• Electricity crisis in Venezuela: 4-Hour long daily power outage starting on Monday 4/25/2016
    51 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;50194037]If any Venezuelans want to eject from South America please let me join them[/QUOTE] Count me in, too
[QUOTE=Kecske;50194847]Last I heard, gasoline is still piss cheap there, even though there was a relatively massive price increase. A completely shortsighted, mindless version of it, yes[/QUOTE] oh sorry, you're right. DEMOCRATIC socialism at work
[QUOTE=mr kjerr;50196570]oh sorry, you're right. DEMOCRATIC socialism at work[/QUOTE] ya but the trains run on time and the lights stay on in china, and they're communists [I]comparably worse than socialists[/I] if we're going to go down that route so your argument is flawed
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;50195361]I can guarantee you that there are priority buildings that won't have their power cut, Hospitals are very likely one of them.[/QUOTE] only very modern powergrids can do that sort of thing, eg not most of the US let alone venezuela
So, a bit of a preamble to this: Venezuela suffers from periodic drought. During the events of El Niño, which also occur with some periodicity, drought of course intensifies. We are experiencing unusually strong drought, and that has resulted in many of the country's natural water reservoirs drying out. One of the most important of which is the Guri Reservoir, which is man made, and part of the Simon Bolivar dam (Previously Raul Leoni dam, Chavez renamed it because Raul Leoni was a "right wing" president of the 4th Republic), it impounds the Caroni River which in turns is confluent, and constitutes part of the Orinoco River, one of the largest in the region. I'm saying all this, because that makes the dam actually fantastically built. It was truly a marvel of engineering in the years it was made (Roughly in the 1960's), it was even one of the largest hydroelectric plants ever made, surpassed many years later by the Three Gorges Dam and the Itaipu dam. The usage of hydroelectric power made perfect sense for the country, being an energy exporter, cutting our own need for fossil fuels means reducing domestic consumption while also using more of our plentiful natural resources. The reason why we're at this point is because nothing was done. Energy consumption nowadays wasn't what it was in the 90's, which is the last time the plant was ever upgraded. Maintenance problems have in fact meant that the plant is currently operating below capacity, AKA, why the blackouts are nothing new and have in fact been happening even during the rainy season where the dam levels are above optimal. So you may ask then, why not build OTHER sources of power? Thing is, we did! See what happened to them: [B]More hydroelectrical power:[/B] The Tocoma Dam has been in construction since 2006, it has since ran into problems due to its funding mysteriously disappearing, and despite being scheduled to be completed in 2012, it's nowhere near done today. [B]Sun Power:[/B] It has never been invested on in any large capacity. Private citizens can't afford it as the materials are all imported and thus prohibitively expensive. It would, ironically, counter seasonal drought very well, though. [B]Wind Power: [/B]We built 21 turbines in Paraguana, we had plans for more, but of course the project seems to have mysteriously [I]ran out of funds[/I]. They produces a pitiful amount of electricity, and there are rumors that they aren't actually wired up to anything. [B]Import from Colombia:[/B] We also used to do this. We seemingly [I]don't have enough money[/I] to do it anymore for some reason. [B]Thermoelectric Power:[/B] This also makes a lot of sense considering we are after all fossil fuel exporters. There are thermoelectric plants, in fact, several have been built in recent years, however due to maintenance problems generated due to [I]lack of funding[/I]. [B]Privatization: [/B]Not an option ever since the government took full control of the electric grid from private hands, but keep telling yourself the problem isn't socialism :smug:. So, in case you haven't caught on yet, the problem isn't that we lack any solutions to compensate for the output deficiency the Guri dam is having. The problem is [I]corruption[/I], the money intended to provide solutions for this problem has vanished. Additionally, the government has a subsidy on the electrical service, which means the government loses even more money providing electricity to citizens. This all in turns generates a negative shit-loop where nothing gets done and there is increasingly less money to solve the problem of nothing getting done. That's a template by the way, you can apply that same logic to nearly every single problem the country is facing, and it'll fit just fine. Our internet is shit because there hasn't been any upgrades or maintenance to the infrastructure established in the 90's and early 2000's despite increasing statization, same story with our water service, same story with our agricultural production, same story with our roads, and the list just goes on and on and on. [QUOTE=Map in a box;50196735]only very modern powergrids can do that sort of thing, eg not most of the US let alone venezuela[/QUOTE] Oh but we did! Just in a bit more of a discriminatory fashion. Since every single government building is located in Caracas (And also because the ministers' favorite homes are located there as well), Caracas is excluded from the rationing plan, despite [url=http://mppee.gob.ve/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/PLAN-DE-ADMINISTRACION-DE-CARGAS.pdf]the rest of the country[/url] already being scheduled for rationing.
