• Israel would lift the blockade, if Gaza turned to peace.
    186 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22772587]No, they were Arabs, just like any other Arab. You couldn't tell between an Arab living in Palestine or an Arab living in Jordan or Lebanon or Syria. Hell, Jordan is technically a Palestinian country, since they're a part of the British Mandate of Palestine. What makes Jordanians and Palestinians different? They were only considered different from 1968, when the Palestine National Charter coined the term, and decided that Palestinian would not mean "a person from Palestine, regardless of ethnicity or religion", but would specifically mean "those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father — whether in Palestine or outside it — is also a Palestinian.".[/QUOTE] With your logic, Sri Lankans, Pakistanis, Bengladeshis and Indians are all the group of people sharing similar languages dialects and cultures, because they all used to be part of the same country? Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and Palestinians are four completely different countries. There is a HUGE difference in the two. They were PALESTINIAN Arabs, Palestine may have been a British Mandate, but the Palestinian Arabs are just as native to the land as the Israelis are, and on those grounds should not be driven out like they don't belong and can be displaced anywhere else because they're Arab. Remember Arabic is only a language. Just because a few countries speak it doesn't mean they're the same thing. Down the line? I'm a descendant of the Romans, but during some migration my ancestors must have settled in some Arab Palestinian settlement, making them a group of people. Denying the existence of a Palestinian people is just ignorant. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people[/url]
[QUOTE=Conspiracy;22772875]With your logic, Sri Lankans, Pakistanis, Bengladeshis and Indians are all the same race of people sharing similar languages dialects and cultures, because they all used to be part of the same country? Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and Palestinians are four completely different countries. There is a HUGE difference in the two. They were PALESTINIAN Arabs, Palestine may have been a British Mandate, but the Palestinian Arabs are just as native to the land as the Israelis are, and on those grounds should not be driven out like they don't belong and can be displaced anywhere else because they're Arab. Remember Arabic is only a language. Just because a few countries speak it doesn't mean they're the same thing. Down the line? I'm a descendant of the Romans, but I was a[/QUOTE] "Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and Palestinians are four completely different countries." Palestine isn't a country, and those are nationalities, not countries. "Remember Arabic is only a language." It's also a culture, an ethnic group, and a nationality. Palestinian Arabs and Jordanian Arabs are the same, it's because the British wanted to give Israel to the Jews and the rest of the Palestinian mandate (Jordan) to the Arabs, that they are "divided", and they were divided at an arbitrary line, the Jordan river dividing between Israel and Jordan. Before the 1940's there was NOTHING different between an Arab from Palestine and an Arab from Jordan, except where they lived. The culture was the same, the language was the same, religion mostly, ancestors, whatever, it was all the same. It's like saying that a man from northern France is different from a man in southern France. There is no difference other than the area they live in. I'm not denying the existence of the Palestinian people, I'm denying they were considered Palestinians before '68.
[QUOTE=HellNaw;22772625]BurnEmDown, why even waste your time when Facepunch's full of faggots who dunno shit?[/QUOTE] Coming from the man who thinks Deans are good guitars. :downs:
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22772989]"Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and Palestinians are four completely different countries." Palestine isn't a country, and those are nationalities, not countries. "Remember Arabic is only a language." It's also a culture, an ethnic group, and a nationality. Palestinian Arabs and Jordanian Arabs are the same, it's because the British wanted to give Israel to the Jews and the rest of the Palestinian mandate (Jordan) to the Arabs, that they are "divided", and they were divided at an arbitrary line, the Jordan river dividing between Israel and Jordan. Before the 1940's there was NOTHING different between an Arab from Palestine and an Arab from Jordan, except where they lived. The culture was the same, the language was the same, religion mostly, ancestors, whatever, it was all the same. It's like saying that a man from northern France is different from a man in southern France. There is no difference other than the area they live in.[/QUOTE] Why 1968? I can go and find atleast a dozen statements from the 1940s recognizing the Arabs in Palestine as 'Palestinians' and not 'Arabs'
[QUOTE=Broseph_;22774245]Why 1968? I can go and find atleast a dozen statements from the 1940s recognizing the Arabs in Palestine as 'Palestinians' and not 'Arabs'[/QUOTE] Says so right here - [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#Etymology[/url] Last paragraph. At '48 Palestinian was pretty much only related to the Arabs, since Palestinian Jews were now called Israelis, but there was still no real "Palestinian people".
[QUOTE=Regulas021;22762990]It's also the Palestinians homeland. Why do the Jews deserve it more than the Palestinians?[/QUOTE] Yes their guns are better.
it makes me sad when israel debates stop being about people i'm just hoping one day israel and gaza will leave each other alone though that doesn't look likely
[QUOTE=GunFox;22771624]You know, that's funny, because I don't know of the last useful goddamn thing Lebanon or Jordan did. Whereas Israel produces endless scientific discoveries and puts every other nation in the entire Middle East to SHAME in civil liberties and freedoms. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World_%28report%29#Middle_East_.26_North_Africa[/url] It's a fortress state that remains under constant siege (Literally. They built walls. It doesn't get any more siege-like) and yet they beat the pants off of everyone in the region in terms of civil liberties and personal freedoms. So major powerhouse of R&D and huge proponent of personal freedoms in spite of facing constant terrorist threat. That's pretty commendable. But no. We are supposed to support the assholes that surround them that can't even be bothered to make their *own* goddamn people free. We're supposed to trust THEM with Jerusalem? FUCK. THAT.[/QUOTE] He has a point. What BurnEmDown is saying is just goddamn racist bullshit colonialists and imperialists have been spewing forth since 19th century: India would've been mud and huts if it weren't for British, Africa is shit because the white master race left them, Arabs would still have been living in mud houses without oil trade, etc. Talk to any neo-Nazi and they will tell you the exact same thing, word for word. Not kidding. Its infuriating. I'm surprised he even got away with saying that because frankly if it was directed at Jews, there would've been a firestorm by now. Maybe it has to do something with the fact that US supports and installs dictators in middle east like the Shah in Iran, Saddam in Iraq, Bin Laden in Afghanistan to Kings in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Egypt while funneling billions of taxpayer dollars in aid to Israel? American foreign policy is the center of lot of world disorder. You mention the great scientific breakthroughs carried out by the Amazing Israelis who want nothing more to live in peace, but you fail to mention the [b]hundreds of nukes[/b] it possesses (the only one in the entire region) and the billions of dollars worth of bombs, missiles, automatic rifles, guns, armor, tanks, choppers and humvees it also possesses, including [b]banned chemical weapons[/b] such as white phosphorous, which IDF used during their little friendly, neighborhood incursion in January 2009 that left 1400 Gazans dead, 700 of whom were women and children. ALL provided courtesy of US Tax Payer Dollars with little help from AIPAC. When was the last time you heard USA funding millions in microchip research labs in Syria? Nope, never. Israel is practically USA's fifth limb. You also have to understand the influence of AIPAC in the USA. From countless media mouths spewing forth Zionist bullshit on the airwaves to the bought and paid for Congressmen, Senators and Presidents of USA. Republicans are practically AIPAC whores, with Eric Cantor being the biggest Israeli prostitute in US congress working today. I don't think I'd have to provide any links to prove the might of AIPAC. As for the wall that [i]literally[/i] cuts through Arabs' farms, homes and backyards, call it a fortress wall if you want to. To me, Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu, U.N, South African Government (!), Naomi Klein, Norman Finkelstein and millions and millions of others, its an Apartheid Wall. Amnesty International calls for immediate dismantling of the wall because it violates Human Rights. [quote]The amnesty, in a letter sent to all the Israeli candidates in the upcoming parliamentary elections said," these practices are regarded as a violation of human and international laws and that [b]settlements and the Wall are against international law and a violation for the Palestinians' basic human rights.[/b][/quote] I'm afraid you're seeing only one side of the story, the Israeli side, which sees the wall as a cork to keep out the flood of terrorists. Its hardly the case. Watch one of the hundreds of documentaries on the wall on youtube or read books about it. Here's one by 60 Minutes that provides a glimpse into the beacon of truth, justice and freedom that is Israel: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYAgyv2MKyI&feature=related[/url] Absolutely infuriating. To Israel, the "Arab problem" is the same as the "Bantu problem" for South Africa pre-1990. Btw on Jerusalem: It was Christian Byzantines who exiled Jews from Jerusalem and persecuted them for 500 years before Islamic Caliph Umar captured Jerusalem and allowed the Jews back in during 640 AD. That's the first thing he did. Under the Islamic Caliphate, Jews reached unprecedented heights of accomplishments and ushered in their own Jewish Golden Age. Sounds completely striking, considering the fact that the Zionist narrative wants you to believe that Arabs want nothing more than to kill Jews and eat their babies.
