• DRAIN THE SWAMP - Mike Pence axes all lobbyists from Trump Transition Team
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[QUOTE='[sluggo];51388963']Neither side was perfect, either was far from it - but your own post showcases the utterly noninclusive, "us against them" mentality that the Trump camp have been referring to. "But now we have historical revisionism from [b]every mildly pro trump person[/b]" Even now you're making broad, angry generalization and accusations against Trump's supporters. Some on the right are guilty of the same thing, sure, but the narrative of left leaning media was to present constant and unerring character attacks on Trump and his backers. Again and again words like "racist," "bigot," "homophobe," "islamophobe," "sexist," and more were thrown around until they lost a lot of their meaning - especially too the communities they were aimed at. They became left wing buzzwords. You're going to accuse me of putting words in your mouth here, but what I saw time and time again can basically be summed up as: "How can you even support that bigot. What the hell is wrong with you?" Many on the left had this disdainful, condescending attitude towards the right this election cycle. Trumps voters were either uneducated bible thumping rednecks, or "alt right bigots."[/QUOTE] No argument there that we were part of the problem. But it wasn't a one sided problem. My post there may seem generalistic but it's not because it's not just Trump people, it's Clinton people too. The issue isn't that it's Trump people or not. It's the historical revisionism
[QUOTE=Primigenes;51388972][/QUOTE] "every mildly pro trump person" "[b]some[/b] clinton voters"
[QUOTE='[sluggo];51388988']"every mildly pro trump person" "[b]some[/b] clinton voters"[/QUOTE] Because i'm a "clinton" poster but I don't fall into the trap of blaming all the hostility on just one side Some do It's not an indictment of every single person who's ever been pro trump it's an indictment of the sentiment of historical revisionism that is plain to see you're focusing on one thing, to ignore the issue at hand
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51388971]No argument there that we were part of the problem. But it wasn't a one sided problem. My post there may seem generalistic but it's not because it's not just Trump people, it's Clinton people too. The issue isn't that it's Trump people or not. It's the historical revisionism[/QUOTE] I can see that on both sides - after the election passing everyone is motivated to generalize and create their own narrative of what won and what lost the election. They all want to sum things up in few broad cultural trends - and fitting things to a cookie cutter narrative often requires a degree of historical revisionism. I think part of what the right is seeing as more open communities on their side comes from the idea that Trump supporters had optimism - they had a campaign with a lot of momentum, that was strongly in favor of many of their ideals. The left had, at least online - "yeah we know Clinton sucks but vote for her anyway," as well as a lot of revisionism to cover up that they had hated her as much as anyone when they had Bernie as a alternative. Overall a lot of the progressive left was a pretty dour community.
[QUOTE='[sluggo];51389009']I can see that on both sides - after the election passing everyone is motivated to generalize and create their own narrative of what won and what lost the election. They all want to sum things up in few broad cultural trends - and fitting things to a cookie cutter narrative often requires a degree of historical revisionism. I think part of what the right is seeing as more open communities on their side comes from the idea that Trump supporters had optimism - they had a campaign with a lot of momentum, that was strongly in favor of many of their ideals. The left had, at least online - "yeah we know Clinton sucks but vote for her anyway," as well as a lot of revisionism to cover up that they had hated her as much as anyone when they had Bernie as a alternative. Overall a lot of the progressive left was a pretty dour community.[/QUOTE] The DNC fucked bernie over but we didn't know that until it was literally legally too late to change anything on a presidential campaign scale I've just seen far too many posts that go to the effect of "The left drove people to Trump through hostility, the right had none of that" when I know, first hand that the right had a huge, huge amount of hostility on display. I don't think the left is blameless, definitely not, but it's not a one sided issue as either side might have you believe
