Israel would lift the blockade, if Gaza turned to peace.
186 replies, posted
The single point of Zionism was to create the state of Israel in Palestine.
Not really understand you Cassettic, Israel is as democratic as you get in the Middle East.
Could the the 5 or 6 people who are constantly arguing over the Israel/Palestine thing just get a life? It's an issue that I feel strongly about myself as well, but surely you guys have better things to do than argue on the internet?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22746280]I'm arguing about the past because others argue about the past.
[/QUOTE]
Is there a word for this logical fallacy other than "hypocrisy"? I'd call this guy a hypocrite but that term gets thrown around far too often.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;22746348]Could the the 5 or 6 people who are constantly arguing over the Israel/Palestine thing just get a life? It's an issue that I feel strongly about myself as well, but surely you guys have better things to do than argue on the internet?[/QUOTE]
dude, it's like 3 am and i have no work tomorrow, let me have my fun
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;22746348]Could the the 5 or 6 people who are constantly arguing over the Israel/Palestine thing just get a life? It's an issue that I feel strongly about myself as well, but surely you guys have better things to do than argue on the internet?[/QUOTE]
You're just upset that you didn't get in on this from the beginning.
[QUOTE=thisispain;22746313]what?
go look at that map again, nobody was fleeing out of their own will
that doesn't make any sense and i'd like to see a source of that[/QUOTE]
I think I get what you are saying, but no. The ones who didn't run while the fighting was taking place were annexed into Israel and given citizenship, might not be preferable but they aren't refugees. Some were kicked out but most of them fled the country possibly thinking other Arab nations would take the lands back shortly. It's not their own fault but Israel didn't make them refugees intentionaly.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22746692]I think I get what you are saying, but no. The ones who didn't run while the fighting was taking place were annexed into Israel and given citizenship, might not be preferable but they aren't refugees. Some were kicked out but most of them fled the country possibly thinking other Arab nations would take the lands back shortly. It's not their own fault but Israel didn't make them refugees intentionaly.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus[/url]
[QUOTE=Cassettic;22746257]They attacked Israel on the same principle that Israel was created, religion.
Expel religion or weaken it's grasp on the Middle Eastern region and you will have your peace.
If Israel want's to be a democracy they need to forget extreme Zionism, the days of manifest destiny are over don't make the same mistake the US did.[/QUOTE]
Israel wasn't created based on religion. It was created because the Jewish people are a nation, and deserve their own state.
Israel is a democracy, a democracy dedicated for one ethnic group, which means that ethnic group receives a few more rights, but that doesn't mean minorities don't receive basic rights or civil rights.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22746781]Israel wasn't created based on religion. It was created because the Jewish people are a nation, and deserve their own state.[/QUOTE]
yeah i'm not cool with being associated to israel, stop calling it a jewish state
deserve is a strong word too, deserve on what ground?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22746781]Israel is a democracy, a democracy dedicated for one ethnic group, which means that ethnic group receives a few more rights, but that doesn't mean minorities don't receive basic rights or civil rights.[/QUOTE]
it's not really a democracy if all citizens aren't equal before the law
Actually, Devodiere, they didn't receive citizenship. Only Arabs who lived in Israel's borders according to the UN plan received citizenship. It would have actually been better for the Arabs had Israel received bigger borders, since then there would be a lot more Arab citizens in Israel.
It's unfortunate that some of these Arabs were expelled and they can't return home now, but there's just no way for them to prove they were expelled or are descendants of people who got expelled. If Israel would allow them all to return, how would it know if those returning are actually refugees?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22746833]
It's unfortunate that some of these Arabs were expelled and they can't return home now, but there's just no way for them to prove they were expelled or are descendants of people who got expelled. If Israel would allow them all to return, how would it know if those returning are actually refugees?[/QUOTE]
they are registered, all their names are written down
[QUOTE=thisispain;22746829]yeah i'm not cool with being associated to israel, stop calling it a jewish state
deserve is a strong word too, deserve on what ground?
it's not really a democracy if all citizens aren't equal before the law[/QUOTE]
"Israel is a developed country and a representative democracy with a parliamentary system and universal suffrage."