[QUOTE=Sableye;50196638]ya but the trains run on time and the lights stay on in china, and they're communists [I]comparably worse than socialists[/I] if we're going to go down that route so your argument is flawed[/QUOTE] Have you ever seen rural China? It's not Stalin's perfect utopian paradise there.
[QUOTE=Sableye;50194794] Corruption and petroleum based economics at work, not building an adequate power grid has nothing to do with socialism or even communism for that matter[/QUOTE] If the main actor in this case is the socialist government of Venezuela, it's fair game to make the connection. It isn't a damning case against it, but it's a counterpoint to the success stories of Scandinavia.
[QUOTE=UserDirk580;50198281]If the main actor in this case is the socialist government of Venezuela, it's fair game to make the connection. It isn't a damning case against it, but it's a counterpoint to the success stories of Scandinavia.[/QUOTE]Doesn't have to mean it's the socialistic programs and etc that caused it. It's obvious that the sole reason is corruption and has nothing to do with socialism.
[QUOTE=CoreWaffle;50198408]Doesn't have to mean it's the socialistic programs and etc that caused it. It's obvious that the sole reason is corruption and has nothing to do with socialism.[/QUOTE] Both socialism and capitalism ultimately collapse due to corruption. It's easy to blame the system - but if there are humans involved at any point, the worst of them will float to the top of the septic tank of power.
[QUOTE=CoreWaffle;50198408]Doesn't have to mean it's the socialistic programs and etc that caused it. It's obvious that the sole reason is corruption and has nothing to do with socialism.[/QUOTE] When you put all your eggs in one basic [government control] and one egg is rotten [corruption] it makes the whole basket worthless.
Reminds me so much of when Romania was communist. Food lines, car lines for gas, sometimes you could find basic necessities like toilet paper, sometimes not, black-outs in industrial cities and all cities near big factories that sucked all the electricity from the grid, no heating during winter and many more. We killed Ceausescu for all that shit, but it seems Venezuelans just accept Maduro's bullshit.
[QUOTE=ph:lxyz;50198689]Both socialism and capitalism ultimately collapse due to corruption. It's easy to blame the system - but if there are humans involved at any point, the worst of them will float to the top of the septic tank of power.[/QUOTE] Thing is, if the government didn't own the electrical grid, it wouldn't have collapsed. Private enterprise and competition would have guaranteed that electricity providers are supplying people to the best of their service. A state company is allowed to fail, it is allowed to slack, particularly, when it has no competition. There is no incentive to improve it's services, there isn't even an incentive for it to correctly charge people for the service, because due to the government subsidy they're getting their money everywhere. Corruption IS a problem, it definitely aggravates, and is the root of many of the multiple problems this country has. But do not be mistaken, these policies that the government has tried to implement would have failed even in Sweden, currency control would have failed anywhere, and full government ownership of public services lead to collapses in any country in the world. The government itself doesn't believe them, you can it by just how quickly they got rid of Luis Salas, the only ideologically Chavista guy in the economic cabinet of Maduro.
[QUOTE=Fantastical;50198728]Reminds me so much of when Romania was communist. Food lines, car lines for gas, sometimes you could find basic necessities like toilet paper, sometimes not, black-outs in industrial cities and all cities near big factories that sucked all the electricity from the grid, no heating during winter and many more. We killed Ceausescu for all that shit, but it seems Venezuelans just accept Maduro's bullshit.[/QUOTE] Maduro spent alot of money on anti-riot equipment, iirc; and the people who went on the streets to protest got their shit smacked
[QUOTE=iRunner;50198948]Maduro spent alot of money on anti-riot equipment, iirc; and the people who went on the streets to protest got their shit smacked[/QUOTE] In our case the people protested and Ceausescu ordered the army to shoot them. The army refused to do it though and joined the revolution.
[QUOTE=Fantastical;50198988]In our case the people protested and Ceausescu ordered the army to shoot them. The army refused to do it though and joined the revolution.[/QUOTE] The army is saddly on maduro's side, so there isn't much to be done about it They've even raided classrooms and thrown tear gas grenades inside both private and public universities during protests
[QUOTE=iRunner;50199000]The army is saddly on maduro's side, so there isn't much to be done about it They've even raided classrooms and thrown tear gas grenades inside both private and public universities during protests[/QUOTE] Well shit, do you think Maduro will make life so hard that eventually people will find no other solution than armed insurrection? Or at least make people determined enough to protest in the millions and fight the police?
