‘Prisoner of conscience’: Saudi blogger gets 10 years, 1000 lashes for ‘insulting Islam’ - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Mabus;44753576]1000 lashes? There wouldn't be a shred of skin left on the poor mans back, he could bleed out. 100 lashes is enough to put someone unconscious with the pain.[/QUOTE] Will probably be something like 20 lashes per month for 50 months

[quote]His lawyers said the sentence was too severe for a blogger. However, the prosecutor demanded a harsher penalty, according to Saudi news website Sabq. They wanted him to be charged with apostasy, a graver accusation which leads to the death sentence.[/quote] This is the scariest part. How can we allow any country, in this day and age, to execute somebody for leaving the religion in which they were born, for which they had absolutely no power to choose?

[QUOTE=Jamsponge;44754862]This is the scariest part. How can we allow any country, in this day and age, to execute somebody for leaving the religion in which they were born, for which they had absolutely no power to choose?[/QUOTE] Forcing another country to change based on our own ideals is generally a bad idea. Even ignoring the fact that this is inarguably awful, actually getting Saudi Arabia to change would be horrendously difficult.

[QUOTE=bizzycola;44753595]My guess is it probably isn't all done at once.[/QUOTE] It's a death sentence either way. 1000 lashes spread out over 10 years is going to result in wounds remaining constantly open. That's a guaranteed infection, and something tells me that Saudi Arabia doesn't have the will or resources to continually torture someone for 10 years while simultaneously keeping them medically healthy.

[QUOTE=Ogris;44753488]On average, facepunch tends to lean towards hating Islam most of the time. Can't blame people with shit like this going on, but it's not the religion at fault guys.[/QUOTE] I don't see Christians whipping fuckers for disagreeing.

[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;44755113]I don't see Christians whipping fuckers for disagreeing.[/QUOTE] I can see Jews doing it...

[QUOTE=Robman8908;44755134]I can see Jews doing it...[/QUOTE] That would me more ironic than anything

[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;44755113]I don't see Christians whipping fuckers for disagreeing.[/QUOTE] You don't see, therefore it doesn't happen? Violent christian extremism isn't exactly a rarity in Africa.

[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;44755113]I don't see Christians whipping fuckers for disagreeing.[/QUOTE] [IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YTauIa7Z6V4/UQZJmUBQMsI/AAAAAAAALbM/ZNMr4Bms20o/s1600/whipping3.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;44755113]I don't see Christians whipping fuckers for disagreeing.[/QUOTE] Modern religion is as much a tool for politics as it is a way of faith. While Islam might be misused as a religion to fight wars and enact what the West would consider unjust punishments, it's not like Christianity wasn't used as a tool to fight wars in God's name or even sway voters by keeping some churches' tax-free charity status that operate more like businesses .

[QUOTE=LZTYBRN;44755270][IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YTauIa7Z6V4/UQZJmUBQMsI/AAAAAAAALbM/ZNMr4Bms20o/s1600/whipping3.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] We're talking modern day.

[QUOTE=LZTYBRN;44755270][IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YTauIa7Z6V4/UQZJmUBQMsI/AAAAAAAALbM/ZNMr4Bms20o/s1600/whipping3.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] That's a slave whipping from Richmond, Virginia in the 1850s-- not the religious lashing of a guy for "insulting Islam" or "insulting Christianity" in 2014.