[QUOTE=BigDumbBear;22791297]He has a point. What BurnEmDown is saying is just goddamn racist bullshit colonialists and imperialists have been spewing forth since 19th century: India would've been mud and huts if it weren't for British, Africa is shit because the white master race left them, Arabs would still have been living in mud houses without oil trade, etc. Talk to any neo-Nazi and they will tell you the exact same thing, word for word. Not kidding. Its infuriating. I'm surprised he even got away with saying that because frankly if it was directed at Jews, there would've been a firestorm by now. [/quote] Well you have to admit a lot of technological advancements when they settles those lands. India had quite a bit of culture and invented the current number system [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals](it was given to the Arabs as a gift, they didn't make it)[/url] but they had stagnated for a while and were not at the same level of technology as the English. No-one is saying they wouldn't have or they couldn't or that they are inferior, they just hadn't developed it yet. It's hard to say the same thing about the Jews as they have been living with non-Jews for thousands of years so it's near impossible to seperate Jewish technology and White technology. [quote]Maybe it has to do something with the fact that US supports and installs dictators in middle east like the Shah in Iran, Saddam in Iraq, Bin Laden in Afghanistan to Kings in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Egypt while funneling billions of taxpayer dollars in aid to Israel? American foreign policy is the center of lot of world disorder.[/quote] Saddam only purchased weapons, he wasn't put in place by the US. Hamid Karzai was put in power in Afghanistan after the Russians left it in ruin, not Osama Bin Laden. Saudi Arabia's kings have been in power long before the US had an interest in it, Kuwait is a constitutional monarchy with an elected Parliament and Egypt is a fucking republic. The US intervenes a lot but they would be killing each other regardless. [quote] You mention the great scientific breakthroughs carried out by the Amazing Israelis who want nothing more to live in peace, but you fail to mention the [b]hundreds of nukes[/b] it possesses (the only one in the entire region) and the billions of dollars worth of bombs, missiles, automatic rifles, guns, armor, tanks, choppers and humvees it also possesses, including [b]banned chemical weapons[/b] such as white phosphorous, which IDF used during their little friendly, neighborhood incursion in January 2009 that left 1400 Gazans dead, 700 of whom were women and children. ALL provided courtesy of US Tax Payer Dollars with little help from AIPAC. [/quote] They have a lot of guns because the Arabs won't leave them alone. The US has one of the largest militaries on earth, does that mean they want nothing but war? Having lots of weapons does not make you war hungry, just prepared. Also, enough with the fucking White Phosphorus. It's not a banned weapon, it's a smokescreen that they used improperly. All smoke rounds rely on burning something and WP happens to be the best substance for the job. It's not even common practice to use it like that, just some stupid commander putting smokescreens across an entire neighborhood forgetting it's really hot. Israel also has enough of it's own economy to fight it's own battles. If supporting Israel means supporting killing civlians, supporting Palestine means supporting suicide bombings and actions deliberately targeting civilians. Unless you start screaming Allahu Ackbar, I don't support killing civilians. [quote]When was the last time you heard USA funding millions in microchip research labs in Syria? Nope, never. Israel is practically USA's fifth limb.[/quote] They are not funding it, they are buying from them. They are Israeli owned and operated with American customers among many. If Syria wants to make some high tech factories then go ahead, nothing is stopping them getting in on it. [quote]You also have to understand the influence of AIPAC in the USA. From countless media mouths spewing forth Zionist bullshit on the airwaves to the bought and paid for Congressmen, Senators and Presidents of USA. Republicans are practically AIPAC whores, with Eric Cantor being the biggest Israeli prostitute in US congress working today. I don't think I'd have to provide any links to prove the might of AIPAC.[/quote] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government]The Jews control the Government and the media, they are flooding out brains with Zionist Propaganda.[/url] Seriously, I think you are exaggerating the power of AIPAC. They sponsor candidates like any other lobby group (America's politicians are for sale) and while there are plenty of Jews in the media, it's a little :tinfoil: to think they are conspiring to put pro-Israeli propaganda out. [quote]As for the wall that [i]literally[/i] cuts through Arabs' farms, homes and backyards, call it a fortress wall if you want to. To me, Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu, U.N, South African Government (!), Naomi Klein, Norman Finkelstein and millions and millions of others, its an Apartheid Wall. Amnesty International calls for immediate dismantling of the wall because it violates Human Rights.[/quote] Well good for them. Jimmy Carter is a useless cunt, Desmond Tutu and the South African government never had to deal with Blacks waging war on the whites, Naomi Klein and Norman Finkelstein are talking heads with no sense for security and just broadcast their opinions, the UN cited violations that cause the wall to be illegal but these are details which are already being fixed and they have never openly declared to remove the wall because they understand it's purpose. Amnesty international says a lot of stuff but aren't really that credible or balanced and have very little understanding of the overall situation beyond the little people. [quote]I'm afraid you're seeing only one side of the story, the Israeli side, which sees the wall as a cork to keep out the flood of terrorists. Its hardly the case. Watch one of the hundreds of documentaries on the wall on youtube or read books about it. Here's one by 60 Minutes that provides a glimpse into the beacon of truth, justice and freedom that is Israel: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYAgyv2MKyI&feature=related[/url][/quote] Forgive me if I only watched a small bit of it, but most of this is about the west bank. In Gaza, the wall IS keeping back a flow of terrorists as the numbers have gone down significantly since being put in place. I'm also not sure if I want to see [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#Indoctrinating_children]Gaza or Hamas' side[/url], it looks a bit extremist. For the record, I don't mind the people in the West Bank. I like that they have a (sort of) elected government that isn't a terrorist group, that they are willing to negotiate and the people aren't dependant on foreign aid to survive. I do not like the Israeli settlers and neither does BurnEmDown, the wall on the other hand is partially justified as there were plenty of snipers and suicide bombings within Jerusalem and other places. It would be good if they could drop the wall but the Palestinians can't cry cruelty if they can't be at peace with them. [quote]Absolutely infuriating. To Israel, the "Arab problem" is the same as the "Bantu problem" for South Africa pre-1990.[/quote] Not really, Israel is ok with the Arabs living within their country and peaceful neighbors like Egypt. It's more the Arabs who want to kill Israelis that are the problem and if they all happen to be part of one ethnic group, it wasn't on purpose. [quote]Btw on Jerusalem: It was Christian Byzantines who exiled Jews from Jerusalem and persecuted them for 500 years before Islamic Caliph Umar captured Jerusalem and allowed the Jews back in during 640 AD. That's the first thing he did. Under the Islamic Caliphate, Jews reached unprecedented heights of accomplishments and ushered in their own Jewish Golden Age. Sounds completely striking, considering the fact that the Zionist narrative wants you to believe that Arabs want nothing more than to kill Jews and eat their babies.[/QUOTE] Jews have had 2 golden ages, Israel before the Romans and today. All the Jews from the Arab empire being placed in one spot under Muslim control isn't really any great achivement. Either way, Modern day Muslims pretty much do want to kill Jews, or some of them. Not all but it's hardly comforting to have only 1 in 100 want to kill you, I would prefer none of them wanted to kill me. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Tomorrows_Pioneers_Assoud.JPG[/img][/url]
[QUOTE=BigDumbBear;22791297] Maybe it has to do something with the fact that US supports and installs dictators in middle east like the Shah in Iran, Saddam in Iraq, Bin Laden in Afghanistan to Kings in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Egypt while funneling billions of taxpayer dollars in aid to Israel? American foreign policy is the center of lot of world disorder. You mention the great scientific breakthroughs carried out by the Amazing Israelis who want nothing more to live in peace, but you fail to mention the [b]hundreds of nukes[/b] it possesses (the only one in the entire region) and the billions of dollars worth of bombs, missiles, automatic rifles, guns, armor, tanks, choppers and humvees it also possesses, including [b]banned chemical weapons[/b] such as white phosphorous, which IDF used during their little friendly, neighborhood incursion in January 2009 that left 1400 Gazans dead, 700 of whom were women and children. ALL provided courtesy of US Tax Payer Dollars with little help from AIPAC. [/quote] OH NO NOT WHITE PHOSPHORUS MARKING SHELLS OH GOD THE HUMANITY. Nevermind the fact that if they had used anything other than marking shells the number of dead would be ten, if not twenty, fold. Marking shells produce a lot of smoke and a bright light, but they aren't designed to disperse WP in such a fashion that would make it an effective killing tool. Again, before you pull those numbers out again, those numbers would be MASSIVE had they used conventional shells. Herp derp, your country launches rockets, you get bombed in return. This isn't a difficult concept. Oh no, not nukes! Surely their neighbors aren't trying for the EXACT SAME THING. [quote]When was the last time you heard USA funding millions in microchip research labs in Syria? Nope, never. Israel is practically USA's fifth limb.[/quote] Egypt receives 1.8 billion dollars. Jordan gets 500 million. The Palestinian authority supposedly gets some too, though finding numbers for that has proven difficult and frankly I find it hard to believe. The US government hates the Syrians for some reason. Don't recall why. [quote] You also have to understand the influence of AIPAC in the USA. From countless media mouths spewing forth Zionist bullshit on the airwaves to the bought and paid for Congressmen, Senators and Presidents of USA. Republicans are practically AIPAC whores, with Eric Cantor being the biggest Israeli prostitute in US congress working today. I don't think I'd have to provide any links to prove the might of AIPAC. [/quote] The US doesn't give a shit that they are Jewish. The US supports them because they are a free nation with a culture that is most like our own in the region. Arabic nations are extremely alien in terms of culture and generally are extremely limited in personal freedoms. The media? Zionist? What news articles have you been reading? [quote] As for the wall that [i]literally[/i] cuts through Arabs' farms, homes and backyards, call it a fortress wall if you want to. To me, Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu, U.N, South African Government (!), Naomi Klein, Norman Finkelstein and millions and millions of others, its an Apartheid Wall. Amnesty International calls for immediate dismantling of the wall because it violates Human Rights. [/QUOTE] It sits on the border of their territory. That doesn't violate anything. The blockade into Gaza may violate some sort of treaty, but frankly most of these treaties were drafted with conventional warfare in mind. And Gaza regularly launches rockets into Israel. They remain extremely lucky that it is only a blockade and not strategic bombers defending Israel.
[QUOTE=BigDumbBear;22791297]He has a point. What BurnEmDown is saying is just goddamn racist bullshit colonialists and imperialists have been spewing forth since 19th century: India would've been mud and huts if it weren't for British, Africa is shit because the white master race left them, Arabs would still have been living in mud houses without oil trade, etc. Talk to any neo-Nazi and they will tell you the exact same thing, word for word. Not kidding. Its infuriating. I'm surprised he even got away with saying that because frankly if it was directed at Jews, there would've been a firestorm by now.[/QUOTE] Just wanted to note that I didn't mean anything racist by this. I never said something along the lines that Arabs are inferior or would never accomplish anything, but emphasized how the Zionists improved the land while the Arabs didn't. One could attribute it to various causes, for example, perhaps it was because the Zionists came from Europe and knew more about improving lands thanks to European technology, which wasn't available to most Arabs, especially in the region of Palestine which wasn't maintained well by Ottoman rulers in the final years of their empire. And perhaps the Arabs would still live in Palestine as they did 100 years ago, if no Zionists came and the British wouldn't have a mandate over the area after WWI. That's not really racist, considering they were at least satisfied, because if not, they would have moved to more prospering lands, as some did when the Turks started neglecting the region. Please let me know if you still think that I said something racist.