All this argument about capitalism vs. socialism is missing the point. Free-market economies (by which I mean business sectors, not national economies - there are non-free-market "economies" in every nation) gain efficiencies through exploitability. "Transporting goods" is a classic example - if you can get things from point A to point B better (faster, more reliably) than anyone else, you can make a TON of money, so a lot of different brains are focused on the task of doing it better. So in places where goods transport is a free market, you can get really, really good efficiency - a good product/service at a low cost. When you think about FedEx or UPS, they're doing a pretty phenomenal job. But you don't need a free market economy to get good results. Even in America, there are a lot of socialized services. Fire departments are typically socialized, and they do a perfectly fine job (unlike the privately-run fire departments of the Roman Empire, which were notorious). Roads are usually public services, and rarely inadequate when you consider the amount we spend, and just how massive the highway system is. With good management, a centrally-run economy can still work just fine. The danger under [I]both systems[/I] is that you will optimize towards the wrong thing. Police departments nationwide have optimized towards collecting fines and getting convictions, not the actual goal of reducing crime. NASA has optimized for "building rockets from parts made in each congressional district" instead of "building rockets that let us explore space better". On the private side, we have companies like Comcast, who have optimized on "making it as hard to leave their service as possible" instead of "providing faster data for lower cost", or Volkswagen, which optimized on "cheap ways to pass testing" instead of "cheap ways to comply with the law". The government of Venezuela has optimized for "taking as much money as possible for themselves". The same was an endemic problem in the Soviet Union. However, it has not been as much of a problem for many other highly-socialized economies, such as Norway. The key difference I can observe is [I]price for failure[/I]. Norway, as far as I can tell, is a very functional democracy. The leadership could change very easily if the population becomes dissatisfied, and it has done so many times within recent memory. So the leadership has a strong incentive to manage the socialized economies well (you can think of democracy as a free market economy for "leadership"). Venezuela is a far less functional democracy, and its leaders have very little incentive to run things properly, because it is very hard to remove them. The Soviet Union had an even less functional democracy, and so it was even more corruptible. [I]That[/I] is what the source of the problems is. And [I]that[/I] is why arguing about privatization versus socialism is completely missing the point of both.
[QUOTE=Fantastical;50199027]Well shit, do you think Maduro will make life so hard that eventually people will find no other solution than armed insurrection? Or at least make people determined enough to protest in the millions and fight the police?[/QUOTE] Harder than it is right now? I'm actually surprised suicide rates in this country aren't through the roof, considering how hard it is to keep a family, to find food, to be able to AFFORD food. And not only food, MEDICINE, even water's regulated for christ's sake What'll he take next? I doubt there's much people will do, those who were notorious for opposing the gov got either put in jail or killed; do you think anyone's got a spine to do something about it, with how ''well-armed'' (by that I mean, they're better off than, say, a civilian with a baseball bat) the army is, the only other people who are likely to have guns or any kind of weapon to stand up to anyone armed are the criminals themselves (which, surprise surprise, are also usually cops or any kind of security-related service workers)
[QUOTE=Sableye;50196638]ya but the trains run on time and the lights stay on in china, and they're communists [I]comparably worse than socialists[/I] if we're going to go down that route so your argument is flawed[/QUOTE] china is not communist, not by a long shot they have relatively free markets
[QUOTE=mr kjerr;50196570]oh sorry, you're right. DEMOCRATIC socialism at work[/QUOTE]What a completely stupid retort, all of Scandinavia could be considered "democratic socialist countries" and I can't think of a single instance where they've have issues with keeping the fucking lights on. Technically the United States is "democratic socialist" because we do have socialist institutions here and we've had them for centuries without issue, all the while we have a democratic process and indeed, we can directly influence said institutions with voting. For example: there's an upcoming vote regarding the local public school, a socialist institution by the way, and the local community is going to decide whether or not to accept a small tax increase to pay for what the school district wants. Be honest with me right now: are you just shitposting or what? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and I'm going to assume you're not actually a blithering fucking retard, so I'm trying to figure out what your angle is. [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50198706]When you put all your eggs in one basic [government control] and one egg is rotten [corruption] it makes the whole basket worthless.[/QUOTE]I'd say this would be equally an argument against keeping rotten eggs as much as it would be against a basket strategy. Having both a broken, corrupt government that's also in charge of everything is, as we can clearly see, an extremely bad situation that has no discourse for correction aside from armed revolution. Unfortunately Venezuelans are disarmed and the military is not on their side (as iRunner has pointed out) so that seems more or less impossible at this point; maybe if the country crumbles even further something could happen.
Venezuela sure is an interesting case to study and examine the circumstances and context that explain the country situation, but I'm more worried about the common people. What could the next goverment do to solve any problem the country suffers? You have a legacy that lasted years and must have an impact on every citizen, that could mean not everyone will follow the same solution to X problem and more issues could brew. Wish I knew more about this part of the world, it seems like a good topic to investigate
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