• Atheist assaulted by Muslim, case dropped, victim criticized by judge for offending religious belief
    337 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;34915035]At what point does it become morally acceptable to be a total scumbag towards someone for no other reason than for giggles?[/QUOTE] At what point does it become morally acceptable to avoid the question?
[QUOTE=thisispain;34914973]getting rid of religion isn't going to remove the unjust institutions or make poverty any less. at most i'll just give people one less reason to do something.[/QUOTE] even if it removes just the evil untouchable kiddie fiddling catholic church, it will have been worth it
[QUOTE=Turnips5;34915086]even if it removes just the evil untouchable kiddie fiddling catholic church, it will have been worth it[/QUOTE] hah you're not going to get rid of the Catholic church just by saying naughty things. that's not just a religion, it's a whole country and institution by itself.
[QUOTE=teh pirate;34914991]Deliberately offending their beliefs in the way this guy was for the sole purpose of offending them and evoking a reaction is different from making an idle statement that you honestly believe to be factual and happening to offend someone along the way.[/QUOTE] Prove he was deliberately offending as opposed to deliberately opposing. You have a right to offend someone. You do not have any protection to not be offended. That's the end of story. If you're honestly justifying that it is immoral to oppose through action, or intentionally offend someone, then you're arguing to open a can of worms. There is no reason that a violent response should have occurred. There is no moral issue here other than ones people are making up because they don't like being offended. I'm going to cue you in on something- morality has nothing to do with offence or being offended. That is a personal issue that is subjective to an independent basis, NOT a societal one.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34914973]getting rid of religion isn't going to remove the unjust institutions or make poverty any less. [I]at most i'll just give people one less reason to do something.[/I][/QUOTE] which is an improvement removing religion would at least free up some money that went into the payment of tithes and also tax exemption. in a broader sense you'd get rid of some of the opportunity costs involved in such a lifestyle. in an even broader sense, deconversion is an extremely rare and bloody important moment in someone's life. you've removed a paradigm of thought and you [I]haven't yet replaced it with anything else.[/I] this is something many people go their whole lives without, and for the people that go through it, it's a profoundly liberating experience of what it means to have [I]actual freedom of thought.[/I] I'm going to go out on a limb and draw from anecdotal evidence, but going through the epiphany causes a cascade of rational self-analysis which results in removing other tangential wrong beliefs as well, and results in the person at the other end being a much better person. even if there were no other benefits to deconversion I'd still think of hastening the deconversion process in others to be a worthwhile goal
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[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;34915035]At what point does it become morally acceptable to be a total scumbag towards someone for no other reason than for giggles? It doesn't.[/QUOTE] Yes it does. Being a scumbag isn't immoral. It just isn't nice. Harming someone is immoral. Because it's enacting force and will on someone else. Huge difference.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34915102]hah you're not going to get rid of the Catholic church just by saying naughty things. that's not just a religion, it's a whole country and institution by itself.[/QUOTE] and removing the religion causes the whole structure to collapse it's built on a marsh of bullshit
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];34915140']Yes it does. Being a scumbag isn't amoral. It just isn't nice. Harming someone is amoral. Because it's enacting force and will on someone else. Huge difference.[/QUOTE] The word you're looking for is immoral.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;34915171]The word you're looking for is immoral.[/QUOTE] Right, sorry.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;34915114]it's a profoundly liberating experience of what it means to have [I]actual freedom of thought.[/I][/QUOTE] Yeah, because you know how religious people are a hivemind with absolutely no dithering opinions or beliefs, which also don't change and evolve over time with society. They're all slaves, and we are liberators. We should remove their shackles, by force if we have to, so that these poor beings won't have to taste the tyranny of religion.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34915102]hah you're not going to get rid of the Catholic church just by saying naughty things. that's not just a religion, it's a whole country and institution by itself.[/QUOTE] ... saying naughty things? how about getting catholics (such as myself, less than 4 years ago) to walk away from blind faith and stop propping up the corrupt fucking institution that is the church? institutions such as the church do need believers to function, ya know. even if I'm a drop in the ocean, there's only a finite number of drips supporting the vatican. where do you think the pope gets the money for his phat bulletproof bubble car?
[QUOTE=Paramud;34915200]Yeah, because you know how religious people are a hivemind with absolutely no dithering opinions or beliefs, which also don't change and evolve over time with society. They're all slaves, and we are liberators. We should remove their shackles, by force if we have to, so that these poor beings won't have to taste the tyranny of religion.[/QUOTE] [t]http://www.fotoblography.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/straw-man.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=Paramud;34915200]Yeah, because you know how religious people are a hivemind with absolutely no dithering opinions or beliefs, which also don't change and evolve over time with society. They're all slaves, and we are liberators. We should remove their shackles, by force if we have to, so that these poor beings won't have to taste the tyranny of religion.[/QUOTE] thanks for your ridiculous strawman I'm glad we got a "dithering" opinion on the subject
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;34915259][t]http://www.fotoblography.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/straw-man.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] Oh, I'm not interested in arguing against your entire argument. Your argument is doing that for me.