[QUOTE=GunFox;22792625]OH NO NOT WHITE PHOSPHORUS MARKING SHELLS OH GOD THE HUMANITY. Nevermind the fact that if they had used anything other than marking shells the number of dead would be ten, if not twenty, fold. Marking shells produce a lot of smoke and a bright light, but they aren't designed to disperse WP in such a fashion that would make it an effective killing tool. Again, before you pull those numbers out again, those numbers would be MASSIVE had they used conventional shells.[/quote] So you're basically saying that the Palestinians should be glad that Israel didn't nuke them, and instead only used banned chemical weapons? What kind of sick logic is this? The White phosphorus "marking shells" [b]are BANNED[/b] by UN and by multiple organizations including the Geneva conventions. This is what your glorious, humane "marking shells" does to its victims (warning: GRAPHIC): [img]http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/g_image001.jpg[/img] Instead of joining the chorus of humanitarian agencies, UN and Amnesty International in condemning the use of the barbaric weapons, you go on and frickin DEFEND their usage? What kind of sick, twisted, warped mentality would defend the usage of [b]banned weapons[/b]? Jesus, I'm glad my mind isn't as twisted. [quote]Herp derp, your country launches rockets, you get bombed in return. This isn't a difficult concept.[/quote] Herp derp, you are running the biggest open air concentration camp since Nazi ruled Germany in violation of astronomical number of human rights violations. Don't cry when if some zealots shoot rockets back in retaliation. [quote]Oh no, not nukes! Surely their neighbors aren't trying for the EXACT SAME THING. [/quote] lol. Iran can't fart out a single enrinched uranium rod for the past 50 years while Israel racks up 200 nuclear warheads, enough to destroy the entire world 4 times over. [quote] Egypt receives 1.8 billion dollars. Jordan gets 500 million.[/quote] Alert! US supports dictators in the middle east! Thanks for proving my point. [quote]The US government hates the Syrians for some reason. Don't recall why.[/quote] Its because of alleged Syrian involvement in Rafik Hariri's assassination. [quote]The US doesn't give a shit that they are Jewish. The US supports them because they are a free nation with a culture that is most like our own in the region. Arabic nations are extremely alien in terms of culture and generally are extremely limited in personal freedoms.[/quote] So apparently Israelis get to carry out despicable war crimes, build apartheid walls, perform human rights violations and violate every treaty and UN resolution out there [b]because US supports their culture?[/b] Holy shit dude, I hope you're kidding. But you have a point. Their culture of bomb people to shit first and ask questions later is strikingly similar to ours. [quote]It sits on the border of their territory. [b]That doesn't violate anything.[/b][/quote] So fucking naive. The wall is the annexation of West Bank settlements and de-facto annexation of over half of West Bank! [quote][url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3879057.stm] [b]UN rules against Israeli barrier[/b][/url] The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel's West Bank barrier is illegal and construction of it should be stopped immediately. [b]The ruling said the barrier's construction was "tantamount to annexation" and impeded the Palestinian right to self-determination.[/b][/QUOTE] Also, [quote]In 2004, the United Nations passed a number of resolutions and the International Court of Justice issued an advisory opinion calling for the barrier to be removed, for Arab residents to be compensated for any damage done, and for other states to take action to obtain Israel's compliance with the Fourth Geneva Convention.[/quote] It doesn't violate anything? Seriously? My God...these are the words that people use to justify atrocities...now I know. [quote]The blockade into Gaza may violate some sort of treaty, but frankly most of these treaties were drafted with conventional warfare in mind. And Gaza regularly launches rockets into Israel. They remain extremely lucky that it is only a blockade and not strategic bombers defending Israel.[/quote] "may" violate "some sort of" treaty. Keep justifying Great Israel's war crimes. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths which people go to justify gross human rights injustices, instead of admitting what is wrong. [editline]09:45PM[/editline] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22811553] Please let me know if you still think that I said something racist.[/QUOTE] What you said is repeated by every racist out there who believes it takes a white man to teach the natives the ways of living. Playing little hypotheticals is fun, especially when its backed up by biased world view of history. Go about 800 years back and it was Europeans who were burning cats and living in mud and filth while the Arabs were pioneering math, agriculture, architecture, sciences and philosophy. I'm sure some idiot during that time also uttered something racist like European culture is inherently savage and anti-modern, and got promptly laughed at. Being Jewish, you should be ashamed of even uttering such race/culture-superiority nonsense. You know very well that a little bit too much of that can take humans to terrible places.
[QUOTE=BigDumbBear;22813748]So you're basically saying that the Palestinians should be glad that Israel didn't nuke them, and instead only used banned chemical weapons? What kind of sick logic is this? The White phosphorus "marking shells" [b]are BANNED[/b] by UN and by multiple organizations including the Geneva conventions. This is what your glorious, humane "marking shells" does to its victims (warning: GRAPHIC): [img_thumb]http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/g_image001.jpg[/img_thumb] Instead of joining the chorus of humanitarian agencies, UN and Amnesty International in condemning the use of the barbaric weapons, you go on and frickin DEFEND their usage? What kind of sick, twisted, warped mentality would defend the usage of [b]banned weapons[/b]? Jesus, I'm glad my mind isn't as twisted. [/quote] They aren't banned, deliberate incendiary weapons are banned. It is illegal to use markers and smokescreens improperly just like it's illegal to shoot a flare at someones face, but that is the responsibility of the person using them improperly. The weapon itself isn't illegal and Israel is not responsible for them using it wrong. [quote]Herp derp, you are running the biggest open air concentration camp since Nazi ruled Germany in violation of astronomical number of human rights violations. Don't cry when if some zealots shoot rockets back in retaliation.[/quote] They were shooting rockets long before the wall and there's nothing to say they wouldn't stop if they removed the wall. It's not justified retaliation when they have been doing it long before any action was taken against them. Stop with the concentration camp shit too, there is no forced labour, no curfew, no restrictions on what they can do within there, no regulations on food (they dropped the barrier restrictions to just weapons), they are just a small incompetent region run by terrorists with sanctions placed on them. The only reason to mention concentration camps is to bring a "hurr irony" aspect from the Jews history. [quote]lol. Iran can't fart out a single enrinched uranium rod for the past 50 years while Israel racks up 200 nuclear warheads, enough to destroy the entire world 4 times over. [/quote] It doesn't matter about competence, it's a matter of if they are trying. If you say having Nukes in general is bad, then the pursuit of nukes is just as bad. It also doesn't matter how many they have or whatever bullshit number you want to make up. [quote]Alert! US supports dictators in the middle east! Thanks for proving my point. [/quote] Your point is wrong because they are not dictators and the US supports them for their peaceful actions. If every country the US supports is a Dictatorship then a fair portion of the middle east and Africa are all Dictatorships. Most of the aid is given because they are a close partner of the US and are a relatively poor country, not because the US is controlling the world through puppet governments. [quote]Its because of alleged Syrian involvement in Rafik Hariri's assassination.[/quote] It is because Syria is not cooperating with any Peace efforts and is still allegedly supplying weapons to terrorists. Things have always been tense between the two and they aren't going to be giving aid to a country harbouring terrorists. [quote]So apparently Israelis get to carry out despicable war crimes, build apartheid walls, perform human rights violations and violate every treaty and UN resolution out there [b]because US supports their culture?[/b] Holy shit dude, I hope you're kidding. But you have a point. Their culture of bomb people to shit first and ask questions later is strikingly similar to ours. [/quote] How do you think world politics works? When a country commits a crime the UN police come and put the entire country in jail? Legitimate concerns are dealt with but no-one has even completely severed relations over them. People condemn Russia occupying Chechnya or China annexing Tibet but it isn't a death sentence for their dimplomatic relations. Many Jews are from western countries and have brought western culture back with them to Israel, Arabs have maintained their own culture which is mostly based around their strict religious beliefs and tribal behaviour. While the culture difference isn't an insurmountable barrier, it helps to identify with them if they are more like you. [quote]So fucking naive. The wall is the annexation of West Bank settlements and de-facto annexation of over half of West Bank! [/quote] Again, the Gaza wall and the West Bank wall are two different things. The West Bank wall is legitimate, the only issue raised is it's placement. If the wall was moved back to the real borders, it's fine. While I disagree with them putting it there, I am not going to completely drop my support for them because I am not a petty douchebag. [quote]Also, It doesn't violate anything? Seriously? My God...these are the words that people use to justify atrocities...now I know.[/quote] Stop crying Nazi, it doesn't do anything. The UN didn't call this an atrocity anyway, it's just a violation of land which can be undone easily. I don't know what that second one sounds like to you but to me it's just disaproval and suggested action. If you hear "Israel are Nazis, you should kill them" then that's your problem. [quote]"may" violate "some sort of" treaty. Keep justifying Great Israel's war crimes. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths which people go to justify gross human rights injustices, instead of admitting what is wrong.[/quote] Alright then, it's wrong that they restrict food supplies [url=http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Israel-to-Ease-Gaza-Blockade-96548694.html](already been taken care of)[/url], it's wrong of them to indescriminately bomb sections (action already taken against officers who ordered it), it's wrong for them to further take land (policy of conservative government, does not reflect Israels opinions as a while), it is wrong for them to be careless in their offensives against Hamas (impossible to be 100% careful due to human shields and urban guerilla tactics so there will always be some loss of life) and it is wrong of them to supress Arab immigration (letting thousands of Arabs who possibly want to destroy Israel into the country isn't really a good idea though). How about you point out some of the crimes of Hamas and the Palestinians so we can be sure you aren't just some bleeding heart liberal who supports the side with the highest body count? [quote]What you said is repeated by every racist out there who believes it takes a white man to teach the natives the ways of living.[/QUOTE] Racists say it so it must be racist. Not that it has any kind of base in truth, it has to be comepletely false in every way because it comes from a racist, the scum of the earth. No-one cares about white or black, they are more advanced technologicaly. It's quite absurd to say the Arabs who have lived in the desert for centuries have the same experience in farmlands as people who have lived in them for centuries. [quote] Playing little hypotheticals is fun, especially when its backed up by biased world view of history. Go about 800 years back and it was Europeans who were burning cats and living in mud and filth while the Arabs were pioneering math, agriculture, architecture, sciences and philosophy. I'm sure some idiot during that time also uttered something racist like European culture is inherently savage and anti-modern, and got promptly laughed at.[/quote] Close but you are still wrong. Back then they were more a more advanced civlilisation (it's still doubtful) but it just goes to show that it's not the people, it's the culture and technology. European culture changed dramaticaly after the Renaissance and the Industrial revolution and became more advanced; not because they were European, but because they had progressed. The people aren't less, it's their culture and level of technology. [quote]Being Jewish, you should be ashamed of even uttering such race/culture-superiority nonsense. You know very well that a little bit too much of that can take humans to terrible places.[/quote] :godwin:
[QUOTE=BigDumbBear;22813748]What you said is repeated by every racist out there who believes it takes a white man to teach the natives the ways of living. Playing little hypotheticals is fun, especially when its backed up by biased world view of history. Go about 800 years back and it was Europeans who were burning cats and living in mud and filth while the Arabs were pioneering math, agriculture, architecture, sciences and philosophy. I'm sure some idiot during that time also uttered something racist like European culture is inherently savage and anti-modern, and got promptly laughed at. Being Jewish, you should be ashamed of even uttering such race/culture-superiority nonsense. You know very well that a little bit too much of that can take humans to terrible places.[/QUOTE] Sometimes it does take a "white man" to teach the natives some new things. Do you think that countries such as South Africa, many in east Asia, south America, and others, would have been as advanced as they are today, had no one from Europe colonized or traded with them? Sure, the colonizers did some brutal things sometimes, but in the end they brought with them technology more advanced sometimes in thousands of years, and now those countries which came in contact with Europeans are considered first-world countries, and they enjoy modern technology, unlike other countries which rarely have this kind of technology. I know that 800 years ago, or practically since the start of Islam and until the 1500's, the Islamic world was much more advanced than the Christian world. I'm even a tad biased towards Islam here, since Jews lived much better in Islamic countries (only paying Jizya with the rare violent clash with the Muslims from time to time) than in Christian countries (persecution, force-conversion sometimes, blood libels, driving them entirely out of certain countries, lots of restrictions). It's not racist, it's history. When I look at history from a non-biased angle, particularly the middle ages, I can see that the Islamic world is far more advanced. But when I look at the Renaissance and onwards, I can see the Christian, or European world quickly catch up and then advancing even more than the Islamic world has. [quote] Their culture of bomb people to shit first and ask questions later is strikingly similar to ours.[/quote] :roflolmao: I think you got some cultures mixed up, though I won't say with whom so it won't sound racist (unlike your comment).
