• Israel would lift the blockade, if Gaza turned to peace.
    186 replies, posted
[QUOTE=starpluck;22749098]Actually Israel never really accepted it or rejected it. Which pretty much means they declined it. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative?wasRedirected=true[/url][/QUOTE] That's regarding the 2002 peace plan. What about the reaction to Obama's plan? [editline]05:12PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Lachz0r;22749101]The number of Muslims in the world is irrelevant. There is a lot less Palestinians and they're the ones being oppressed, not Islam.[/QUOTE] Actually it was said here that there are about 7 million refugees. And there's 1.5 million in Gaza, and I think almost 3 million in the West Bank, and another million in Israel. That would put it at 12.5 million.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;22749101]The number of Muslims in the world is irrelevant. There is a lot less Palestinians and they're the ones being oppressed, not Islam.[/QUOTE] Its not about the Palestinians, its about extremists out to kill Israel in general. I agree that the Palestinians should stop being oppressed, but until both sides agree to stop fighting, one side with provoke the other in an infinite loop of war.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22746781]Israel wasn't created based on religion. It was created because the Jewish people are a nation, and deserve their own state.[/QUOTE] So... All those Germans in Austria, the Sudetenland and Poland?
[QUOTE=lazyguy;22749241]So... All those Germans in Austria, the Sudetenland and Poland?[/QUOTE] What about them?
Yeah uh it's te same one. In November 2008, The Sunday Times reported that American president-elect Barack Obama is going to support the plan, saying to Mahmoud Abbas during his July 2008 visit to the Middle East that "The Israelis would be crazy not to accept this initiative. It would give them peace with the Muslim world from Indonesia to Morocco."[82
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22749254]What about them?[/QUOTE] They were only given their own state under Nazi Germany. Zionism is Jewish Nazism.
So what was the Israeli reaction to Obama's support of the plan, if he proposed it to Israel? [editline]05:22PM[/editline] [QUOTE=lazyguy;22749269]They were only given their own state under Nazi Germany. Zionism is Jewish Nazism.[/QUOTE] Zionism = Jewish nationalism. If they wanted to be a part of Germany, they could have moved there, just like how many Jews immigrate to Israel, because they want to be a part of Israel. Nazi Germany however, claimed that the lands were a part of Germany, and that's why they annexed them. Your example is quite unrelated and different.
[QUOTE=lazyguy;22749269]They were only given their own state under Nazi Germany. Zionism is Jewish Nazism.[/QUOTE] I'm still trying to figure out the flimsy connection you made there. Because under the Nazis they got their own state, that means that anyone who gets their own state because of similar reasons is a Nazi? Yeah it still make no sense.
Flat out rejection. [url]http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3429705,00.html[/url]
[QUOTE=starpluck;22749381]Flat out rejection. [url]http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3429705,00.html[/url][/QUOTE] [release]"Only if Hamas changes its policy from the core, reality will change, but the situation now is intolerable. Hamas fires missiles, the world transfers money and the Palestinian population pays the price. Israel will always prefer to sit around the negotiations table than to be in the battle field." "The withdrawal from Gaza two years ago proved that any Israeli withdrawal – particularly a unilateral one – does not advance peace, but rather establishes a terror base for radical Islam. I am in favor of economic cooperation and advancing regional initiatives. Economy will be a leverage for peace," the opposition leader said.[/release] BTW that's from 2007, before Obama.
Except for the fact that during the six month lull just a year later, Hamas actually did stop the rocket attacks as agreed, no progress was made then, either. These rocket (not missile, big distinction) attacks are their only way of lashing out at what they see as the entity of their oppression. (Not saying it's the best thing to do, or even a good thing to do, before you go accusing me of supporting terrorists.) Also, I don't think there's been any official reaction to this yet. I also believe that this is probably just rhetoric.
They should just go full scale nuclear war over there. Can't wait till Iran gets their shit together and sends the holy city sky high so we don't have to listen to this bullshit any longer
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22745840]Because Gilad Shalit wasn't released. Also, the past is different from the present.[/QUOTE] If one wishes to know the future one must know the past.
what a joke BurmEmDown, do you actually believe Israel on this?
[QUOTE=DarkSpider;22749956]They should just go full scale nuclear war over there. Can't wait till Iran gets their shit together and sends the holy city sky high so we don't have to listen to this bullshit any longer[/QUOTE]I am eternally thankful people like you will never hold a position higher than McDonald's employee.