[QUOTE=Paramud;34915272]Oh, I'm not interested in arguing against your entire argument. Your argument is doing that for me.[/QUOTE] if I thought humans were more sane I'd say the same about religion
[QUOTE=Turnips5;34915244] saying naughty things? how about getting catholics (such as myself, less than 4 years ago) to walk away from blind faith and stop propping up the corrupt fucking institution that is the church? [/QUOTE] nope that's not going to dismantle it because as long as the institutions take advantage of people who feel like they need religion the catholic institution will stay.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34915313]nope that's not going to dismantle it because as long as the institutions take advantage of [B]people who feel like they need religion[/B] the catholic institution will stay.[/QUOTE] ... that's literally what we're trying to prevent
[QUOTE=thisispain;34915313]nope that's not going to dismantle it because as long as the institutions take advantage of people who feel like they need religion the catholic institution will stay.[/QUOTE] then we try to work towards [i]reducing the number of people who feel like they need religion[/I], using rational arguments as a means to this end do you get why we're doing this now? [editline]28th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;34915361]... that's literally what we're trying to prevent[/QUOTE] bingo
reducing the number of people who need religion means you're going to have to make life a lot better for everyone. that doesn't mean shouting slogans at people.
[QUOTE=D-Roy;34914827]I came in here expecting most of Facepunch to blindly defend the atheist.[/QUOTE] I came here expecting everyone talking shit on the atheist. Guess i was right.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34915426]reducing the number of people who need religion means you're going to have to make life a lot better for everyone. that doesn't mean shouting slogans at people.[/QUOTE] I also commit to this
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;34915301]if I thought humans were more sane I'd say the same about religion[/QUOTE] Sorry, let me rephrase what I meant I don't see the point in your general argument. If religion didn't exist (which by itself is a huge if,) it may very well reduce issues in the world. But it's self-defeating to try and argue [i]for[/i] dismantling any and all religious thought because it will [b]never[/b] happen. Short of finding some way to wipe the mind of [b]every human on the planet[/b] and destroying [b]all[/b] evidence of it, there will always be religion. I can't believe you're actually serious about wanting to eradicate religion. (Hopefully you aren't.) If you are, there's absolutely nothing I could say to change your mind, because the idea is so butt-fuckingly impossible, there's nothing to say about it. I can, however, take enjoyment in arguing the small, but just as laughable, details in your argument, like what you said about religions regarding astrology or the mind's ability to heal the body.
at least in my political ideology, lol
[QUOTE=thisispain;34915426]reducing the number of people who need religion means you're going to have to make life a lot better for everyone. that doesn't mean shouting slogans at people.[/QUOTE] the purpose of the slogans isn't to deconvert people on the spot, not even ~militant atheists~ believe that a cynical person would say that it's to create an atheist "brand", which is sort of true. it doesn't cross a lot of people's mind that nonbelief is a legitimate position. these rallies are just to raise the profile of nonbelief in the public mind, get people at least open to reading about secularism.
[QUOTE=Paramud;34915463]But it's self-defeating to try and argue [i]for[/i] dismantling any and all religious thought because it will [b]never[/b] happen. Short of finding some way to wipe the mind of [b]every human on the planet[/b] and destroying [b]all[/b] evidence of it, there will always be religion. I can't believe you're actually serious about wanting to eradicate religion. (Hopefully you aren't.) If you are, there's absolutely nothing I could say to change your mind, because the idea is so butt-fuckingly impossible, there's nothing to say about it.[/QUOTE] what's your rationale behind this impossibility
[QUOTE=thisispain;34914973]getting rid of religion isn't going to remove the unjust institutions or make poverty any less. at most i'll just give people one less reason to do something.[/QUOTE] Almost every single war currently ongoing would be no longer. Half of bigotry and restriction of human rights would be gone. And we'd generally turn into a far more civilized and reasonable society.
[QUOTE=Paramud;34915463]Sorry, let me rephrase what I meant I don't see the point in your general argument. If religion didn't exist (which by itself is a huge if,) it may very well reduce issues in the world. But it's self-defeating to try and argue [i]for[/i] dismantling any and all religious thought because it will [b]never[/b] happen. Short of finding some way to wipe the mind of [b]every human on the planet[/b] and destroying [b]all[/b] evidence of it, there will always be religion. I can't believe you're actually serious about wanting to eradicate religion. (Hopefully you aren't.) If you are, there's absolutely nothing I could say to change your mind, because the idea is so butt-fuckingly impossible, there's nothing to say about it. I can, however, take enjoyment in arguing the small, but just as laughable, details in your argument, like what you said about religions regarding astrology or the mind's ability to heal the body.[/QUOTE] we've come a long way. in several countries, the number of actively religious folk is astonishingly low. it also happens that these countries rank at the top of nearly every measure of human development that you care to name. it's possible. [editline]28th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=znk666;34915512]Almost every single war currently ongoing would be no longer.[/quote] not true. [quote]Half of bigotry and restriction of human rights would be gone.[/quote] the justifications would be weaker, though I'm sure a small hardcore group of assholes would continue on regardless
[QUOTE=Turnips5;34915483]what's your rationale behind this impossibility[/QUOTE] The fact that it's impossible to entirely kill off an idea. In a society as large as Earth's, anyways. If such a thing were possible, atheism wouldn't be growing (at the very least, in acceptance) right now. [QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;34915523]we've come a long way. in several countries, the number of actively religious folk is astonishingly low. it also happens that these countries rank at the top of nearly every measure of human development that you care to name. it's possible.[/QUOTE] Unless you want to rewrite history, kommissar, it won't happen.
[QUOTE=znk666;34915512]Almost every single war currently ongoing would be no longer.[/QUOTE] that's an outright lie but okay. [QUOTE=znk666;34915512]Half of bigotry and restriction of human rights would be gone.[/QUOTE] human rights have been restricted for a lot of reasons, disagreement with a religion has never been one.
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