[QUOTE=BigDumbBear;22813748] [img]http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/g_image001.jpg[/img] Instead of joining the chorus of humanitarian agencies, UN and Amnesty International in condemning the use of the barbaric weapons, you go on and frickin DEFEND their usage? What kind of sick, twisted, warped mentality would defend the usage of [b]banned weapons[/b]? Jesus, I'm glad my mind isn't as twisted. [/QUOTE] Hey should I start posting what happens when they load 155mm DPICM? Rather than one dead guy, it's an entire block wiped clean. If they wanted to kill them with artillery, they could have. WP marking shells are, by far, the least lethal shell they can launch. Again, they are smoke/marking shells by design. They are not designed to be effective weapons. It is part of the same military doctrine used by the United States. Early pictures of the Iraq war have fucktons of WP smoke being dropped onto cities. You plunge your enemy into chaos through massive amounts of visually crippling smoke. It isn't as effective as conventional shelling, but it kills very few civilians and keeps the enemy destabilized. Bear in mind that if the assault doesn't go like clockwork, then LOTS of civilians die in the resulting drawn out battle. If you can push into the city and take it while the defenders are in total disarray, you wind up with less innocent deaths on your hands in the long run. Herp derp, the military has reasons for actions it takes!
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22792392]Well you have to admit a lot of technological advancements when they settles those lands. India had quite a bit of culture and invented the current number system (it was given to the Arabs as a gift, they didn't make it) but they had stagnated for a while and were not at the same level of technology as the English. No-one is saying they wouldn't have or they couldn't or that they are inferior, they just hadn't developed it yet. It's hard to say the same thing about the Jews as they have been living with non-Jews for thousands of years so it's near impossible to seperate Jewish technology and White technology.[/quote] Lot of technological advancements happened in around the world since 1940, not just Israel. Israel simply had the good fortune of being the only country in the middle-east allowed to suck America’s teet, all the while other countries around it were coming out of the glorious after affects of colonialism. Why bring India’s contribution to math? Nobody is denying it. I’m simply pointing out that British skinheads use the same language to describe and justify colonization of India, the land that produced Taj Mahal and Numerical system. If you agree with them, not much I can do. I vehemently disagree. I don’t believe Whites, Blacks, Asians, Jews or Muslims are capable of great things. I believe human beings are capable of great things. Why did you felt the need to point out that Arabs didn’t invent the numerical system?? Your attempt at denying Arabs their legitimate pioneering in Math (without any provocation from me) goes to show the level of your discomfort with Arabs and Muslims in general. Your warped worldview sees Arabs as nothing more than sub human usurpers incapable of any accomplishment, and a general burden on earth. Btw, “White technology”. Holy shit, is this Stormfront.org? What about Black inventors? Good God… [quote]Saddam only purchased weapons, he wasn't put in place by the US. Hamid Karzai was put in power in Afghanistan after the Russians left it in ruin, not Osama Bin Laden. Saudi Arabia's kings have been in power long before the US had an interest in it, Kuwait is a constitutional monarchy with an elected Parliament and Egypt is a fucking republic. The US intervenes a lot but they would be killing each other regardless[/quote] An excerpt: [quote] According to another former senior State Department official, Saddam, while only in his early 20s, became a part of a U.S. plot to get rid of Qasim. According to this source, Saddam was installed in an apartment in Baghdad on al-Rashid Street directly opposite Qasim's office in Iraq's Ministry of Defense, to observe Qasim's movements. Adel Darwish, Middle East expert and author of "Unholy Babylon," said the move was done "with full knowledge of the CIA," and that Saddam's CIA handler was an Iraqi dentist working for CIA and Egyptian intelligence. U.S. officials separately confirmed Darwish's account.[/quote] Saddam was fully supported by CIA during the Iran-Iraq war largely due to the threat of growing Islamist movement in Iran. USA was scared shit about Iran becoming the middle-east super power, and the war grinded to a stalemate. Similarly, Bin Laden was given support by the CIA to counter Soviet Union invasion. When the terrorist they supported started his own organization and started brutalizing his own population, we turned a blind eye. Our Presidents bow down to Saudi Kings because of their oil. We selectively choose and promote democracy only when it suits our needs and interests. Our proxy wars against Iran and Soviet Union (and few others in Latin America) have had severe detrimental effects in world politics. Egypt has been in a state of emergency since Anwar Sadat’s assassination and has been effectively ruled by the president-dictator Hosni Mubarak for the past 25 years. This monster has significantly restricted human rights, free press and gave extraordinary power to the police apparatus. The cops can arrest anyone and throw them in jail/torture them indefinitely. But we like them. They’re our puppets. The only time our attempt to install a puppet in the middle backfired is in Iran with the Shah. [quote]They have a lot of guns because the Arabs won't leave them alone. The US has one of the largest militaries on earth, does that mean they want nothing but war? Having lots of weapons does not make you war hungry, just prepared. Also, enough with the fucking White Phosphorus. It's not a banned weapon, it's a smokescreen that they used improperly. All smoke rounds rely on burning something and WP happens to be the best substance for the job. It's not even common practice to use it like that, just some stupid commander putting smokescreens across an entire neighborhood forgetting it's really hot. Israel also has enough of it's own economy to fight it's own battles. If supporting Israel means supporting killing civlians, supporting Palestine means supporting suicide bombings and actions deliberately targeting civilians. Unless you start screaming Allahu Ackbar, I don't support killing civilians.[/quote] Having lots of weapons makes you war hungry. Yes, US has proven to be a war mongering country run by raging morons in the past 50 years: Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. USA is seen as the biggest terrorist in the world to millions of families devastated by the wars and because of their slavish approach to Israeli crimes in Palestine. Bush and Cheney should be tried in Hague for War crimes and hanged. Similarly Olmert and Ariel Sharon should be tried in Hague and hanged for War crimes. Israel goes few steps ahead and tops America’s record. Both Israel and America are a product of the military-industrial complex which essentially says to keep building the biggest weapons as the cornerstone of foreign policy. They have a lot of guns because Arabs won’t leave them alone? Please. Sounds awfully childish justification for keeping immensely powerful weapons, especially for a country run by thundering lunatics. Maybe Palestinians should have guns and bombs because Israelis won’t leave them alone? Ha. They have a lot of guns manufactured by the military industrial complex of US-Israel which they regularly use on native population, including using [b]banned[/b] weapons. Which brings me to my next point. I’m sorry if talking about banned weapons like White Phosphorus makes you uncomfortable. Its something that has to be repeated over and over, so people can realize what humane practices IDF engages in. You not only do not condemn its usage, but you justify it just like every other Israeli apologist out there. That makes you nothing but an IDF shill. Bringing some sort of vague moral equivalency from the Palestinian side in the form of “if you support Palestine, you support suicide bombings” is laughably stupid. I unequivocally condemn suicide bombings and targeting of innocent civilians and I don’t hide behind mind numbingly stupid reasons like “the commander didn’t know how hot it was that day!” in order to justify my points. You should get a medal for espousing some of the greatest nonsense put forth by the Israeli propaganda. Probably a medal drenched in Gaza kids’ blood that displays the humane element of the White Phosphorus shells, also known as “marking shells” and “smokescreen”. At least have the spine to condemn their usage instead of embarrassing yourself by saying your inept, buffoon IDF commander didn’t know how hot it was that day. Here’s their “smokescreen” in action, raining down on a residential complex: [img] http://schema-root.org/military/weapons/chemical/white_phosphorus/white_phosphorus_on_gazans.jpg[/img] Here’s another one of their “smokescreen”/ “marking shell” in action: [img] http://pakalert.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/wpchild.jpg[/img] Another one here, raining down on residential areas: [img] http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/806/slide_806_14602_large.jpg[/img] Goddamn that IDF commander! If only he would’ve read the weather section in the Sunday papers! I would buy your ridiculous “bu bu bu bubu it’s a smokescreen!!” argument if their deployment followed with the dispatch of IDF soldiers in the area (yeah, right). If it’s a smokescreen, what’s it screening against? The F-16s that are flying 30,000 ft in the air dropping megaton bombs? Give me a fucking [i]break![/i]. The Phosphorous shells primary usage is for screening and marking. But every justice organization in the universe condemns its usage in civilian zones, a point that thoroughly goes over your head. There’s no point in even justifying its usage. Just come out and say you condemn IDF’s use of WP in Gaza. If you don’t condemn it, you’re worse than the criminal assholes who used it on civilians. [quote]They are not funding it, they are buying from them. They are Israeli owned and operated with American customers among many. If Syria wants to make some high tech factories then go ahead, nothing is stopping them getting in on it.[/quote] I’m sure Intel is Israeli owned and operated. [quote] Foreign investors, who provide [b]more than half the funding for Israeli ventures[/b], range from big private-equity firms like Apax Partners and 3i to pension funds such as CalPERS and the New York State Retirement System.[/quote] [quote]The Jews control the Government and the media, they are flooding out brains with Zionist Propaganda. Seriously, I think you are exaggerating the power of AIPAC. They sponsor candidates like any other lobby group (America's politicians are for sale) and while there are plenty of Jews in the media, it's a little to think they are conspiring to put pro-Israeli propaganda out.