[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;44756057]That's a slave whipping from Richmond, Virginia in the 1850s-- not the religious lashing of a guy for "insulting Islam" or "insulting Christianity" in 2014.[/QUOTE] He said "I dont see christians whipping people", so that's mostly what that was in response to. Regardless, Saudi Arabia is an religious extremist country run by religious extremists. Say that Islam "tells people to do these things" is an outright lie. The most the Qor'an says about non-believers is that if a believer renounces his faith in Allah, he will go to hell when he dies. This is the accepted meaning of the scripture in the majority of the region, but obviously there are certain governing bodies and countries that take this far too seriously. Saudi Arabia is the only country that hands out the death penalty and lashings and prison for something as trivial as a blog that criticizes the rules put forth in Saudi Arabia. I have never seen as much ignorance about a religion/culture as I have in this thread, for example: [QUOTE=DrugUnit;44753435]Islam the religion of "tolerance" and "peace"[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Monkey san;44753485]At least we are trying to remove the gay camps and we condemn it, meanwhile they aren't really doing anything to improve the situation.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Charybdis;44753524]But it tells them to do these things[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=TheTalon;44753575]Well, Islam says so, so yes. Not many religions are purely peaceful with no violence or slaying of the nonbelievers of this particular religion in it, but in 2014, Islam is the worst about it.[/QUOTE] The Qor'an does not tell anyone to kill anybody, and murder is in fact expressly forbidden by Islamic Law: [QUOTE]1. Terrorism is above all murder. Murder is strictly forbidden in the Qur’an. Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted). 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”[/QUOTE] Granted the scripture reads that "lawful death" is permitted, but it later clarifies that "unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land". Because of Saudi Arabia's twisted interpretations of the Qor'an, they actively try to suppress anyone who even TRIES to speak against it by putting them in jail or sentencing them to the death penalty. Once again, this is [I]one country[/I] that does this. If anyone in this thread did even a modicum of research, they would discover that Saudi Arabia is the most conservative uptight shitshow of a country. Saudi Arabia is, for all intents and purposes, very similar to North Korea. Except in this case, instead of being forced to worship a dictator, they are forced to live under radical Islamic Law.

[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;44753518]How, exactly, are muslims in Saudi Arabia supposed to condemn these punishments? All that'll happen is that they'll end up being lashed too.[/QUOTE] Can't lash everyone.

[QUOTE=Ogris;44753488]it's not the religion at fault guys.[/QUOTE] I don't think there's been a single religion that hasn't had some kind of extremist doing something extreme in the name of it. Hell, even Buddhism has extremists.

[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;44755887]We're talking modern day.[/QUOTE] Russia, Africa, Missouri.

