• Israel would lift the blockade, if Gaza turned to peace.
    186 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22746781]Israel wasn't created based on religion. It was created because the Jewish people are a nation, and deserve their own state. Israel is a democracy, a democracy dedicated for one ethnic group, which means that ethnic group receives a few more rights, but that doesn't mean minorities don't receive basic rights or civil rights.[/QUOTE] Do you not understand how fucked up that logic is?
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;22748601]Do you not understand how fucked up that logic is?[/QUOTE] No, please educate me.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22748677]No, please educate me.[/QUOTE] No ethnic group deserves it's own nation. Any country that bases it's government on religious or racial grounds is fucked. You can't call it a democracy when you say it's dedicated to one ethnic group. That's like calling all those shitty muslim theocracies democratic.
[QUOTE=Conspiracy;22748449]You're going to tell me Israel was justified in sending in troops into Gaza, destroying homes, schools and mosques hoping that despite all of the civilian deaths a few terrorists would die? Not just that, but now they're depriving them of food, water, and medicine until they comply to exactly what Israel wants. Egypt is now making deals with Israel to build an underground steel wall to block off ANY food/water from coming into Gaza. You might be saying, what about the weapons? What's a more civilized solution if you had to pick from a) Giving them a little bit of gunfire, that never killed that many people anyway. Look up your statistics on the Israeli casualties in comparison to the Palestinian casualties b) Letting the fuckers starve to death and sound like we had a reason to. I'm saying with America behind Israel, no matter what they will always spew out some bullshit that will make them sound like they should have killed that many people. You don't have to believe me, I know this first hand. I've had relatives killed, I've had friend's relatives killed, my mother's cousin was shot at a checkpoint because they suspected he had links with Hamas. Which weren't justified, by the way, nor was he carrying a weapon on him of any sort. Nor did they take him to court. Just killed him.[/QUOTE] What you're doing is complaining about Israel defending their civilians. It's like complaining to the allies that innocent Germans died in WWII. It's the lesser evil, and it's not the allies fault for having to fight the axis, it's the axis' fault for starting the war and being overall evil. If the Palestinians don't want to suffer, they shouldn't send rockets at Israel, or elect a group which sends rockets at Israel to be their government.
[QUOTE=GunFox;22747981]People who use the term "Zionist" really annoy me. It's one of those words that really invalidates everything you say from there on. It's like a politician who uses the words "family values". They almost immediately lose my vote at that point.[/QUOTE] Why.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;22748736]No ethnic group deserves it's own nation. Any country that bases it's government on religious or racial grounds is fucked. You can't call it a democracy when you say it's dedicated to one ethnic group. That's like calling all those shitty muslim theocracies democratic.[/QUOTE] Notice that I said nationality, not race or religion. Currently most countries in the world are nation-states, meaning that they're a state dedicated to one nation, like France, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Japan, China, Russia, Norway, and Israel. Muslim theocracies devote themselves to a single religion, not a nation. For example Egypt treats all Muslims the same, whether they are Arab or not, AFAIK.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22748019]I asked for a source to the claim that Israel refused this deal.[/quote] Do you see 1967 borders? [editline]02:47PM[/editline] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22748740]What you're doing is complaining about Israel defending their civilians. It's like complaining to the allies that innocent Germans died in WWII. It's the lesser evil, and it's not the allies fault for having to fight the axis, it's the axis' fault for starting the war and being overall evil. If the Palestinians don't want to suffer, they shouldn't send rockets at Israel, or elect a group which sends rockets at Israel to be their government.[/QUOTE] Because Palestine is Nazi Germany and Israel is the allies? :irony:
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22748816]Notice that I said nationality, not race or religion. Currently most countries in the world are nation-states, meaning that they're a state dedicated to one nation, like France, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Japan, China, Russia, Norway, and Israel. Muslim theocracies devote themselves to a single religion, not a nation. For example Egypt treats all Muslims the same, whether they are Arab or not, AFAIK.[/QUOTE] The Jewish people aren't a nation though? And you also said, that it's a democracy dedicated to one ethnic group. Like, you can't use those countries as an example, they're all made up of loads of different nationalities and races and religious backgrounds. Israel is a Jewish nation for Jews.