[/quote] Lol. Nice stealth attempt to paint me as an anti-semetic. How many times have you played that card in your lifetime? I’m sure its more than the number of innocent children your IDF bombed from the stratosphere. Its starting to lose its value because of people overplaying it in every situation. You are downplaying the power of AIPAC. An American politician dare not cross paths with AIPAC, lest he wants to be forgotten quickly. This is different than crossing paths with Insurance and Energy lobbies who are always criticized by populists. AIPAC was instrumental in thugging America into Iraq War supported by bloodthirsty warmongers on both sides. [quote] So, passing a few confidential documents over is a minor affair. Pro-Likud intellectuals established networks linking Defense and the national security advisers of Vice President Dick Cheney, gaining enormous influence over policy by cherry-picking and distorting intelligence to make a case for war on Saddam Hussein. And their ulterior motive was to remove the most powerful Arab military from the scene, not because it was an active threat to Israel (it wasn't) but because it was a possible deterrent to Likud plans for aggressive expansion (at the least, they want half of the West Bank, permanently). It was these WINEP and AIPAC-linked U.S. Likud backers in the Defense Department who had the Iraqi army dissolved as soon as Saddam was overthrown. [/quote] [url] http://www.antiwar.com/cole/?articleid=3467[/url] As for the influence of AIPAC, keep downplaying it. Its “just another” lobby. I’ll let University of Chicago and Harvard take care of that: [quote]Among the best-known critical works about AIPAC is The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, by University of Chicago professor John Mearsheimer and Harvard University Kennedy School of Government professor Stephen Walt. In the working paper and resulting book they accuse AIPAC of being "the most powerful and best known" component of a larger pro-Israel lobby that distorts American foreign policy. They write: AIPAC's success is due to its ability to reward legislators and congressional candidates who support its agenda, and to punish those who challenge it. ... AIPAC makes sure that its friends get strong financial support from the myriad pro-Israel PACs. Those seen as hostile to Israel, on the other hand, can be sure that AIPAC will direct campaign contributions to their political opponents. ... [b]The bottom line is that AIPAC, which is a de facto agent for a foreign government, has a stranglehold on the U.S. Congress.[/b] Open debate about U.S. policy towards Israel does not occur there, even though that policy has important consequences for the entire world.[/quote] [quote]Well good for them. Jimmy Carter is a useless cunt, Desmond Tutu and the South African government never had to deal with Blacks waging war on the whites, Naomi Klein and Norman Finkelstein are talking heads with no sense for security and just broadcast their opinions, [/quote] I’m sorry. I would rather listen to the opinion of Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu rather than an someone on the internet that defending mass murder, or the enablers of those criminals conducting mass murders. Call these people “useless cunts” and “talking heads” all you want. I’m certain of the fact that the truth they lay out is extremely stinging and no amount of degrading by your ilk will change that fact. I will forever respect and listen to these folks over your paid IDF robots yapping about how killing 1400 people is a defensive tactic. A monkey with half a brain could see through their lies. [quote]the UN cited violations that cause the wall to be illegal but these are details which are already being fixed and they have never openly declared to remove the wall because they understand it's purpose. Amnesty international says a lot of stuff but aren't really that credible or balanced and have very little understanding of the overall situation beyond the little people.[/quote] What parts are you fixing? Does the fixing part involve removing a giant fucking wall through the middle of Ahmad’s Olive grove? If not, then go back to the drawing board and come up with a better plan that does. [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3911785.stm]]The UN voted [b]150 – 6 [/b] [/url] in favor of dismantling the wall! You are LYING through your teeth (or hands)! Hardly surprising, though. Amnesty International aren’t really that credible..ok. I hope everyone is reading this and they all come a bit closer to understanding how the twisted mind of IDFDF works. Ok, so Amnesty International aren’t “really” that credible (lol, ok). How about[url= http://www.btselem.org/English/Separation_Barrier/] Bt’selem, an Israeli Human Rights NGO?[/url] [quote]In setting the Barrier's route, Israeli officials almost totally ignored the severe infringement of Palestinian human rights. The route was based on extraneous considerations completely unrelated to the security of Israeli citizens. A major aim in setting the route was de facto annexation of land: when the Barrier is completed, some nine percent of the West Bank, containing 60 settlements, will be situated on the western – the “Israeli” – side. Another reason for building the Barrier inside the West Bank was to avoid the political price to be paid if the Green Line were set as Israel's border.[/quote] Are they credible or not? I mean, which international Human Rights body do you think is “credible”? How about [url= http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2004/02/22/israel-west-bank-barrier-violates-human-rights]Human Rights Watch?[/url] [quote] [b] Israel: West Bank Barrier Violates Human Rights[/b] The construction, route and operation of Israel’s separation barrier inside the West Bank violate international human rights and humanitarian law, Human Rights Watch said in a briefing paper released today. [/quote] There’s no denying and tiptoeing around the issue by labeling the Human Rights organizations as “aren’t really credible” by downplaying the gross human rights violations of the Apartheid wall. The world is not on your side. [quote]Forgive me if I only watched a small bit of it, but most of this is about the west bank. In Gaza, the wall IS keeping back a flow of terrorists as the numbers have gone down significantly since being put in place. I'm also not sure if I want to see Gaza or Hamas' side, it looks a bit extremist. For the record, I don't mind the people in the West Bank. I like that they have a (sort of) elected government that isn't a terrorist group, that they are willing to negotiate and the people aren't dependant on foreign aid to survive. I do not like the Israeli settlers and neither does BurnEmDown, the wall on the other hand is partially justified as there were plenty of snipers and suicide bombings within Jerusalem and other places. It would be good if they could drop the wall but the Palestinians can't cry cruelty if they can't be at peace with them.[/quote] But Haaretz, with Shin Bet as its source, reports that the reduced terrorism is due to Hamas becoming a political entity in 2005. Is Haaretz also less credible? [quote] But the main reason for the reduction in terrorist acts over the past year is the truce in the territories, as partial as it may be. [b]The fact that Hamas, in general, stopped engaging in terror activities changed the picture.[/b] The Islamic Jihad network in the West Bank upgraded its capability and was responsible for the murder of 23 Israelis in 2005, but during that time, Hamas - the leading terror orgnanization in recent years - has scaled back its engagement in terror. Its focus on the political arena and the preparations for the Palestinian parliamentary elections have limited its active involvement in terror to a large extent.[/quote] Your stupid wall can also be bypassed by terrorists. Read the article. Haaretz also reports that Gaza Disengagement Plan also resulted in reduced terrorism. SURPRISE! I mean, who could see that coming??? [quote] [b]The reduced number of attacks is also related to the disengagement and the army's withdrawal from friction points in the Gaza Strip. [/b]In the past year there have been fewer explosive charges (199 compared to 592), fewer mortar shells (848 compared to 1,231) and fewer shooting incidents (1,133 copared to 1,621).[/quote] [url]http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/shin-bet-palestinian-truce-main-cause-for-reduced-terror-1.61607[/url] [quote]Not really, Israel is ok with the Arabs living within their country and peaceful neighbors like Egypt. It's more the Arabs who want to kill Israelis that are the problem and if they all happen to be part of one ethnic group, it wasn't on purpose.[/quote] Peaceful puppets like Hosni Mobarak? Yep. They’re your stooges. Feed pigs like him $1.8 bn every year and they will continue performing Israeli dog tricks. As for “Arabs who want to kill Israelis” being the problem, I see it the other way round. I see Israel as the biggest problem in the middle-east. It’s the Israelis who are bloodthirsty and hell bent on killing Arabs and their children to me. It’s the Israelis who were secretly starving Gazans to death, a despicable act which was showcased to the entire world by the Flotilla peace activists. It’s the Israelis who post humiliating checkpoints and run 50 ft barriers through Palestinians’ backyards. It’s the Israelis who uproot their olive groves, set them on fire, desecrate their mosques and bulldoze their homes. It’s the Israelis who bomb the shit out of [b]100s[/b] of innocent people (including designated safe zones) in retaliation for a rocket attack. Your brave IDF commandoes are bunch of fucking amateur pussies if they can’t single handedly take out the noobs shooting tin can rockets into the territory, and instead shower everywhere with dozens of bombs. lol. Doesn’t surprise me a least bit. IDF is a bunch of cowards and criminals drunk on power, ego and whole lotta bullshit. Besides, history speaks for itself. Educate me, how many Arabs have been killed by Israel in the past 10 years? 5000??! Well shit. We destroyed two countries and hanged their leaders for 2/3rd of that number of US civilians killed! We can play this game about who wants to kill who all night long. Fact of the matter is, before the violent birth of Israel in Arab lands, Holy land was relatively a peaceful area. Muslims and Jews lived in a comparatively peaceful environment. Thanks to Zionism, its hardly true today. Thanks to fucking morons like that settler in the 60 Minutes link, it will continue to get worse. Btw, by Israelis, I mean the right wing pro-military neo-con hawkish Zionist fuckwads. I understand that there are quite a few brave Israelis who oppose their despicable government policies. [url]http://sites.google.com/site/falastinel7ora/if-only-americans-knew[/url] [quote]Jews have had 2 golden ages, Israel before the Romans and today. All the Jews from the Arab empire being placed in one spot under Muslim control isn't really any great achivement. Either way, Modern day Muslims pretty much do want to kill Jews, or some of them. Not all but it's hardly comforting to have only 1 in 100 want to kill you, I would prefer none of them wanted to kill me [/quote] Funny. If I google “Jewish Golden Age”, the only link in Wikipedia that comes up is the one about the golden age in Moorish spain which was under the Islamic Caliphate. No amount of your revisionist bullshit can change the history. Heck, even staunchly pro-Israeli Jews like BurnEmDown agree that Jews were able to accomplish a lot under Muslim rule. You don’t like this fact because it goes against your narrative. It goes against your “Muslims want to kill Jews!!” lies. It goes against your entire worldview based on falsehood and lies. Here’s another list of facts that goes against your world views: [url= http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/social_issues/jan-june10/righteous_04-05.html]Muslim Arabs who risked their lives in protecting Jews during WW2[/url]. It goes without saying that Jews, Muslims and Christians lived in relative harmony inside Jerusalem. As I said, when Caliph Umar captured Jerusalem from the Byzantines in 640 AD, he did not destroy your wailing wall and Church of Holy Seppulchre. He allowed the Jews back in. If Muslims want nothing more than to kill Jews, he wouldn’t have let them back in. Just one tiny example… [quote]They aren't banned, deliberate incendiary weapons are banned. It is illegal to use markers and smokescreens improperly just like it's illegal to shoot a flare at someones face, but that is the responsibility of the person using them improperly. The weapon itself isn't illegal and Israel is not responsible for them using it wrong. [/quote] [quote] Donatella Rovera, the head of an Amnesty fact-finding mission to southern Israel and Gaza, said: [b]"Israeli forces used white phosphorus and other weapons supplied by the USA to carry out serious violations of international humanitarian law, including war crimes”[/b].