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel[/url]
It's a Jewish state whether you like it or not:
"Israel is the world's only predominantly Jewish state".
From the same article.
[editline]01:53PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;22746846]they are registered, all their names are written down[/QUOTE]
Oh, didn't know about that.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22746865]"Israel is a developed country and a representative democracy with a parliamentary system and universal suffrage."[/QUOTE]
you see, you can call it that, but is it really that
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22746865]It's a Jewish state whether you like it or not:
[/QUOTE]
so it is a state that uses either religion or race as an excuse
you realize, this is akin to South Africa calling itself a white state.
[editline]03:53AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22746865]
Oh, didn't know about that.[/QUOTE]
shows how much you know
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22746865]
"Israel is the world's only predominantly Jewish state".
From the same article.
[/QUOTE]
While the population is that way,It is a secular state.
That's why many Haredi Jews don't support the state of Israel
[QUOTE=thisispain;22746886]you see, you can call it that, but is it really that[/quote]
It is that, show me how it isn't if you believe it's not.
[quote]so it is a state that uses either religion or race as an excuse
you realize, this is akin to South Africa calling itself a white state.[/quote]
It's not race or religion, it's nationality, just like how Germany is a German state, or France a French state, or Japan a Japanese state. Each nationality deserves their own state, and their respective state favor the nationality over the minorities.
Arabs in Israel live just like any citizen in any state, they can vote, form parties, enjoy all rights the state protects, and enjoy some civil rights the state doesn't even have to protect like "national insurance" (don't know the correct English term for this).
[quote]shows how much you know[/QUOTE]
You also didn't know that a lot of the refugees actually left on their own accord, without it being considered "fleeing".
[editline]02:02PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=toxicpiano;22746911]While the population is that way,It is a secular state.
That's why many Haredi Jews don't support the state of Israel[/QUOTE]
It's Jewish by ethnicity and there are a few laws regarding the religiousness, such as restrictions of hiring Jews for work on the Sabbath, and selling Pork in areas where there isn't a Christian minority.
[QUOTE=Penis Colada;22746085]yeah, they do, actually[/QUOTE]
if you wouldn't fight someone who comes into your country, takes over your home, and kills your family and friends then you're fucking pathetic
[editline]06:24AM[/editline]
[quote=BurnEmDown]Arabs in Israel live just like any citizen in any state, they can vote, form parties, enjoy all rights the state protects, and enjoy some civil rights the state doesn't even have to protect like "national insurance" (don't know the correct English term for this).[/quote]
hahahahahah
[QUOTE=JerryK;22747195]hahahahahah[/QUOTE]
I hope you're laughing at yourself. I personally know a few Arabic people in Israel who have citizenship and they have no problem with anything.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22747225]I hope you're laughing at yourself. I personally know a few Arabic people in Israel who have citizenship and they have no problem with anything.[/QUOTE]
yes, i'm sure you do
[QUOTE=JerryK;22747241]yes, i'm sure you do[/QUOTE]
I do.
I'm sure they would prefer Israel to be a 100% full democracy without giving Jews a few more rights and disconnecting it entirely from its Jewish roots, however we don't talk about it much.
[quote=thisispain;22746235]jdk is banned[/quote]
jdk?
This is gonna be another "What came first, the chicken or the egg?":
Isreal won't leave until there's peace, but to get peace Isreal must leave.
[quote=BurnEmDown]Source?[/quote]
[URL]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5162537.ece[/URL]
It just shows how much peace opportunities Israel had in the past by the Arabs, only to be rejected. The only nation is who responsible for the lack of peace is – Israel. Until Israel accepts peace, there will be no conflict.