[QUOTE=Conspiracy;22748181]Palestinian here. My grandfather was forced out of his home in Haifa, and my other grandparents forced out of their homes in Nablus. We did not flee voluntarily, but went over to Jordan who very generously gave us citizenship. Everything about Arabs being the reason why there's no peace is absolute bullshit. After all, it's the winners who write history.[/QUOTE] We have a lot in common. :)
[QUOTE=starpluck;22748821]Do you see 1967 borders?[/quote] I'm assuming you mean pre-67 borders, and no. But I wanted the source to their denial because I'm sure there will be reason why Israel declined the offer. [quote]Because Palestine is Nazi Germany and Israel is the allies? :irony:[/QUOTE] Considering they're the aggressors who just won't stop launching rockets and sending suicide bombers, yes.
[QUOTE=starpluck;22748801]Why.[/QUOTE] I don't rightly know. Gives off a very "tinfoil hat" kind of feeling. "ohhh those zionists...you know...they're gonna...they're gonna" They're gonna what? Zionism is over. The Jews own Israel. Muslims lost. Cry about it.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;22748860]The Jewish people aren't a nation though? And you also said, that it's a democracy dedicated to one ethnic group. Like, you can't use those countries as an example, they're all made up of loads of different nationalities and races and religious backgrounds. Israel is a Jewish nation for Jews.[/QUOTE] The Jews are an ethnic group, and Zionists are the nationalists amongst them. Israel is also made up of loads of different nationalities and races and religious backgrounds, for example the Arabs, the Druze, the Sarmatians.
[QUOTE=GunFox;22748902]I don't rightly know. Gives off a very "tinfoil hat" kind of feeling. "ohhh those zionists...you know...they're gonna...they're gonna" They're gonna what? Zionism is over. The Jews own Israel. Muslims lost. Cry about it.[/QUOTE] Just like calling people anti-semites [editline]01:55AM[/editline] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22748911]The Jews are an ethnic group, and Zionists are the nationalists amongst them. Israel is also made up of loads of different nationalities and races and religious backgrounds, for example the Arabs, the Druze, the Sarmatians.[/QUOTE] The difference is though, you said yourself, that the Israeli democracy is dedicated solely to the Jewish ethnic group and therefore they get more rights. That is not right at all.
[QUOTE=GunFox;22748902]I don't rightly know. Gives off a very "tinfoil hat" kind of feeling. "ohhh those zionists...you know...they're gonna...they're gonna" They're gonna what? Zionism is over. The Jews own Israel. Muslims lost. Cry about it.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism[/url] Still is a political movement, and is used self-descriptively by many people. It can be used as a term like that, but there are still people who are and who actively call themselves Zionists.
[QUOTE=GunFox;22748902]I don't rightly know. Gives off a very "tinfoil hat" kind of feeling. "ohhh those zionists...you know...they're gonna...they're gonna" They're gonna what? Zionism is over. The Jews own Israel. Muslims lost. Cry about it.[/QUOTE] You're pretty weird GunFox.
Israel has to stop going "durr hurr rockets". They killed more people on the flotilla than have been killed in all Hamas rocket attacks since 2008. There's nothing equal about the respective impacts of the blockade and rocket attacks.
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;22748947][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism[/url] Still is a political movement, and is used self-descriptively by many people. It can be used as a term like that, but there are still people who are and who actively call themselves Zionists.[/QUOTE] I'm aware of it. It also does little more than maintain the current position and support Israel. They have accomplished their primary objective. Not that they really had a damn thing to do with it.
[QUOTE=Conspiracy;22748449]You're going to tell me Israel was justified in sending in troops into Gaza, destroying homes, schools and mosques hoping that despite all of the civilian deaths a few terrorists would die? Not just that, but now they're depriving them of food, water, and medicine until they comply to exactly what Israel wants. Egypt is now making deals with Israel to build an underground steel wall to block off ANY food/water from coming into Gaza. You might be saying, what about the weapons? What's a more civilized solution if you had to pick from a) Giving them a little bit of gunfire, that never killed that many people anyway. Look up your statistics on the Israeli casualties in comparison to the Palestinian casualties b) Letting the fuckers starve to death and sound like we had a reason to. I'm saying with America behind Israel, no matter what they will always spew out some bullshit that will make them sound like they should have killed that many people. You don't have to believe me, I know this first hand. I've had relatives killed, I've had friend's relatives killed, my mother's cousin was shot at a checkpoint because they suspected he had links with Hamas. Which weren't justified, by the way, nor was he carrying a weapon on him of any sort. Nor did they take him to court. Just killed him.[/QUOTE] Uh, ok. I think you just raged all over your keyboard and didn't even read or even look at what I said aside from not agreeing with you. There is just so much wrong with that it's hard to point everything out. Mostly that I never said anything you accused me of and that every single point you made is irrelevant, exaggerated, anecdotal, demonising, unsourced and generalising. I would honestly try and argue with you if my response wouldn't be 10x longer than yours.