[/quote] So, Israel is not responsible if IDF uses an incendiary device deemed [b]banned[/b] under international law, if used against civilians? Really? Why did IDF deny that they used WP against civilians and under immense pressure from human rights groups, finally admitted that they used it? Might as well go on and use poison gas against civilians. But wait, poison gas is useful for creating smokescreen! Or wait, its useful for killing bugs in the area! It has a use! Israel is not responsible if some dumbass IDF commander (which there seems to be a lot lately) uses it! How fucking inept are IDF anyway? Can’t use smokescreens properly without burning 500 people to death, can’t clear out mobs on ship decks, can’t even defeat a ragtag band of militiamen (Hezbollah). I haven’t seen a more inept military in the world. Even banana republics have some sort of competent military. All they’re good at is shooting school kids throwing rocks. No wonder Israel doesn’t send these bumbling fools behind enemy lines to individually engage with rocket throwing terrorists. Pathetic. [b][url= http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5575070.ece]CHANGING TUNE[/url][/b] [b]January 5[/b] The Times reports that telltale smoke has appeared from areas of shelling. Israel denies using phosphorus [b]January 8[/b] The Times reports photographic evidence showing stockpiles of white phosphorus (WP) shells. Israel Defence Forces spokesman says: “This is what we call a quiet shell – it has no explosives and no white phosphorus” [b]January 12[/b] The Times reports that more than 50 phosphorus burns victims are taken into Nasser Hospital. An Israeli military spokesman “categorically” denies the use of white phosphorus [b]January 15[/b] Remnants of white phosphorus shells are found in western Gaza. The IDF refuses to comment on specific weaponry but insists ammunition is “within the scope of international law” [b]January 16[/b] The United Nations Relief and Works Agency headquarters are hit with phosphorus munitions. The Israeli military continues to deny its use [b]January 21[/b] Avital Leibovich, Israel’s military spokeswoman, admits white phosphorus munitions were employed in a manner “according to international law” [b]January 23[/b] Israel says it is launching an investigation into white phosphorus munitions, which hit a UN school on January 17. “Some practices could be illegal but we are going into that. The IDF is holding an investigation concerning one specific unit and one incident” Source: Times database The timeline clearly shows IDF denying ever using the WP munitions. In the face of mounting evidence and unavoidable PR disaster looming, they admit its usage and mire it with Confuse Talk ™. Shooting a flare at someone’s face does not completely destroy the skin, internal organs and bone structure. Nice attempt at downplaying White Phosphorus’ effects on human tissue. Keep it up though. Good practice. [quote] Phosphorus burns carry a greater risk of mortality than other forms of burns due to the absorption of phosphorus into the body through the burned area, resulting in liver, heart and kidney damage, and in some cases multiple organ failure.[61] These weapons are particularly dangerous to exposed people because white phosphorus continues to burn unless deprived of oxygen or until it is completely consumed. [img] [url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Ayman2.jpg/220px-Ayman2.jpg[/url] [/img][/quote] Sure. Sounds exactly like getting hit in the face with a flare. Shit doesn’t stop burning through your skin till it reaches your bone structure. Get that through your head. Geneva Conventions explicitly prohibit the use of incendiary weapons against civilians, and against civilian areas for this reason. There is no need to torture civilians with excruciating pain worse than death, especially in the case of children. [quote]They were shooting rockets long before the wall and there's nothing to say they wouldn't stop if they removed the wall. It's not justified retaliation when they have been doing it long before any action was taken against them. [/quote] In all honesty, I was being snappy and rhetorical. The shooting of rockets began with 2nd intifadah. I should have phrased my response as “You are illegally occupying Palestinian land and subjecting the native population to the boot of oppression. Don't cry when if some zealots shoot rockets back in retaliation.” I don’t support the indiscriminate shooting of rockets into Israel [i]at all[/i]. The folks doing this stuff are heartless monsters. But at the same time you can’t expect native population to bend over and stretch their arseholes in the face of oppression. There will always be a militant element in the struggle for independence, no matter where it happens. [quote]Stop with the concentration camp shit too, there is no forced labour, no curfew, no restrictions on what they can do within there, no regulations on food (they dropped the barrier restrictions to just weapons), they are just a small incompetent region run by terrorists with sanctions placed on them. The only reason to mention concentration camps is to bring a "hurr irony" aspect from the Jews history.[/quote] Its not just me. It’s the Vatican who called Gaza an open air concentration camp too. [quote] "Defenseless populations are always the ones who pay," Renato Cardinal Martino told the Italian daily Il Sussidiario. "Conditions in Gaza increasingly resemble a big concentration camp."[/quote] 1.5 million People forced into a 150 square mile area, surrounded by a 25 foot high wall in all sides. Exports and imports are severely restricted by the Overwatch Command of Israel with air, sea and land routes being monitored 24/7 by the Oppressors. Peanut butter, pasta, toys, chocolate and other delights are prohibited from entering this Human Zone. Any civilian seemingly approaching a checkpoint or trying to escape this prison is shot at. There are sieges, blockades and shoot at sight curfews. UN is stretched thin running social services, from running schools to being bodyguards of schoolchildren walking to the school. The debilitating blockades left a human catastrophe in its wake. By December 2008, Richard Falk, special rapporteur on the Occupied Territories for the United Nations reported an overall Gaza malnutrition rate of 75 percent, a childhood anemia rate of 46 percent and a devastated infrastructure. Since 2000, there have been 8 military assaults into this open air walled prison in retaliation for civilians retaliating. The results from these assaults resemble the aftermath of bombing fishes in a barrel. It is better described by a surgeon working in the area during Operation Cast Lead: [quote] "Take some kittens … in a box. Seal up the box, then jump on it with all your weight and might, until you feel their little bones crunching, and you hear the last muffled little mew," a surgeon named Jamal tells Italian writer Vittorio Arigoni. Bloodstained boxes are fetched; Jamal opens one. It contains "amputated limbs, legs and arms, some from the knee down, others with the entire femur attached . . . from the injured at the Al Fakhura United Nations school in Jabalia, which resulted in more than 50 casualties."[/quote] It’s not a concentration camp in the Nazi sense of the word. But its still a camp nonetheless. Russia/ German/ American/ Serbian all followed the same model. Israel is happily added to the list. The difference is that there is not an Israeli doctor trying to create Siamese twins out of Arab babies. There are no forced laborers, incinerators and gas chambers. Its only due to the brave efforts of the Flotilla activists and their sacrifice that Israel’s humanitarian catastrophe has been exposed to the world and under deafening criticism, Israel finally allowed Peanut Butter in. [quote]It doesn't matter about competence, it's a matter of if they are trying. If you say having Nukes in general is bad, then the pursuit of nukes is just as bad. It also doesn't matter how many they have or whatever bullshit number you want to make up.[/quote] Iran signed the NPT and is under the eye of IAEA. Israel, the renegade and rogue state that it is, never signed the NPT and is free to build how many ever nukes it wants. A clear and shameful double standard for the world to see. [quote]Your point is wrong because they are not dictators and the US supports them for their peaceful actions. If every country the US supports is a Dictatorship then a fair portion of the middle east and Africa are all Dictatorships. Most of the aid is given because they are a close partner of the US and are a relatively poor country, not because the US is controlling the world through puppet governments.[/quote] They sure are dictators. Foreign Aid and Foreign Policy of America are famously intertwined with many books written on the subject. Arabs are sick and tired of these despots just as much as rest of the world. Here’s Washington Post: [quote] Yet, as al-Jazeera well understands, Mr. Mubarak and his fellow Arab autocrats are widely despised across the region – [b]and the United States is blamed for unconditionally propping them up. In fact, Mr. Bush won credit from many Egyptians for pressing for democratic change; he was criticized because he failed to follow through. Now, Arabs around the region are learning that the Obama administration is returning to the old U.S. policy of ignoring human rights abuses by Arab dictators in exchange for their cooperation on security matters -- that is, the same policy that produced the Middle East of Osama bin Laden, Hamas and Saddam Hussein. Funding for democracy promotion in Egypt has been slashed [b]from $50 million to $20 million this year[/b]. The State Department has agreed to Egyptian demands not to use economic aid to fund civil society organizations not approved by the government. As a result, U.S. funding for pro-democracy and human rights groups will drop by about 70 percent. [/b] [/quote] The article is verbatim of what I’m saying for the past few posts, and is reflective of the general sentiment against US’ broken foreign policy. America propping up despots and acquiescing to their demands to maintain the status quo is nothing new. The 2011 elections in Egypt give me hope. The 21 year state of emergency will be finally lifted, and hopefully ex-IAEA director Elbaradei can win the election and bring some democracy into the bitch. [quote]Its because of alleged Syrian involvement in Rafik Hariri's assassination. It is because Syria is not cooperating with any Peace efforts and is still allegedly supplying weapons to terrorists. Things have always been tense between the two and they aren't going to be giving aid to a country harbouring terrorists.[/quote] Syria is harboring terrorists? That’s a huge allegation and big news to me, same kind of allegations that led to the invasion of Iraq. US recently lifted the travel ban to Syria, and wouldn’t have done so if there were dirty terrists in there. [quote]How do you think world politics works? When a country commits a crime the UN police come and put the entire country in jail? Legitimate concerns are dealt with but no-one has even completely severed relations over them. People condemn Russia occupying Chechnya or China annexing Tibet but it isn't a death sentence for their dimplomatic relations. Many Jews are from western countries and have brought western culture back with them to Israel, Arabs have maintained their own culture which is mostly based around their strict religious beliefs and tribal behaviour. While the culture difference isn't an insurmountable barrier, it helps to identify with them if they are more like you.