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;22749475]Except for the fact that during the six month lull just a year later, Hamas actually did stop the rocket attacks as agreed, no progress was made then, either. These rocket (not missile, big distinction) attacks are their only way of lashing out at what they see as the entity of their oppression. (Not saying it's the best thing to do, or even a good thing to do, before you go accusing me of supporting terrorists.) Also, I don't think there's been any official reaction to this yet. I also believe that this is probably just rhetoric.[/QUOTE] Hamas didn't release Gilad Shalit though, which was a part of the cease-fire agreement, and rockets were still fired by independent crazy guys, and Hamas had the responsibility to stop them. [QUOTE=bravehat;22750206]If one wishes to know the future one must know the past.[/QUOTE] Yes but what I mean is that when mistakes are made people learn from them and don't make these mistakes again (often).
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22751852]Hamas didn't release Gilad Shalit though, which was a part of the cease-fire agreement, and rockets were still fired by independent crazy guys, and Hamas had the responsibility to stop them. Yes but what I mean is that when mistakes are made people learn from them and don't make these mistakes again (often).[/QUOTE] Nah, History always repeats. Always.
[QUOTE=bravehat;22751916]Nah, History always repeats. Always.[/QUOTE] True. This is why Israel won't pull out of the West Bank just yet. [editline]07:33PM[/editline] Don't wanna open new thread so soon: [url]http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3907978,00.html[/url] [release]Cabinet: All non-military items can enter Gaza freely Israel approves easing of blockade on Hamas-ruled territory; replaces list of allowed items with list of banned goods, which are limited to weapons, materials that have military uses Attila Somfalvi Published: 06.20.10, 18:53 / Israel News Israel is easing the blockade of Gaza by replacing a list of allowed items with a list of banned goods limited to weapons and materials deemed to have military uses. Israel's Security Cabinet approved on Sunday the new system, according to which practically all non-military items can enter Gaza freely. For the past three years, Israel has allowed only basic humanitarian supplies in. No new list was released. Cabinet issued a statement saying Israel would "expand the transfer of construction materials designated for projects that have been approved by the Palestinian Authority, including schools, health institutions, water, sanitation and more – as well as (projects) that are under international supervision and residential construction projects, such as the (project) being initiated by the UN in Khan Younis. "Israel plans to expedite the approval of such projects while following the standard procedures," the statement read. Regarding the transfer of goods, it was reported, "The extent of activity at the land crossing active today will be expanded in order to significantly increase the volume of goods that will be transferred through them and in order to expand economic activity." It was also decided, "In case the need arises for an additional increase in crossing capacity, Israel will open additional land crossings only after its security demands are first met." Regarding cargo being transferred into the Strip via the sea, it was reported, "Israel will continue to examine goods at Ashdod Port with the utmost possible efficiency." "Israel will also ease the transfer of people for humanitarian and medical reasons, as well as international raid workers recognized by the Israeli government. As conditions improve, Israel will consider additional measures to make the movement of people within Gaza easier," it was reported. 'The world must condemn Hamas' At the end of the list of easements to be made, the cabinet members leveled criticism at the international community for its treatment for events in Gaza in recent years. "The current defense regime towards Gaza will remain in place. Israel again emphasizes that, together with the US, the EU, and other countries, it views Hamas as a terrorist organization. The international community must insist with determination that all the conditions towards Hamas of the Mideast Quartet be met. We call upon this group to take action to put an end to the smuggling of weapons ad military-support supplies into the Gaza Strip." At the end of the document, the cabinet mentioned Israel's captive soldier in the Gaza Strip: "Gilad Shalit has been in Hamas captivity for nearly four years. The international community must join Israel in sharply condemning his captors and must significantly increase efforts for his immediate release." An Israeli raid on a flotilla carrying supplies and pro-Palestinian activists on May 31 has focused attention on the blockade and led to demands to lift or ease it. Israeli commandos killed nine activists. Last week Israel announced its decision to ease the blockade on Gaza. The United States and the UN praised the measure but called on the Jewish State to further extend the list of goods it allows into the Hamas-ruled territory. Hamas, for its part, dismissed the new measures as trivial and "media propaganda." Sami Abu Zuhri, a spokesman for the Islamist group, said, "What is needed is a complete lifting of the blockade. Goods and people must be free to enter and leave. Gaza especially needs construction material, which must be allowed to come in without restrictions."[/release]