[QUOTE=starpluck;22748964]You're pretty weird GunFox.[/QUOTE] This is true.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;22748931]Just like calling people anti-semites [editline]01:55AM[/editline] The difference is though, you said yourself, that the Israeli democracy is dedicated solely to the Jewish ethnic group and therefore they get more rights. That is not right at all.[/QUOTE] It's not dedicated solely to it, it's not like the Arabs get nothing, it's just dedicated more to it, as in, the Jews get extra rights that most citizens in most countries don't get, for example any Jew or a descendant of a Jew can gain Israeli citizenship very, very easily. Others can also get citizenship, but it takes more time, like all other countries' citizenship approval time.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22748986]It's not dedicated solely to it, it's not like the Arabs get nothing, it's just dedicated more to it, as in, the Jews get extra rights that most citizens in most countries don't get, for example any Jew or a descendant of a Jew can gain Israeli citizenship very, very easily. Others can also get citizenship, but it takes more time, like all other countries' citizenship approval time.[/QUOTE] And that seems dandy to you?
Well it's different, but hardly discriminatory. It's closer to affirmative action than seperate drinking fountains.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;22749017]And that seems dandy to you?[/QUOTE] Yup. [QUOTE=Devodiere;22749030]Well it's different, but hardly discriminatory. It's closer to affirmative action than seperate drinking fountains.[/QUOTE] What?
It's not putting one group down, it's lifting another up. Women are given more opportunities in the workplace, african americans are given special scholarships, not really putting one group down but still in an uneven stance.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22749034]Yup. What?[/QUOTE] He means like, better for some as opposed to worse for some.
There are roughly 15 million Jews left. There are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. And out of that 1 billion, there is gonna be a lot higher percentage of extremists than out of that 15 million. That percentage, which equates to a high number (probably in the hundreds of thousands, at most a million), means that there are hundreds of thousands of extremists out to kill everybody in Israel. Stop viewing Israel as a big, oppressive government. They are simply protecting their citizens, albeit in a harsh way. Do you forget that without all these walls, suicide bombers and terrorists can move freely into Israel, and kill its citizens. Both sides have their flaws, both sides have their good sides. Stop viewing only Israel's flaws, and viewing Palestine's good side.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22749055]It's not putting one group down, it's lifting another up. Women are given more opportunities in the workplace, african americans are given special scholarships, not really putting one group down but still in an uneven stance.[/QUOTE] Ah yes, basically this. The Jewish state seeks to repair the damage caused to Jews during the last 2000 years, just like how there are laws in certain countries which help Women or blacks. There are still laws in Israel which are in favor of Arabs, actually. For example there's a law that a certain percentage of students in universities must be Arab. I'm not sure however what's the exact number, somewhere around 5% I believe.
Actually Israel never really accepted it or rejected it. Which pretty much means they declined it. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative?wasRedirected=true[/url]
[QUOTE=Uberman77883;22749070]There are roughly 15 million Jews left. There are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. And out of that 1 billion, there is gonna be a lot higher percentage of extremists than out of that 15 million. That percentage, which equates to a high number (probably in the hundreds of thousands, at most a million), means that there are hundreds of thousands of extremists out to kill everybody in Israel. Stop viewing Israel as a big, oppressive government. They are simply protecting their citizens, albeit in a harsh way. Do you forget that without all these walls, suicide bombers and terrorists can move freely into Israel, and kill its citizens. Both sides have their flaws, both sides have their good sides. Stop viewing only Israel's flaws, and viewing Palestine's good side.[/QUOTE] The number of Muslims in the world is irrelevant. There is a lot less Palestinians and they're the ones being oppressed, not Islam.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;22749057]He means like, better for some as opposed to worse for some.[/QUOTE] Well technically but it's more accurate to think of it as better for some and normal for others. Non-Jews don't really lose anything from it so it's not reallt discriminatory.
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