[quote=BurnEmDown]
Most of them fled of their own will, under motivation from the Arab countries who attacked Israel. ("Hey, come to our lands for a few days so you won't be at risk, when we'll kick these damn Jews out you can come back to your lands safe and sound").[/quote][quote] You also didn't know that a lot of the refugees actually left on their own accord, without it being considered "fleeing". [/quote][quote=Deviodoire] I think I get what you are saying, but no. The ones who didn't run while the fighting was taking place were annexed into Israel and given citizenship, might not be preferable but they aren't refugees. Some were kicked out but most of them fled the country possibly thinking other Arab nations would take the lands back shortly. It's not their own fault but Israel didn't make them refugees intentionaly.[/quote]
Ah, the classic Zionist myth “The Palestinians left on their own from the calls from the neighboring Arab countries”.
[release]
The [B]1948 Palestinian exodus (Arabic: الهجرة الفلسطينية‎, al-Hijra al-Filasṭīnīya)[/B], also known as Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, an-Nakbah), meaning the "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm",[1] occurred when between 650,000 and 750,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled from their homes by Yishuv or Israeli forces, during the creation of the state of Israel and the civil war that preceded it.[2][/release]
[I]Had such a blanket order (or series of orders) been given, it would have found an echo in the thousands of documents produced by the Haganah's Intelligence Service, the IDF Intelligence Service, the Jewish Agency's Political Department Arab Division, the Foreign Ministry Middle East Affairs Department; or in the memoranda and dispatches of the various British and American diplomatic posts in the area (in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa, Amman, Beirut, Damascus, and Cairo); or in the various radio monitoring services (such as the BBC's). Any or all of these would have produced reports, memoranda, or correspondence referring to the Arab order and quoting from it. But no such reference to or quotation from such an order or series of orders exists in the contemporary documentation. This documentation, it should be noted, includes daily, almost hourly, monitoring of Arab radio broadcasts, the Arab press inside and outside Palestine, and statements by the Arab and Palestinian Arab leaders. (Tikkun, Jan/Feb 1990, p80) [/I]
In "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", Morris also notes Haganah (military wing of the Jewish leadership during the British rule over Palestine) intelligence reports from May 5-6 referring to a Jordanian campaign calling for the Palestinians to stay put and for those who left to return. Other documents describe muftis urging their populations to hold their ground and even threatening those who leave with punishments.
People who use the term "Zionist" really annoy me. It's one of those words that really invalidates everything you say from there on.
It's like a politician who uses the words "family values". They almost immediately lose my vote at that point.
[QUOTE=starpluck;22747928][URL]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5162537.ece[/URL][/quote]
I asked for a source to the claim that Israel refused this deal.
[quote]It just shows how much peace opportunities Israel had in the past by the Arabs, only to be rejected. The only nation is who responsible for the lack of peace is – Israel. Until Israel accepts peace, there will be no conflict.
Ah, the classic Zionist myth “The Palestinians left on their own from the calls from the neighboring Arab countries”.
[release]
The [B]1948 Palestinian exodus (Arabic: الهجرة الفلسطينية‎, al-Hijra al-Filasṭīnīya)[/B], also known as Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, an-Nakbah), meaning the "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm",[1] occurred when between 650,000 and 750,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled from their homes by Yishuv or Israeli forces, during the creation of the state of Israel and the civil war that preceded it.[2][/release]
[I]Had such a blanket order (or series of orders) been given, it would have found an echo in the thousands of documents produced by the Haganah's Intelligence Service, the IDF Intelligence Service, the Jewish Agency's Political Department Arab Division, the Foreign Ministry Middle East Affairs Department; or in the memoranda and dispatches of the various British and American diplomatic posts in the area (in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa, Amman, Beirut, Damascus, and Cairo); or in the various radio monitoring services (such as the BBC's). Any or all of these would have produced reports, memoranda, or correspondence referring to the Arab order and quoting from it. But no such reference to or quotation from such an order or series of orders exists in the contemporary documentation. This documentation, it should be noted, includes daily, almost hourly, monitoring of Arab radio broadcasts, the Arab press inside and outside Palestine, and statements by the Arab and Palestinian Arab leaders. (Tikkun, Jan/Feb 1990, p80) [/I]
In "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", Morris also notes Haganah (military wing of the Jewish leadership during the British rule over Palestine) intelligence reports from May 5-6 referring to a Jordanian campaign calling for the Palestinians to stay put and for those who left to return. Other documents describe muftis urging their populations to hold their ground and even threatening those who leave with punishments.[/QUOTE]
"Between December 1947 and March 1948, around 100,000 Palestinian Arabs fled. Among them were many from the higher and middle classes from the cities, who left voluntarily, expecting to return when the Arab states took control of the country.[9]".