[QUOTE=LZTYBRN;44756372]He said "I dont see christians whipping people", so that's mostly what that was in response to.[/quote] In relation to "I don't see Christians whipping people [i]for insulting Christianity/a particular religion[/i]", which is what's relevant to this blogger's particular case concerning Islam, it was not a relevant response. In addition to not having any relevance to the subject of religious issues in the modern world (again, it's a slave whipping-- not a heretic or blasphemer whipping), that photograph is 150+ years old and therefore not modern. [QUOTE=LZTYBRN;44756372]Regardless, Saudi Arabia is an religious extremist country run by religious extremists.[/quote] Yep. "Extremist" in that it's a religiously literalist country. [QUOTE=LZTYBRN;44756372]Say that Islam "tells people to do these things" is an outright lie. The most the Qor'an says about non-believers is that if a believer renounces his faith in Allah, he will go to hell when he dies.[/quote] Well actually Saudi Arabia's legal system, that is to say the same legal system which has condemned this man to suffer a thousand lashes for "insulting Islam", applies Sharia law, which is of course directly based off of the religion's two most fundamental elements: the lifestyle traditions and practices set down by Muhammad himself, and the textual passages of the Quran. The Sunnah (those traditions and practices established by Muhammad) and the Quran tell people to do a lot of things. Insofar as the Quran alone goes, saying that the most it says about nonbelievers is that "they'll go to hell when they die if they renounce their faith" is what's an outright lie. It directly orders that Muslims should "kill them [nonbelievers] wherever you find them" (Surah 2, verse 191). Actually it contends that a lack of belief is "worse than killing". Fighting and killing for God is repeatedly condoned as virtuous. There are literally dozens of passages in that holy book preaching violence, for a multitude of reasons-- most of them ridiculous. War, struggle, and conquest are central elements to this religion, and there's no possible way you or anyone else can attempt to downplay that fact. Muhammad himself stands as a testament to this. [QUOTE=LZTYBRN;44756372]This is the accepted meaning of the scripture in the majority of the region, but obviously there are certain governing bodies and countries that take this far too seriously. [b]Saudi Arabia is the only country that hands out the death penalty and lashings and prison for something as trivial as a blog that criticizes the rules put forth in Saudi Arabia.[/b][/quote] Uh, no it isn't. Did you forget about Iran? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Yemen? These countries all apply Sharia law in full and hand out death sentences and brutal punishments for trivial bullshit all the fucking time. Blasphemy, homosexuality, witchcraft... it's absolutely outrageous. And those are only the Middle Eastern countries that apply it; there's Asian and African countries that do as well. Bear in mind I'm not even going into detail about countries where it's regularly applied for personal matters or on a regional basis either, only countries where it's applied in total force. [QUOTE=LZTYBRN;44756372]I have never seen as much ignorance about a religion/culture as I have in this thread, for example:[/quote] You aren't exactly a bastion of wisdom on this issue, you know... [QUOTE=LZTYBRN;44756372]The Qor'an does not tell anyone to kill anybody, and murder is in fact expressly forbidden by Islamic Law:[/quote] [quote]"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And [disbelief] is worse than killing . . . but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against [the polytheists, criminals, etc.]" Surah 2, verse 191[/quote] [quote]"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing: But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks . . ." Surah 4, verse 89[/quote] [quote]"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement." Surah 5, verse 33[/quote] Just a few of my personal favorite verses from the Quran, for their particular condonations of brutality towards nonbelievers for the sake of them being nonbelievers. There's plenty of others like this, not only talking about how you should actively hunt them down, but how if you should ever meet them in battle they should be treated without any mercy; as I said before, these kinds of verses in the Quran number in the dozens. War, hatred, struggle, and conquest are undeniably central elements to this religion and historically were to none other than Muhammad himself. That's just a matter of fact. [QUOTE=LZTYBRN;44756372]Because of Saudi Arabia's twisted interpretations of the Qor'an, they actively try to suppress anyone who even TRIES to speak against it by putting them in jail or sentencing them to the death penalty.[/quote] Except Saudi Arabia doesn't have a "twisted interpretation" of the Quran, nor the Sunnah. They have not twisted anything, and that's exactly what's so startling about them. They're literalists; this is what their ideological foundations (Muhammad and the Quran) literally condone and command of them. [QUOTE=LZTYBRN;44756372]Once again, this is [I]one country[/I] that does this. If anyone in this thread did even a modicum of research, they would discover that Saudi Arabia is the most conservative uptight shitshow of a country.[/quote] One of many others that do it as well. Again, why are you conveniently ignoring Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Yemen? These are significant countries, you know, that have tens of millions of people that live in them. They're not just little fringe states that occupy nothing and aren't important. [QUOTE=LZTYBRN;44756372]Saudi Arabia is, for all intents and purposes, very similar to North Korea. Except in this case, instead of being forced to worship a dictator, they are forced to live under radical Islamic Law.[/QUOTE] How the hell does that make them similar? One is a Communist military dictatorship that adheres to strict Atheism, the other is an absolute monarchy that binges on Islam and derives its entire legal system from religion. They're both totalitarian (although North Korea is the champion there compared to Saudi Arabia; it's the closest thing the world has ever had to a real-life [i]1984[/i]), and they're both strict about religion (or the lack thereof in North Korea's case). That's where the similarities end. Again, I'll say it for the final time, this is a religion that was historically founded upon war, conquest, hatred, and struggle by a man who himself exalted and lived by these things. Any religion can be twisted by extremists to become extremely violent and intolerant (Christianity has been, Judaism has been, even Buddhism has had its extremists), but Islam is a religion in and of itself which was from the very beginning extremist.