[QUOTE=Hick2;51385246]Nail on head with this. I went from being utterly apathetic to hoping Trump won due to how many people starting looking down on Trump supporters here and on other sites. So many people for the last 15 months haven't tried to engage in proper debate to convince people to their side, instead they tried to shame, insult and patronize people away from making their own choice.[/QUOTE] I got a looked down for being a Clinton supporter and insulted a lot here too when all I wanted to do was debate policy. Ain't a one way street my man. [editline]17th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51389017]The DNC fucked bernie over but we didn't know that until it was literally legally too late to change anything on a presidential campaign scale I've just seen far too many posts that go to the effect of "The left drove people to Trump through hostility, the right had none of that" when I know, first hand that the right had a huge, huge amount of hostility on display. I don't think the left is blameless, definitely not, but it's not a one sided issue as either side might have you believe[/QUOTE] There is definitely a lot of "ivory tower" liberalism at play (see: the map where red states are called Dumbfuckistan, neglecting the fact that a number of those states were blue in 2008 and 2012) but it's generalizing and historical revisionism to say that "the left" looked down and insulted and was petty towards Trump supporters. People on the left, especially those who made the case for Clinton over Trump, caught just as much shit as ya'll guys did. It was an ugly election.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51389017]The DNC fucked bernie over but we didn't know that until it was literally legally too late to change anything on a presidential campaign scale I've just seen far too many posts that go to the effect of "The left drove people to Trump through hostility, the right had none of that" when I know, first hand that the right had a huge, huge amount of hostility on display. I don't think the left is blameless, definitely not, but it's not a one sided issue as either side might have you believe[/QUOTE] I think it's important to focus on overall trends. The right was a much more bright and happy place this election cycle. They had the promise of change and momentum. The left didn't. The left also had the attitude of "trump is a bigot and his supporters are supporting a bigot," whereas the right was all like "oooooh cool we got a gay guy to vote trump do an ama" As much as Trumps policy was flawed and poorly thought out bellow the surface level, his backers at least had interesting policy to be supportive of. So much of the left's narrative was character attacks. When did you ever see someone genuinely excited about Clinton? I didn't. The right was definitely guilty of character attacks too, mostly against Clinton - not at her supporters so much though. And the narrative of attacks against Clinton slowly transformed into an indictment of the establishment as a whole (of which she was emblematic.) My overall thesis is that, although both sides were at fault, in the online sphere the left's election narrative was one of reluctant stagnation and negativity - whereas the right's was one that at least offered some change. And a hell of a lot less buzzwords.
[QUOTE='[sluggo];51389052']I think it's important to focus on overall trends. The right was a much more bright and happy place this election cycle. They had the promise of change and momentum. The left didn't. The left also had the attitude of "trump is a bigot and his supporters are supporting a bigot," whereas the right was all like "oooooh cool we got a gay guy to vote trump do an ama" As much as Trumps policy was flawed and poorly thought out bellow the surface level, his backers at least had interesting policy to be supportive of. So much of the left's narrative was character attacks. When did you ever see someone genuinely excited about Clinton? I didn't. The right was definitely guilty of character attacks too, mostly against Clinton - not at her supporters so much though. And the narrative of attacks against Clinton slowly transformed into an indictment of the establishment as a whole and of which she was emblematic. My overall thesis is that, although both sides were at fault, in the online sphere the left's election narrative was one of reluctant stagnation and negativity - whereas the right's was one that at least offered some change. And a hell of a lot less buzzwords.[/QUOTE] The number of times I was called a flat out shill is too many for people who weren't targeting her supporters. There was a clear line of reasoning from the likes of JohnFischer, Billymays, Wystan, BIGFATWHITELUMP, and a variety of other posters that was just as divisive, insulting as anything the left threw
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51389063]The number of times I was called a flat out shill is too many for people who weren't targeting her supporters. There was a clear line of reasoning from the likes of JohnFischer, Billymays, Wystan, BIGFATWHITELUMP, and a variety of other posters that was just as divisive, insulting as anything the left threw[/QUOTE] Fat white lump was like a robot designed to spew out trump quotes. If by any chance trump hired shills, he was one of them. There was some hostility towards Clinton supporters, sure - I think most of it I saw came against anyone who defended her from the scandals and corruption allegations. A lot was from ex Bernie supporters, who found an odd camaraderie with the trump crew. It's being called a shill vs being called a racist of sexist or ____ist
I went out of my way, twice, to disagree with someone on the left and make it a point that most Trump supporters I've talked to and seen online aren't bigoted [editline]17th November 2016[/editline] According to Hick2 tho the model for conversation and debate should be r/the_donald so when 2020 rolls around lets just ban any dissenting opinions against Trumps re-election, because opinions that disagree with mine are mean :(