[/quote] When a country commits crime, its leaders are subject to a war crimes tribunal, tried in international criminal court and sentenced accordingly. The international laws govern what constitutes as crimes and violation of those laws will result in the country being taken by force. Case in point: Serbian president Milosovic, who was engaged in ethnic cleansing of Bosnians was captured by the international military alliance and tried in Hague for war crimes. At least, this is how its supposed to work. But just because it worked in some cases and didn’t work in other cases doesn’t mean its useless. There should always be standards, rules and policies. These rules and standards give a direction to the world opinion and the international community in general. Israel isn’t a normal country like others. Israel is run by religious lunatics drunk on their own piss. They think they are invincible (read: chosen people) and can punish an entire civilian population because someone fired rockets. They think like this because they know that international laws do not apply to them, especially after knowing that the Big Brother in international scene is there to veto any UN resolution against them. This isn’t how normal countries react to international laws. Turkey did not carpet bomb Israel because Israel killed 9 of its civilians. Other countries are not occupying native populations and holding them down under the boot of oppression. Other countries are not illegally building settlements and expanding their borders in occupied lands. Other countries are not building 25 ft high walls trying to cordon the occupied civilian population. Israel lives in a bubble and forever trapped inside it because of the crazed propaganda from the Zionist media. If they stepped outside for a moment, they would realize the magnitude of their errors. [quote]Again, the Gaza wall and the West Bank wall are two different things. The West Bank wall is legitimate, the only issue raised is it's placement. If the wall was moved back to the real borders, it's fine. While I disagree with them putting it there, I am not going to completely drop my support for them because I am not a petty douchebag.[/quote] The construction of the wall itself is illegal under international laws which Israel never fails to violate, if given the opportunity. Its not just my opinion, but the opinion of the International Court of Justice. The court overwhelmingly voted against the establishment of the wall. Let me rephrase that in technical [url=http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6&case=131&k=5a]ICJ’s own conclusion[/url]: [quote] The Court then considers the information furnished to it regarding the impact of the construction of the wall on the daily life of the inhabitants of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (destruction or requisition of private property, restrictions on freedom of movement, confiscation of agricultural land, cutting off of access to primary water sources, etc.). [b] It finds that the construction of the wall and its associated régime are contrary to the relevant provisions of the Hague Regulations of 1907 and of the Fourth Geneva Convention; that they impede the liberty of movement of the inhabitants of the territory as guaranteed by the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights; and that they also impede the exercise by the persons concerned of the right to work, to health, to education and to an adequate standard of living as proclaimed in the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and in the Convention on the Rights of the Child[/b]. Lastly, [b]the Court finds that this construction and its associated régime, coupled with the establishment of settlements, are tending to alter the demographic composition of the Occupied Palestinian Territory[/b] and thereby contravene the Fourth Geneva Convention and the relevant Security Council resolutions. In conclusion, the Court considers that Israel cannot rely on a right of self defence or on a state of necessity in order to preclude the wrongfulness of the construction of the wall. [b]The Court accordingly finds that the construction of the wall and its associated régime are contrary to international law.[/b][/quote] Before ICJ is labeled as anti-semitic, know that they have been established since 1940 and have determined the outcome of some of the most heinous crimes on earth, including the Serbian genocide of Bosnians. [quote] The Wall's path does not follow the "Green Line" which marks the de facto boundary between Israel and the Palestinian territories based upon the situation before the 1967 war. In fact, in some areas it cuts four miles into the West Bank and incorporates approximately half of the illegal Israeli settlement-colonies located in the West Bank. At least 10% of the West Bank will be expropriated by Israel in construction of the Wall. As John Dugard, the Special Rapporteur for Palestine for the UN Commission on Human Rights, states: "The Wall has all the features of a permanent structure. The fact that it will incorporate half of the settler population in the West Bank and East Jerusalem suggests that it is designed to further entrench the position of the settlers. [b]The evidence strongly suggests that Israel is determined to create facts on the ground amounting to de facto annexation."[/b] [/quote] [quote]Stop crying Nazi, it doesn't do anything. The UN didn't call this an atrocity anyway, it's just a violation of land which can be undone easily. I don't know what that second one sounds like to you but to me it's just disaproval and suggested action. If you hear "Israel are Nazis, you should kill them" then that's your problem.[/quote] Suddenly what UN calls the wall is important?? Israel has ignored UN for the past 50 years, but all of a suddent, UN did not call the wall ‘an atrocity’ so that makes the whole thing ok. I don’t understand. “just a violation of land” is one way to put it, but another way to put it is “illegal annexation of West Bank”. The two phrases are obviously related. Building a giant wall through someone’s backyard may not sound terrible to you, but for countless families who are devastated by the debilitating limitations imposed by the wall, it is a reality. Cordoning off a section of a population whose land you are occupying may not sound so drastic, but if you examine the controversy more carefully, you will realize that International Court of Justice, Bt’Selem, Amnesty International, UN, South African Government, and whole host of other Human Rights NGOs and world governments are unified and justified in condemning the construction of this wall. You may label all of them as biased, uninformed, talking heads or anti-semetic but it simply does not change the fact that what Israel has done is [i]wrong[/i] in the court of world opinion. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that what Israel is doing is wrong by every international standard, standards which Israel routinely violates and tramples upon. Its funny how these resolutions are called “suggestions” like how someone would suggest buying a blue shirt over a yellow. I have a new name for the UN: The Suggestion Forming Body of the World. I never said Israelis are Nazis. The Gaza concentration camp is a far cry from the Nazi camps in Europe. There is no comparison between the crimes committed by Nazi Germany and the crimes committed by Israeli government. None. [quote]Alright then, it's wrong that they restrict food supplies (already been taken care of), it's wrong of them to indescriminately bomb sections (action already taken against officers who ordered it), it's wrong for them to further take land (policy of conservative government, does not reflect Israels opinions as a while), it is wrong for them to be careless in their offensives against Hamas (impossible to be 100% careful due to human shields and urban guerilla tactics so there will always be some loss of life) and it is wrong of them to supress Arab immigration (letting thousands of Arabs who possibly want to destroy Israel into the country isn't really a good idea though).[/quote] See, why couldn’t you have said this earlier instead of justifying it? If you had said earlier that it was wrong of IDF to indiscriminately bomb Gaza and wrong of them in being careless about what tactics they use, I would’ve had a different tone altogether. These are the points we agree on. I will let the stuff you have in parenthesis slide for now :p I’m sorry if I’ve called you an IDF shill or something stupid, because reading this stuff makes me truly happy and gives me hope that there [i]is[/i] a way forward, regardless of the varying amount of disagreements from both sides! [quote]How about you point out some of the crimes of Hamas and the Palestinians so we can be sure you aren't just some bleeding heart liberal who supports the side with the highest body count?[/quote] Everyone I’m around with knows that I just as forcefully condemn suicide bombings, rocket attacks, gun attacks and terrorism from Palestinians and Hamas. It is wrong for Hamas to pursue destruction of Israel, if they’re still following their charter. Its wrong for anyone to pursue those things, whether in words or in action. I don’t make it a point to justify their actions, because harming innocent people is evil and whichever side engages in harming innocent people will receive brunt of my criticisms. I’m a bleeding heart, I admit. I’m always, [i]always[/i] on the side of innocents. I’m also always on the side of the poor, the downtrodden and folks who do not have a voice. [quote]Racists say it so it must be racist. Not that it has any kind of base in truth, it has to be comepletely false in every way because it comes from a racist, the scum of the earth. No-one cares about white or black, they are more advanced technologicaly. It's quite absurd to say the Arabs who have lived in the desert for centuries have the same experience in farmlands as people who have lived in them for centuries.[/quote] I’m sorry, but I completely disagree. I disagree with everything that a racist says, no matter how truthful it seems. Whatever they utter from their mouths is formed deep in the hate-filled heart of theirs. The kernel of truth which they seemingly might spew out would have been so tarnished by their ideology that whatever value it once possessed is transformed into a talking point for racial supremacy. We can agree to disagree here, because I would never quote a racist supremacist in my references. [quote]Close but you are still wrong. Back then they were more a more advanced civlilisation (it's still doubtful) but it just goes to show that it's not the people, it's the culture and technology. European culture changed dramaticaly after the Renaissance and the Industrial revolution and became more advanced; not because they were European, but because they had progressed. The people aren't less, it's their culture and level of technology.[/quote] Not sure if I understand this. I think you’re agreeing with me in saying that it’s the human potential to achieve, not the Arab potential, the White potential or the Black potential. [quote] :godwin:[/quote] C’mon, the thread was godwinned on page 3 :p [editline]06:51PM[/editline] [QUOTE=GunFox;22821832]Hey should I start posting what happens when they load 155mm DPICM? Rather than one dead guy, it's an entire block wiped clean. If they wanted to kill them with artillery, they could have. WP marking shells are, by far, the least lethal shell they can launch. Again, they are smoke/marking shells by design. They are not designed to be effective weapons. It is part of the same military doctrine used by the United States. Early pictures of the Iraq war have fucktons of WP smoke being dropped onto cities. You plunge your enemy into chaos through massive amounts of visually crippling smoke. It isn't as effective as conventional shelling, but it kills very few civilians and keeps the enemy destabilized. Bear in mind that if the assault doesn't go like clockwork, then LOTS of civilians die in the resulting drawn out battle. If you can push into the city and take it while the defenders are in total disarray, you wind up with less innocent deaths on your hands in the long run. Herp derp, the military has reasons for actions it takes![/QUOTE] GunFox, we both know that weapons kill. That's not the point of argument. The point is that some weapons such as Napalm, Mustard Gas AND White Phosphorus indiscriminately torture the victims before killing them (in some rare cases, barely leaving them alive). This is why they are banned, because of their indiscriminate and inhumane nature. I'm sure the munitions you mentioned would level an entire block and in some instances leave a worse scar on the victims. But the standards dictate that such weapons don't have an "evil effect" on their victims, such as burning through the skin till the bone marrow dissolves or boiling their eyeballs before killing them. Hence, it was wrong for IDF to have used munitions such as these (which actually do have a use in military) in a civilian zone.