This was the first thing i thought of when I read the post title. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfnn90Ozk0U[/media]

[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;44759408]Just a few of my personal favorite verses from the Quran, for their particular condonations of brutality towards nonbelievers for the sake of them being nonbelievers. There's plenty of others like this, not only talking about how you should actively hunt them down, but how if you should ever meet them in battle they should be treated without any mercy; as I said before, these kinds of verses in the Quran number in the dozens. [/QUOTE] You do realize all of those quotes are self-defense quotes directed at people fighting muslims at war right. All 3 of those quotes even have the, If you stop fighting against us all is forgiven, quote right afterwards. The first quote you posted even has the forgiveness part built in, can't you read? [QUOTE]Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them. Surah 4, verse 90 [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Surah 5, verse 34[/QUOTE]

If I had a private army, I bust the guy out of jail, get him free healthcare treatment to recover from the lashings, and slice and diced the torturers and all who supports the torture, and get the prisoner and his entire family out of that piece of shit country.

[QUOTE=KingArcher;44759695]You do realize all of those quotes are self-defense quotes directed at people fighting muslims at war right. All 3 of those quotes even have the, If you stop fighting against us all is forgiven, quote right afterwards. The first quote you posted even has the forgiveness part built in, can't you read?[/quote] Verse 191 of Surah 2 does not make any calls for Muslims to forgive their enemies, it says in the eyes of God they will be forgiven. It's very specific: "And fight them until there is no more [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against [polytheists, criminals, etc.]". This is not a plea to be defensive; it's openly calling all followers to attack disbelievers ("Fitnah") and as well polytheists ("Az-Zalimun", which also refers to general wrongdoers) until they're all either dead or until they cease their disbelief/belief in many gods/"wrongdoing". Surah 2 was also revealed after Mohammad and his followers had left Mecca for the outskirts of Medina at Quba and finally moved into Medina itself (300ish miles away), because there were fears for Mohammad's safety. Such fears, particularly of assassination, were unfounded; you won't find any historical record of any act of aggression by the Meccans (or anyone else for that matter) against Mohammad or his followers, it's just part of the traditional story. They weren't at war with anybody at this time in 622, so you're quite wrong claiming that they were. There were no plans by anyone to declare war on them; the Meccans had no influence over Medina, and they were quite content to leave Mohammad and the Muslims the fuck alone. All they did was bar them from returning to Mecca, they didn't pursue them or anything. Additionally, insofar as the Surah 4 verse 89 goes, it's immediately followed up by: [quote]"Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you guarantees of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: in their case we have provided you with a clear argument against them." Surah 4, verse 91[/quote] ^ Basically, if they don't just lay down and give in to you, they're going to betray you (because there's obviously no other explanation for them to not concede with such passive behavior) and you must therefore for your own sake kill them. That makes no sense. Similarly, Surah 4 contains a couple other verses which completely uproot the idea that they're calling for all this shit out of self-defense: [quote]"Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home. Unto all in Faith Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit at home by a special reward . . ." Surah 4, verse 95[/quote] ^ If you're a peaceful Muslim who doesn't join in on the fighting, you're not as special compared to your spiritual brethren who are warriors. [quote]"And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain . . ." Surah 4, verse 104[/quote] ^ Run all your retreating enemies down and kill them. What mental gymnastics do you have to put your brain through to genuinely think that this is encouraging self-defense? Now granted most of these passages do contain some reference to forgiveness, but only as far as God himself goes. It's still permitted for you, if you're a Muslim, to kill; actually, it's pretty actively encouraged for purely offensive reasons as you can plainly see from the examples above. You should really learn to read, not only so you can understand the Quran but also so you can learn more about Islamic history. I haven't bothered to talk about their war with Mecca, or their treatment of other religious groups in the region (including the Jews), but put simply they were pretty barbaric and offensive in their actions (not defensive, as you claim).