It's not a myth, but the number isn't as high as I thought.
[QUOTE=JerryK;22747241]yes, i'm sure you do[/QUOTE]
Either trolling, or an idiot.
If you don't think Arab within Israel live perfectly fine - you're an idiot and have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
[QUOTE=JerryK;22747241]yes, i'm sure you do[/QUOTE]
Why are you doubting him? He lives in Israel!
Palestinian here. My grandfather was forced out of his home in Haifa, and my other grandparents forced out of their homes in Nablus. We did not flee voluntarily, but went over to Jordan who very generously gave us citizenship. Everything about Arabs being the reason why there's no peace is absolute bullshit. After all, it's the winners who write history.
[QUOTE=Conspiracy;22748181]Palestinian here. My grandfather was forced out of his home in Haifa, and my other grandparents forced out of their homes in Nablus. We did not flee voluntarily, but went over to Jordan who very generously gave us citizenship. Everything about Arabs being the reason why there's no peace is absolute bullshit. After all, it's the winners who write history.[/QUOTE]
Israel didn't win, UN gave them.
Those peace deals, Israel isn't stupid. Due to terrorist and extremist groups arising from everywhere and Arabs having a tendancy to call peace then come back when they gather their forces, there's not a lot of point to a temporary peace deal. It doesn't resolve the issue and there will be more war inevitably, likely with higher casualties. While Israel would prefer their own people not killed and the only foolproof way to do so is peace, they know that it will not last and more people will die.
While Israel is not doing anything to mend relations, condemning them for not taking pointless truces isn't helping either.
[editline]11:10PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;22748322]Israel didn't win, UN gave them.[/QUOTE]
Irrelevant. The Victors write history is a bullshit statement and he never made any point, just told an anecdote.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22748374]Those peace deals, Israel isn't stupid. Due to terrorist and extremist groups arising from everywhere and Arabs having a tendancy to call peace then come back when they gather their forces, there's not a lot of point to a temporary peace deal. It doesn't resolve the issue and there will be more war inevitably, likely with higher casualties. While Israel would prefer their own people not killed and the only foolproof way to do so is peace, they know that it will not last and more people will die.
While Israel is not doing anything to mend relations, condemning them for not taking pointless truces isn't helping either.
[editline]11:10PM[/editline]
Irrelevant. The Victors write history is a bullshit statement and he never made any point, just told an anecdote.[/QUOTE]
You're going to tell me Israel was justified in sending in troops into Gaza, destroying homes, schools and mosques hoping that despite all of the civilian deaths a few terrorists would die? Not just that, but now they're depriving them of food, water, and medicine until they comply to exactly what Israel wants. Egypt is now making deals with Israel to build an underground steel wall to block off ANY food/water from coming into Gaza. You might be saying, what about the weapons? What's a more civilized solution if you had to pick from
a) Giving them a little bit of gunfire, that never killed that many people anyway. Look up your statistics on the Israeli casualties in comparison to the Palestinian casualties
b) Letting the fuckers starve to death and sound like we had a reason to.
I'm saying with America behind Israel, no matter what they will always spew out some bullshit that will make them sound like they should have killed that many people. You don't have to believe me, I know this first hand. I've had relatives killed, I've had friend's relatives killed, my mother's cousin was shot at a checkpoint because they suspected he had links with Hamas. Which weren't justified, by the way, nor was he carrying a weapon on him of any sort. Nor did they take him to court. Just killed him.
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