QUOTE] Conservatives who think women shouldn't be allowed to drive and work?

[QUOTE=Cyanlime;43053173]i'll have to respectfully disagree with you there. there may be minor differences in psychology, but surely the differences within genders would be just as if not more significant than the differences between them? the other problem of course is that people like to use the biological differences between men and women to justify stereotyping as well as double standards, like slut bashing for instance. our society would benefit infinitely more from ignoring the differences between sexes than it would by embracing them.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Devodiere;43053217]i'm an engineer, you think i dont know that? the thing is that while it's obvious from anyone in the field that this kind of thing has statistical distribution, it's not as obvious to people who cant even pass high school maths. those are the kind of people that Venezuelan is concerned about who don't understand distribution and think if the average is different, then subsequently all men exceed all women at said task. while you could try and explain that they're in the 95th percentile and there's nothing stopping them from doing what they have shown they can do, it's better to not even try explaining and just tell them that averages aren't the sole influence on an individual.[/QUOTE] So in both of these cases the solution is, "ignore the differences because they're too hard to explain to the masses"? Doesn't that seem like an incredibly lazy and incredibly shitty solution to a problem? We should be educating people about these things, not ignoring them because SOME assholes will use it as an excuse to discriminate.

[QUOTE=sltungle;43053219]My Asian friends talk about how shitty their parents are at driving all of the damn time! One of them tells his mum to jokingly 'open her eyes' and then comments how she can't. I don't know why that particular stereotype exists, but it does. Perhaps it's because Asia makes up such a large percentage of the human population so it seems like a lot of them are shitty drivers even though it could statistically be just as high a proportion as drivers of other races. Or perhaps they truly are poor drivers. I don't know.[/QUOTE] stereotypes exist because some people are lazy idiots that are willing to judge people based on their appearance rather than their individual merits. they don't exist for a 'reason' other than that

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;43052862]I didn't say the study was intrinsically harmful did I Just saying we need to be careful socially in assuring it doesn't become a self-fulfilling prophecy and yet you never hear anyone citing that to keep men out of certain fields do you[/QUOTE] yes i do, i hear that men are terrible nurses because we aren't socially empathetic enough. plus the current nurse training programs at CSM and canada college are 99% female, most guys end up dropping.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43053245]stereotypes exist because some people are lazy idiots that are willing to judge people based on their appearance rather than their individual merits. they don't exist for a 'reason' other than that[/QUOTE] Some of them are legitimate. Large populations of certain groups fit or follow alot of stereotypes perfectly.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;43053066]in a discussion purely with text you miss a lot of subtle clues so forgive me if you weren't actually after a rebuttal. if your only complaint though is my tone then feel free to bow out and maybe join a debate club where you're protected from people being snarky. i realised that while writing but you know, hyperbole. the fact remains that this kind of result only shows averages and while it may be useful for educated guesses, it's not a rule and can easily be defeated at the individual level. if someone finds they are an outlier, it's obvious that this study is meaningless to that individual.[/QUOTE] I don't mind a rebuttal I'd just prefer not to be smashed on the head with it

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43053245]stereotypes exist because some people are lazy idiots that are willing to judge people based on their appearance rather than their individual merits. they don't exist for a 'reason' other than that[/QUOTE] That's part of what 'averages' do. When MOST people in a given sample who fit a description exhibit similar behaviours a stereotype is born. Once again it's not necessarily representative of 100% of that population (it's all a statistical thing), but it's usually representative of a fair portion of that population. You're in New Zealand. I guarantee you if you fly across here to Australia you'll very quickly see some very stereotypical individuals.

That was weird. [IMG]http://u.cubeupload.com/Chinook249/bra.png[/IMG] :v:

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43053193]don't be stupid. are you going to say the same thing about asian drivers? we have jokes about them too[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=sltungle;43053219]My Asian friends talk about how shitty their parents are at driving all of the damn time! One of them tells his mum to jokingly 'open her eyes' and then comments how she can't. I don't know why that particular stereotype exists, but it does. Perhaps it's because Asia makes up such a large percentage of the human population so it seems like a lot of them are shitty drivers even though it could statistically be just as high a proportion as drivers of other races. Or perhaps they truly are poor drivers. I don't know.[/QUOTE] the point being that dismissing something purely because there is a stereotype of it and you assume all stereotypes are garbage is idiocy. most stereotypes have some origin and some even have a basis in fact, simply being a stereotype is not enough to judge the validity of it. [QUOTE=Lachz0r;43053245]stereotypes exist because some people are lazy idiots that are willing to judge people based on their appearance rather than their individual merits. they don't exist for a 'reason' other than that[/QUOTE] stereotypes exist because the masses do their own unscientific statistical analysis based on their impressions of different groups. many are outdated, only partially true, or complete bullshit, but the fact remains that we can't learn the individual merits of every single person so we take educated guesses based on obvious attributes about them, however right or wrong they are. [QUOTE=sltungle;43053230]So in both of these cases the solution is, "ignore the differences because they're too hard to explain to the masses"? Doesn't that seem like an incredibly lazy and incredibly shitty solution to a problem? We should be educating people about these things, not ignoring them because SOME assholes will use it as an excuse to discriminate.[/QUOTE] my view is that we tell people but give a simplified version of why there are outliers because yes, statistics are hard to explain to the masses. i dont care if it's lazy, it's practical.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;43053217]i'm an engineer, you think i dont know that? the thing is that while it's obvious from anyone in the field that this kind of thing has statistical distribution, it's not as obvious to people who cant even pass high school maths. those are the kind of people that Venezuelan is concerned about who don't understand distribution and think if the average is different, then subsequently all men exceed all women at said task. while you could try and explain that they're in the 95th percentile and there's nothing stopping them from doing what they have shown they can do, it's better to not even try explaining and just tell them that averages aren't the sole influence on an individual.[/QUOTE] Wait now I'm confused because it seems like you agree with me?

[QUOTE=Juniez;43052717]a possible suggestion might be that the brains are strengthening connections based on the conformed social roles/tasks instead of a genetic predisposition[/QUOTE] I doubt that, If it is happening around the same age as puberty takes place, it's much more likely it is linked to hormones, the logical next step here would to be investigating the effects different levels of said hormones effect brain development. I don't see why it's going to be hard to admit that males and females have different brain wiring, they have different genitalia and we accept that; it's neither something that should be enforced by society or seen as a weakness, merely knowing how your own physiology is.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43053273]Some of them are legitimate. Large populations of certain groups fit or follow alot of stereotypes perfectly.[/QUOTE] Even though some sterotypes may be legitimate, they can still be harmful because a lot of people use only those sterotypes to judge people.

[QUOTE=Valnar;43053350]Even though some sterotypes may be legitimate, they can still be harmful because people only use those sterotypes to judge people.[/QUOTE] It's unfortunate, but humans do that; we naturally group people (and ourselves), and each group has stereotypes; and facepunch certainly it's exactly shining in this, considering how much people here bash r/atheism, bronies, people who like fedoras, etc... I'm not justifying passing someone off simply because of a stereotype, but unless you actually learn about that person, it's sometimes all you have to go on.

[QUOTE=glitchvid;43053390]It's unfortunate, but humans do that; we naturally group people (and ourselves), and each group has stereotypes; and facepunch certainly it's exactly shining in this, considering how much people here bash r/atheism, bronies, people who like fedoras, etc... I'm not justifying passing someone off simply because of a stereotype, but unless you actually learn about that person, it's sometimes all you have to go on.[/QUOTE] But that is the danger of it, you really shouldn't judge someone, or a group of people, based off of stereotypes. Stereotypes are too incomplete to develop a valid view. More people should be at least aware of that fact.

[QUOTE=Valnar;43053410]But that is the danger of it, you really shouldn't judge someone, or a group of people, based off of stereotypes. Stereotypes are too incomplete to develop a valid view. More people should be at least aware of that fact.[/QUOTE] You can't fix stupid or lack of context. All you can do is call it when you see it. Stereotypes exist whether you acknowledge them or not, whether they enforce positive/negative social paradigms or not. The human brain is [b]literally[/b] wired to sort things into ascending/descending patterns and then associate those patterns with others. That's the how the hardware works. Social conditioning can only overcome so much.

[QUOTE=27X;43053445]You can't fix stupid or lack of context. All you can do is call it when you see it. Stereotypes exist whether you acknowledge them or not, whether they enforce positive/negative social paradigms or not.[/QUOTE] If people want to get rid of negative stereotypes they'll need to get rid of positive stereotypes as well.