[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;44759408]Yep. "Extremist" in that it's a religiously literalist country.[/QUOTE] No, extremist in that it's an extremist fucking country. I grew up in the Middle East, I'm half arab, and I used to be Muslim, I know more about the culture there than you ever will [QUOTE]The Sunnah (those traditions and practices established by Muhammad) and the Quran tell people to do a lot of things. Insofar as the Quran alone goes, saying that the most it says about nonbelievers is that "they'll go to hell when they die if they renounce their faith" is what's an outright lie. It directly orders that Muslims should "kill them [nonbelievers] wherever you find them" (Surah 2, verse 191). Actually it contends that a lack of belief is "worse than killing". Fighting and killing for God is repeatedly condoned as virtuous.[/QUOTE] Close, but no cigar. You're leaving out the parts that say that this shit is only okay in times of war, or when Muslims are under attack for their own beliefs. Googling "killing non believers in Islam" yields a website you've used as a source that only has half the story. [QUOTE][2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors. [2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers. [2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful. [2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]There are literally dozens of passages in that holy book preaching violence, for a multitude of reasons-- most of them ridiculous. War, struggle, and conquest are central elements to this religion, and there's no possible way you or anyone else can attempt to downplay that fact. Muhammad himself stands as a testament to this.[/QUOTE] "Muhammad himself" was indeed a conqueror, and spread the territory of Islam far and wide by conquering states and cities. "War" is not a part of this religion, insofar as it isn't written that war should be an acceptable thing. Conquest was used as a tool to spread the religion, I will concede that, and "struggle" is debatable. Muhammad and his followers did sometimes force people to convert, but they were not killed if they refused, they were taxed heavily or had their properties taken. Shitty thing to do, of course, but they were not killed. This is likely because of the idea that Allah knew what was best for people whether they knew or not. Again, shitty practices but it's not like Muhammad and his conquerors were the only people to use these tactics in conquest (byzantines, crusaders, countless others) [QUOTE]Uh, no it isn't. Did you forget about Iran? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Yemen? These countries all apply Sharia law in full and hand out death sentences and brutal punishments for trivial bullshit all the fucking time. Blasphemy, homosexuality, witchcraft... it's absolutely outrageous. And those are only the Middle Eastern countries that apply it; there's Asian and African countries that do as well. Bear in mind I'm not even going into detail about countries where it's regularly applied for personal matters or on a regional basis either, only countries where it's applied in total force.[/QUOTE] Iran uses executions to punish heinous crimes more often than they do punishing shit like homosexuality and witchcraft. Shit like robbery, murder, rape, terrorism, etc etc etc. I wont say that they outright /haven't/ executed for that other shit, as I dont have a full list of every execution in Iran ever, but I know that even in Iran they are more progressive than Saudi Arabia. I can't speak for Pakistan. Don't know enough about it. Afghanistan doesnt have nearly as many executions as Saudi has, but the law there is shaky at best. Several people have been executed there without trial if my memory serves me right. Can't speak for Yemen. [QUOTE]Just a few of my personal favorite verses from the Quran, for their particular condonations of brutality towards nonbelievers for the sake of them being nonbelievers. There's plenty of others like this, not only talking about how you should actively hunt them down, but how if you should ever meet them in battle they should be treated without any mercy; as I said before, these kinds of verses in the Quran number in the dozens.[/QUOTE] Contradictions in a holy book? Inconcievable! [QUOTE]War, hatred, struggle, and conquest are undeniably central elements to this religion and historically were to none other than Muhammad himself. That's just a matter of fact.[/QUOTE] That's not a matter of fact. [QUOTE]Except Saudi Arabia doesn't have a "twisted interpretation" of the Quran, nor the Sunnah. They have not twisted anything, and that's exactly what's so startling about them. They're literalists; this is what their ideological foundations (Muhammad and the Quran) literally condone and command of them.[/QUOTE] Again, extremist literalists. Very few middle eastern countries that have islamic law incorporated at all do this. Saudi is not a progressive state. [QUOTE]How the hell does that make them similar? One is a Communist military dictatorship that adheres to strict Atheism, the other is an absolute monarchy that binges on Islam and derives its entire legal system from religion. They're both totalitarian (although North Korea is the champion there compared to Saudi Arabia; it's the closest thing the world has ever had to a real-life [i]1984[/i]), and they're both strict about religion (or the lack thereof in North Korea's case). That's where the similarities end.[/QUOTE] I didnt mean they're similar in every single microscopic way, I was using it as a general metaphor. [QUOTE]Again, I'll say it for the final time, this is a religion that was historically founded upon war, conquest, hatred, and struggle by a man who himself exalted and lived by these things. Any religion can be twisted by extremists to become extremely violent and intolerant (Christianity has been, Judaism has been, even Buddhism has had its extremists), but Islam is a religion in and of itself which was from the very beginning extremist.[/QUOTE] Again, no. [editline]8th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;44760211] Now granted most of these passages do contain some reference to forgiveness, but only as far as God himself goes. [B]It's still permitted for you, if you're a Muslim, to kill; actually, it's pretty actively encouraged[/B][/QUOTE] Oh my gooooooooooood literally fuck off