Israel needs to get rid of Hamas
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22752028]True. This is why Israel won't pull out of the West Bank just yet. [editline]07:33PM[/editline] Don't wanna open new thread so soon: [url]http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3907978,00.html[/url] [release]Cabinet: All non-military items can enter Gaza freely Israel approves easing of blockade on Hamas-ruled territory; replaces list of allowed items with list of banned goods, which are limited to weapons, materials that have military uses Attila Somfalvi Published: 06.20.10, 18:53 / Israel News Israel is easing the blockade of Gaza by replacing a list of allowed items with a list of banned goods limited to weapons and materials deemed to have military uses. Israel's Security Cabinet approved on Sunday the new system, according to which practically all non-military items can enter Gaza freely. For the past three years, Israel has allowed only basic humanitarian supplies in. No new list was released. Cabinet issued a statement saying Israel would "expand the transfer of construction materials designated for projects that have been approved by the Palestinian Authority, including schools, health institutions, water, sanitation and more – as well as (projects) that are under international supervision and residential construction projects, such as the (project) being initiated by the UN in Khan Younis. "Israel plans to expedite the approval of such projects while following the standard procedures," the statement read. Regarding the transfer of goods, it was reported, "The extent of activity at the land crossing active today will be expanded in order to significantly increase the volume of goods that will be transferred through them and in order to expand economic activity." It was also decided, "In case the need arises for an additional increase in crossing capacity, Israel will open additional land crossings only after its security demands are first met." Regarding cargo being transferred into the Strip via the sea, it was reported, "Israel will continue to examine goods at Ashdod Port with the utmost possible efficiency." "Israel will also ease the transfer of people for humanitarian and medical reasons, as well as international raid workers recognized by the Israeli government. As conditions improve, Israel will consider additional measures to make the movement of people within Gaza easier," it was reported. 'The world must condemn Hamas' At the end of the list of easements to be made, the cabinet members leveled criticism at the international community for its treatment for events in Gaza in recent years. "The current defense regime towards Gaza will remain in place. Israel again emphasizes that, together with the US, the EU, and other countries, it views Hamas as a terrorist organization. The international community must insist with determination that all the conditions towards Hamas of the Mideast Quartet be met. We call upon this group to take action to put an end to the smuggling of weapons ad military-support supplies into the Gaza Strip." At the end of the document, the cabinet mentioned Israel's captive soldier in the Gaza Strip: "Gilad Shalit has been in Hamas captivity for nearly four years. The international community must join Israel in sharply condemning his captors and must significantly increase efforts for his immediate release." An Israeli raid on a flotilla carrying supplies and pro-Palestinian activists on May 31 has focused attention on the blockade and led to demands to lift or ease it. Israeli commandos killed nine activists. Last week Israel announced its decision to ease the blockade on Gaza. The United States and the UN praised the measure but called on the Jewish State to further extend the list of goods it allows into the Hamas-ruled territory. Hamas, for its part, dismissed the new measures as trivial and "media propaganda." Sami Abu Zuhri, a spokesman for the Islamist group, said, "What is needed is a complete lifting of the blockade. Goods and people must be free to enter and leave. Gaza especially needs construction material, which must be allowed to come in without restrictions."[/release][/QUOTE] Fucking finally, doggonit. At least something good came out of the Flotilla incident, and the deaths of those 9 peace activists will not be in vain. Their goal was to end the blockade, and it looks like they accomplished it.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22746781]Israel wasn't created based on religion. It was created because the Jewish people are a nation, and deserve their own state. Israel is a democracy, a democracy dedicated for one ethnic group, which means that ethnic group receives a few more rights, but that doesn't mean minorities don't receive basic rights or civil rights.[/QUOTE] Do you even listen to what you are supporting? You can't have a democracy dedicated for one ethnic group it just isn't right. You're making Israel sound more and more like Nazi germany, what if the United States was "dedicated" to the white race?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22746961] You also didn't know that a lot of the refugees actually left on their own accord, without it being considered "fleeing". [/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus[/url]