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51389099]I went out of my way, twice, to disagree with someone on the left and make it a point that most Trump supporters I've talked to and seen online aren't bigoted [editline]17th November 2016[/editline] According to Hick2 tho the model for conversation and debate should be r/the_donald so when 2020 rolls around lets just ban any dissenting opinions against Trumps re-election, because opinions that disagree with mine are mean :([/QUOTE] I sent you a PM on one instance (I'm pretty certain it was you) thanking you for not being an asshat like so many on both sides were doing. Then you go taking away something I never meant to convey in any way. I honestly think you're one of the cleaner posters from the last few months, you have personally changed my opinion on one or two things so I'm sorry I posted that okay :) God forbid Facepunch becomes like The_Donald. I like this place, it doesn't get as hugboxy as other websites, there is shit-flinging because of it but Facepunch is the last social account I'd ever give up simple because of the broad spectrum of opinions. What I liked about them was by and large I saw plenty of discussion over the course of the last months of the election there. My experience was that there was plenty of disagreement among the rainbow of political affiliations that ended up in that place, shit-flinging was rarer, where there was, more commonly people were able to [I]stop[/I] at that and agree where they could. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51388750]No I'm sick of this shit. I got called a shill. I got called a liar, I got called all sorts of names by the right, the idea that [B]ONLY[/B] the left slung shit is factually untrue. Sure the left did, far too many, and I was part of that But now we have historical revisionism from every mildly pro trump person to some clinton voters saying "Nah the right never argued from a position of bad faith, no, the right did everything right, they couldn't have insulted you or dismissed your opinion off hand, that's only for the left!" it's such a bunch of bullshit.[/QUOTE] I wasn't pro-trump or pro-clinton at the start of this election. If anything I liked what Bernie had to say but that was it really. What made me want Trump to win in the end was just the endless shit-flinging, through my eyes, that shit was primarily (not exclusively) going left to right, not the other way around. If you feel different I won't tell you that you're wrong, because when I get down to it, I really just don't trawl through foreign politics. People start playing up this huge divide between the left and right when for the first election that I can remember this seemed like any one person could go across party lines and vote for who they felt was best. This ended with people trying to throw insults based on parties that weren't that prominent and people were not identifying with. Liberals ended up attacking Liberals and Conservatives attacked Conservatives. I am really disconnected from all these high stakes people were going on and on and on about. What happens in America doesn't directly impact me, Brexit impacted me, who I voted for in my own elections will impact me. I live in the dipshit middle of nowhere, maybe that's why people don't endlessly slander each other over difference in opinion and devolve into two sides screaming "wrong!" at each other here. Like it or not, everyone you meet (online or not) could potentially have voted Trump and you find that unforgivable, Trump supporters might find the fact you supported Clinton unforgivable. Kick on, in less than a year people are going to be relatively back to normal here and all the hate between both sides will start to fade. We are all part of the same community, your neighbours or friends who voted the other way are going to be there for a long time. I've never been a person to judge someone solely on their political leanings, people are wondrous things and it's a shit thing to do when you reduce people to labels like Left or Right (I dislike using them in this post). That's the point I wanted to convey in a way. When I made that post I wasn't trying to piss everyone off, I wasn't implying that You or Raidyr or RIPBILLYMAYS or who ever else were the people I referred to when I made it, whether anyone liked it or not this election dominated everything, it got so intertwined with everything online seeming to be pushing you towards Trump or Clinton. I only know what I ended up seeing, whether that was SH full of Anti-Trump/Clinton/Obama/Santa Claus posts every day or Reddit being the liberal hugbox that it is and The_Donald being interesting enough to get me reading what they pushed as well. I feel like I'm completely alone sometimes in SH when I can't say I've ever made mortal enemies because someone liked Le Orange Man or Crooked 'Illary. I don't want to attack people based on who they liked more. I don't think anyone here was a shill, I don't think people should be called a liar unless they are proved to be doing so. The weird thing is, like I said, I didn't post that