[QUOTE=Araknid;44753478]theres always one post like this in every thread relating to islam. do you really think every muslim ever on earth agrees with this[/QUOTE] No but their book does.

[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;44760211]Verse 191 of Surah 2 does not make any calls for Muslims to forgive their enemies, it says in the eyes of God they will be forgiven. It's very specific: "And fight them until there is no more [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against [polytheists, criminals, etc.]". This is not a plea to be defensive; it's openly calling all followers to attack disbelievers ("Fitnah") and as well polytheists ("Az-Zalimun", which also refers to general wrongdoers) until they're all either dead or until they cease their disbelief/belief in many gods/"wrongdoing". Surah 2 was also revealed after Mohammad and his followers had left Mecca for the outskirts of Medina at Quba and finally moved into Medina itself (300ish miles away), because there were fears for Mohammad's safety. Such fears, particularly of assassination, were unfounded; you won't find any historical record of any act of aggression by the Meccans (or anyone else for that matter) against Mohammad or his followers, it's just part of the traditional story. They weren't at war with anybody at this time in 622, so you're quite wrong claiming that they were. There were no plans by anyone to declare war on them; the Meccans had no influence over Medina, and they were quite content to leave Mohammad and the Muslims the fuck alone. All they did was bar them from returning to Mecca, they didn't pursue them or anything.[/QUOTE] The pagan Quraysh broke a treaty with Muhammad and his allies and attacked first, Banu Bakr attacked Banu Khuza'a. Which caused the conquest of Mecca, and that's an act of aggression if I've ever seen one. He was never the aggressor in any of these wars. Plus theres plenty of evidence of torture and prosecution of Muslim Meccans before they left like the ole lay them on burning sand technique. [QUOTE]^ Basically, if they don't just lay down and give in to you, they're going to betray you (because there's obviously no other explanation for them to not concede with such passive behavior) and you must therefore for your own sake kill them. That makes no sense. [/QUOTE] So making sure the peaced-out enemy can't betray you later makes no sense? Maybe this was justified granted that several treaties would be broken with them [QUOTE] If you're a peaceful Muslim who doesn't join in on the fighting, you're not as special compared to your spiritual brethren who are warriors. [/QUOTE] Yeah causes tend to like the people willing to make sacrifices for it. This is why countries tend to have so much respect for their soldiers. [QUOTE]^ Run all your retreating enemies down and kill them. What mental gymnastics do you have to put your brain through to genuinely think that this is encouraging self-defense? Now granted most of these passages do contain some reference to forgiveness, but only as far as God himself goes. It's still permitted for you, if you're a Muslim, to kill; actually, it's pretty actively encouraged for purely offensive reasons as you can plainly see from the examples above. You should really learn to read, not only so you can understand the Quran but also so you can learn more about Islamic history. I haven't bothered to talk about their war with Mecca, or their treatment of other religious groups in the region (including the Jews), but put simply they were pretty barbaric and offensive in their actions (not defensive, as you claim).[/QUOTE] Perhaps self-defense was the wrong word, I meant that Muslims can kill non-believers in war and obviously war isn't just an islamic thing, but the Quran still doesn't support the killing of just any old civilian infidel, only the ones who are waving swords at you menacingly. The Muslims didn't really care about non-believers in their territory as long as they paid their taxes. But I'm just gonna get out of here since no one changes each others minds with these arguments anyway.