[QUOTE=Cassettic;22756157]Do you even listen to what you are supporting? You can't have a democracy dedicated for one ethnic group it just isn't right. You're making Israel sound more and more like Nazi germany, what if the United States was "dedicated" to the white race?[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Political_life[/url] :frog: [editline]10:05PM[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;22756166][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus[/url][/QUOTE] Yes, many expelled or fled, but many left on their own accord with motivation from Jordan or Egypt or other counties.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22756176][URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Political_life[/URL] :frog:[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Wikipedia]Many Arab citizens feel that the state, as well as society at large, not only actively limits them to second-class citizenship, but treats them as enemies, impacting their perception of the [I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_jure"]de jure[/URL][/I] versus [I]de facto[/I] quality of their citizenship.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#cite_note-ynetnews1-124"][125][/URL] The joint document [I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Future_Vision_of_the_Palestinian_Arabs_in_Israel"]The Future Vision of the Palestinian Arabs in Israel[/URL],[/I] asserts: "Defining the Israeli State as a Jewish State and exploiting democracy in the service of its Jewishness excludes us, and creates tension between us and the nature and essence of the State." The document explains that by definition the "Jewish State" concept is based on ethnically preferential treatment towards Jews enshrined in immigration (the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return"]Law of Return[/URL]) and land policy (the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund"]Jewish National Fund[/URL]), and calls for the establishment of minority rights protections enforced by an independent anti-discrimination commission.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#cite_note-125"][126][/URL]"[/quote] What is your point exactly? Keep supporting apartheid.
[QUOTE=GunFox;22747981]People who use the term "Zionist" really annoy me. It's one of those words that really invalidates everything you say from there on. It's like a politician who uses the words "family values". They almost immediately lose my vote at that point.[/QUOTE] You can't refuse to acknowledge an accepted term just because it has developed negative connotations
^ This I generally use the term Zionist to describe anyone who supports the expansion of Israel throughout the Middle East.
[QUOTE=Cassettic;22756692]^ This I generally use the term Zionist to describe anyone who supports the expansion of Israel throughout the Middle East.[/QUOTE] No, Zionism is Israeli nationalism. It is just like saying that French nationalism supports France expansion in Europe.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22758007]No, Zionism is Israeli nationalism. It is just like saying that French nationalism supports France expansion in Europe.[/QUOTE] Yes and Israeli nationalism today calls for the expansion of it's people into the West Bank and Gaza.
[QUOTE=Cassettic;22756361]What is your point exactly? Keep supporting apartheid.[/QUOTE] If Arabs want Israel to not be a Jewish state, then I want Germany to stop being a German state, France to stop being a French state, Japan to stop being a Japanese state, Spain to stop being a Spanish state, Portugal to stop being a Portuguese state, Italy to stop being an Italian state, Russia to stop being a Russian state, and south Korea to stop being a Korean state. [editline]11:25PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Cassettic;22756361]What is your point exactly? Keep supporting apartheid.[/QUOTE] If Arabs want Israel to not be a Jewish state, then I want Germany to stop being a German state, France to stop being a French state, Japan to stop being a Japanese state, Spain to stop being a Spanish state, Portugal to stop being a Portuguese state, Italy to stop being an Italian state, Russia to stop being a Russian state, and south Korea to stop being a Korean state. Also Arab citizens of Israel can just move to another country if they hate it in Israel to much. [editline]11:25PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Cassettic;22758062]Yes and Israeli nationalism today calls for the expansion of it's people into the West Bank and Gaza.[/QUOTE] I'm an Israeli nationalist and I don't call for that.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22758072]If Arabs want Israel to not be a Jewish state, then I want Germany to stop being a German state, France to stop being a French state, Japan to stop being a Japanese state, Spain to stop being a Spanish state, Portugal to stop being a Portuguese state, Italy to stop being an Italian state, Russia to stop being a Russian state, and south Korea to stop being a Korean state. If Arabs want Israel to not be a Jewish state, then I want Germany to stop being a German state, France to stop being a French state, Japan to stop being a Japanese state, Spain to stop being a Spanish state, Portugal to stop being a Portuguese state, Italy to stop being an Italian state, Russia to stop being a Russian state, and south Korea to stop being a Korean state.[/QUOTE] Israel should stop being a Jewish state for the sole reason that Iran should stop being an Islamic Republic and America will never be a Christian nation. You're using the Jewish religion and conflating it with national identity thereby making the whole situation murky. When you make that "Israel is a Jewish state" argument, you sound no better than your theocratic mullah neighbors.
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