[QUOTE=BigDumbBear;22861951] Which brings me to my next point. I’m sorry if talking about banned weapons like White Phosphorus makes you uncomfortable. Its something that has to be repeated over and over, so people can realize what humane practices IDF engages in. You not only do not condemn its usage, but you justify it just like every other Israeli apologist out there. That makes you nothing but an IDF shill. Bringing some sort of vague moral equivalency from the Palestinian side in the form of “if you support Palestine, you support suicide bombings” is laughably stupid. I unequivocally condemn suicide bombings and targeting of innocent civilians and I don’t hide behind mind numbingly stupid reasons like “the commander didn’t know how hot it was that day!” in order to justify my points. You should get a medal for espousing some of the greatest nonsense put forth by the Israeli propaganda. Probably a medal drenched in Gaza kids’ blood that displays the humane element of the White Phosphorus shells, also known as “marking shells” and “smokescreen”. At least have the spine to condemn their usage instead of embarrassing yourself by saying your inept, buffoon IDF commander didn’t know how hot it was that day. Here’s their “smokescreen” in action, raining down on a residential complex: [img] http://schema-root.org/military/weapons/chemical/white_phosphorus/white_phosphorus_on_gazans.jpg[/img] Here’s another one of their “smokescreen”/ “marking shell” in action: [img] http://pakalert.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/wpchild.jpg[/img] Another one here, raining down on residential areas: [img] http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/806/slide_806_14602_large.jpg[/img] Goddamn that IDF commander! If only he would’ve read the weather section in the Sunday papers! I would buy your ridiculous “bu bu bu bubu it’s a smokescreen!!” argument if their deployment followed with the dispatch of IDF soldiers in the area (yeah, right). If it’s a smokescreen, what’s it screening against? The F-16s that are flying 30,000 ft in the air dropping megaton bombs? Give me a fucking [i]break![/i]. The Phosphorous shells primary usage is for screening and marking. But every justice organization in the universe condemns its usage in civilian zones, a point that thoroughly goes over your head. There’s no point in even justifying its usage. Just come out and say you condemn IDF’s use of WP in Gaza. If you don’t condemn it, you’re worse than the criminal assholes who used it on civilians.[/quote] First I just want to say: [B]HOLY MOTHER OF FUCK THAT'S A LONG POST[/B]. Probably one of the biggest, if not THE biggest posts I've seen on FP, or any other forum. Now, WP was used entirely legally, and was only used as a smokescreen. Israel did send troops in to where it was deployed. If there's anything to complain about it's the laws regarding the use of WP, which allow it to be used in this manner, but don't go complaining to Israel about following international laws on the issue. [quote]Are they credible or not? I mean, which international Human Rights body do you think is “credible”? How about [url= http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2004/02/22/israel-west-bank-barrier-violates-human-rights]Human Rights Watch?[/url][/quote] Don't seem so credible to me: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch[/url] [quote]Your stupid wall can also be bypassed by terrorists. Read the article. Haaretz also reports that Gaza Disengagement Plan also resulted in reduced terrorism. SURPRISE! I mean, who could see that coming???[/quote] Wow, so they changed their policy after the wall was built. If that's coincidence, I don't know what isn't. And yeah, it can be bypassed, if you dig a tunnel or something, which isn't really easy. Just spend the last 20 minutes reading the rest of your post. It's 3:20 AM here and I'm gonna hit the sack, so maybe I'll respond to it tomorrow.
HRW often takes sides in politics and opportunistically uses human rights as a buzzword to throw its weight around. It attacks anything that wouldn't fit snugly with western liberalism. Case in point: It's 'report' on Venezuela, which was filled with so much bullshit even [url=http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2008/12/17-2]over hundred scholars, including Noam Chomsky, didn't like it[/url].
God-fucking-damnit Israel it's not the people in the mother-fucking Gaza strip who are firing shit at you! It's Hamas and all those other militant groups. Stop blaming others for your own shitty mistakes!
Sweet mother of Jesus, BigDumbBear. First; BurnEmDown, [B][URL="http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/03/25/israel-white-phosphorus-use-evidence-war-crimes"]there were no soldiers present WHEN WP was deployed[/URL] [/B](So stop brining it up), proving it was never an obscuration, and two like I said, the people who abused WP [URL="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7010851.ece"]only got a slap on the wrist.[/URL] Literally. [release]"It fired white phosphorus repeatedly over densely populated areas, even when its troops weren't in the area and safer smoke shells were available. As a result, civilians needlessly suffered and died."[/release]
[QUOTE=starpluck;22869772]Sweet mother of Jesus, BigDumbBear. First; BurnEmDown, [B][URL="http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/03/25/israel-white-phosphorus-use-evidence-war-crimes"]there were no soldiers present WHEN WP was deployed[/URL] [/B](So stop brining it up), proving it was never an obscuration, and two like I said, the people who abused WP [URL="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7010851.ece"]only got a slap on the wrist.[/URL] Literally. [release]"It fired white phosphorus repeatedly over densely populated areas, even when its troops weren't in the area and safer smoke shells were available. As a result, civilians needlessly suffered and died."[/release][/QUOTE] I really hate the media. They cause so much fucking trouble because they are irresponsible in their reporting. Firing smoke where you AREN'T is just as necessary as firing smoke where you ARE. If you throw smoke only where you are going to be, then everyone just shoots into that smoke or redeploys to defend that area. You hit numerous areas with smoke so that the enemy cannot have any sort of assurance that they are redeploying to defend against anything other than a cloud of smoke. At worst you divide their forces, at best they focus on an area you aren't attacking from and you can slip past their lines. It's all about the disarray. And there are no safer smoke shell alternatives. WP delivers the best smoke and the largest volume of smoke for the weight possible.
[QUOTE=BigDumbBear;22861951] Here’s their “smokescreen” in action, raining down on a residential complex: [IMG]http://schema-root.org/military/weapons/chemical/white_phosphorus/white_phosphorus_on_gazans.jpg[/IMG] [/QUOTE] Actually that was a UN run school, which was used temporarily to shelter civilians during the last major conflict. They killed two children in the attack and wounded several others.
[QUOTE=Taishu;22871201]Actually that was a UN run school, which was used temporarily to shelter civilians during the last major conflict. They killed two children in the attack and wounded several others.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870087,00.html[/url]
[QUOTE=starpluck;22869772]Sweet mother of Jesus, BigDumbBear. First; BurnEmDown, [B][URL="http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/03/25/israel-white-phosphorus-use-evidence-war-crimes"]there were no soldiers present WHEN WP was deployed[/URL] [/B](So stop brining it up), proving it was never an obscuration, and two like I said, the people who abused WP [URL="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7010851.ece"]only got a slap on the wrist.[/URL] Literally. [release]"It fired white phosphorus repeatedly over densely populated areas, even when its troops weren't in the area and safer smoke shells were available. As a result, civilians needlessly suffered and died."[/release][/QUOTE] Why do you continue to base your claims on HRW when they don't know shit? At least you have to agree that they don't know shit about anything military-related, which would make their entire arguments about WP just weak and unconvincing.
[QUOTE=starpluck;22871373][URL]http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870087,00.html[/URL][/QUOTE] Exactly. They had even given the coordinates to the Israeli military beforehand, so they really is no excuse. Either the Israeli military is extremely incompetent, or they hit civilians on purpose.
[QUOTE=Taishu;22871201]Actually that was a UN run school, which was used temporarily to shelter civilians during the last major conflict. They killed two children in the attack and wounded several others.[/QUOTE] My bad. I googled White Phosphorus+Gaza and this pic was the most prominent in results. The fact that it was a [i]UN based school/Refugee camp[/i] is even more horrible.
[QUOTE=BigDumbBear;22876840]My bad. I googled White Phosphorus+Gaza and this pic was the most prominent in results. The fact that it was a [i]UN based school/Refugee camp[/i] is even more horrible.[/QUOTE] The entire strip is a civilian zone. Anywhere they plopped those down would be in a civilian populated area. If it wasn't a school it would have been a mosque, if it wasn't a mosque it would have been a marketplace, if it wasn't a marketplace it would have been a living room. This is what happens when your government elects to rely entirely on a non-uniformed guerrilla military. If you hide amongst civilians, don't be surprised when the other side shoots them up to get to you. Unintentionally or otherwise. Hamas is using its own people as human shields.
[QUOTE=GunFox;22877338] Hamas is using its own people as human shields.[/QUOTE] Unless that wasn't a simile, you just confused the IDF with Hamas.
[QUOTE=starpluck;22877397]Unless that wasn't a simile, you just confused the IDF with Hamas.[/QUOTE] So they are shooting rockets and mortars from firebases and have a uniformed military with defined military installations. It's LESS OF A CRIME in Israel to kill soldiers than it is to kill civilians. It was passed in the desperate hope that terrorist attackers would start to prefer military installations. That's how bad Hamas and friends were. Yes. Sure sounds like a society dedicated to using its own people as human shields.
[QUOTE=GunFox;22877435]So they are shooting rockets and mortars from firebases and have a uniformed military with defined military installations. It's LESS OF A CRIME in Israel to kill soldiers than it is to kill civilians. It was passed in the desperate hope that terrorist attackers would start to prefer military installations. That's how bad Hamas and friends were. Yes. Sure sounds like a society dedicated to using its own people as human shields.[/QUOTE] First, Hamas does have a uniform, they're is not an militia. [IMG]http://www.seraphicpress.com/images/hamas-parade.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Everyone%20Else/images/hamas-soldiers.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://myminddroppings.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/qassam-launch.jpg[/IMG] 2. There was no evidence proving that Hamas did fire from civilian infrastructure at all. In fact, there evidence proving they didn't. 3. I meant literal, Israel literally, uses civilians as human shields right in front of them. Despite the ban, the practice still continues, oh and look at this. [URL]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm[/URL]
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