[QUOTE=Jamsponge;44754862]This is the scariest part. How can we allow any country, in this day and age, to execute somebody for leaving the religion in which they were born, for which they had absolutely no power to choose?[/QUOTE] Ughh tell me about it,one of the states in my country can legally change their laws to Shariah Law and currently they're trying to do it. While that state is always known for being a very conservative Islamic state,it still scares me that an overwhelming amount of people around me agree with the decision. Thankfully they're allied with two pretty large Parties that are against it so I guess I'm safe for now.

[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;44759408] How the hell does that make them similar? One is a Communist military dictatorship that adheres to strict Atheism, [/QUOTE] Well, an Atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a higher power/religion. But the North Korean's believe Kim is a higher power... so I'd say they really aren't atheist. [QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;44753453]Nothing to do with the people in charge, no sir. [editline]8th May 2014[/editline] I mean shit, say that gay conversation camps in the US are representative of Christianity and you get you face boxed out of your ass, but these comments are kosher?[/QUOTE] Why is the first reaction "Oh but THEY did it TOO!" Nobody is saying they didn't (or if they do, they're wrong.), it's that in current times, Islam is the worst offender, here and now. It would be very wise to get Skepticism and free speech (of sorts) into the middle east, then they can help themselves. [QUOTE=Ogris;44753488]On average, facepunch tends to lean towards hating Islam most of the time. Can't blame people with shit like this going on, but it's not the religion at fault guys.[/QUOTE] "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

The faggots in those countries' [i]governments[/i] just have god's complex and choose lash the fuck out of everything, terrorize, etc.

[QUOTE=glitchvid;44761317]Well, an Atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a higher power/religion. But the North Korean's believe Kim is a higher power... so I'd say they really aren't atheist. Why is the first reaction "Oh but THEY did it TOO!" Nobody is saying they didn't (or if they do, they're wrong.), it's that in current times, Islam is the worst offender, here and now. It would be very wise to get Skepticism and free speech (of sorts) into the middle east, then they can help themselves. "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg[/QUOTE] The problems with the Middle East are much more complex to just blame it on the religion.

[QUOTE=KingArcher;44761346]The problems with the Middle East are much more complex to just blame it on the religion.[/QUOTE] Yes, they are more complex, but that does not excuse Islam from being a massive problem. If a large percentage of the Middle East were skeptical, they would not have many of the problems they do. [editline]May 9th[/editline] Well, I guess you can't see the problems quite a clearly unless you've seen it from the outside. Religion is the spreading of ignorance, plain and simple.

[QUOTE=glitchvid;44761376]Yes, they are more complex, but that does not excuse Islam from being a massive problem. If a large percentage of the Middle East were skeptical, they would not have many of the problems they do.[/QUOTE] A large percentage of the Middle East isn't Saudi Arabia. Most people in the more progressive countries like Qatar, Kuwait, Lebanon, UAE etc. won't agree with the rules in Saudi Arabia. Saying "Islam is a massive problem" is the same as saying Christianity is a massive problem. The exception is not the rule.