to get people riled up and angry but I knew people would anyway because the slightest hint of bias here or anywhere on the internet ends up getting attacked. Looking back, I wish I hadn't posted it and just not got involved. [QUOTE=Mingebox;51388707]What a crock of shit. You know what? I [I]wish [/I]most Trump supporters really were just a bunch of bigots, because I find even that less sad than people who just competely and utterly surrender themselves to the consumption and regurgitation of vacuous, pandering rhetoric and sloganeering. To anyone with the slightest capacity for critical thinking, it's clear as day how shallow the Trump persona is, and volatile and inconsistent his views and values are. But people like you are just so desperate for something or someone to belive in that they'll fall for the most flimsy, obvious cults of personality imaginable. You embrace blind fanaticism and call it "optimism" and "high energy," regurgitate propaganda and call it a "meme fest," and immersive yourself in a hugbox where nobody will tell you "he speaks his mind" competely meaningless.[/QUOTE] Case in point. I didn't "fall" for rhetoric or pandering because I'm not American and don't have an American mindset, I don't identify particularly as anything other than as myself. Are you really getting this angry because I liked browsing a subreddit because what I saw the first few times was enough to convince me "hey this ain't so bad". It's not like I locked the door and browsed The_Donald 24/7 until the 11th of November and got brainwashed. Trump of course wasn't a great candidate, otherwise everyone would have voted for him, as it stands the guy didn't even win the popular vote. People in The_Donald liked his shit, I liked some of what he had to say sure, I liked some of what Hillary had to say too. What made me want Trump to win more was the fact that when I posted and asked questions and expressed my goddamn opinion I didn't get someone start saying how much I lack critical thinking and desperate for something to believe, I got answers about their opinions and how they thought things were with the election. It's not like I didn't see posts exactly the same as yours from Trump supporters but those are the idiots that you seem to have grouped me up in straight away. You've managed to label me from one single post as desperate, gullible, fanatic and as someone so incapable of dealing with debate I'll jump in the ball pit of non-conflicting ideals. I see this pretty often here, a metric fuck ton more than I ever saw from The_Donald and that's what I liked about it, hugbox or not, I said in my original post, I just wanted to get into those discussions without whatever kind of post this is every time I state an opinion to defend myself and endlessly clarify what I mean because people are going to jump on it. So call me whatever you like if it makes you feel like you're vindicated in your opinion of Trump supporters, I liked them even if I had reservations about Trump himself. That's why I wanted Trump to win, because yes, I picked a side. I picked the side that was far less hostile in their reactions to the other side opening their mouth and saying their piece, both sides did it, don't start insinuating that I'm saying they didn't. This is why I rarely post here during passionate discussion because people like you divide people into "my side" and "not my side". When this all began I didn't have a side, I didn't even care that much. I don't like spouting this particular opinion often because someone will take offence and start telling me how wrong I am, I'm on Facepunch to discuss things I care about. Not get into these kind of meaningless arguments, it is so indicative of the general hostility here right now that people have to put [B]"not trying to start an argument but"[/B] loud and very clear on their posts because they're worried that Left or Right, someone is going to jump down their throat as soon as they open their mouth exactly like you've done here. If you think that sitting here telling me how much you just [I]hate[/I] Trump supporters because they're all dumb shits who wanted to have a community where they could be passionate, discuss shit and god forbid make memes and have some fun while they're doing it, is going to make me change my opinion on how hostile I feel the non-Trump side of this election was then you've spectacularly failed. In the end this is exactly what I was talking about, I didn't want a hugbox but I also didn't want a political cage match every five minutes much, much more. So yeah, I enjoyed my time reading what The_Donald had to offer over the course of this election. Shame me for it if you like, I imagine by the time Trump is sworn in I'll just be right back to browsing LMAO Pics and GGD with my opinions on politics locked away again until the next shitfest infects the internet.
[QUOTE=Hick2;51391191]I sent you a PM on one instance (I'm pretty certain it was you) thanking you for not being an asshat like so many on both sides were doing. Then you go taking away something I never meant to convey in any way. I honestly think you're one of the cleaner posters from the last few months, you have personally changed my opinion on one or two things so I'm sorry I posted that okay :) God forbid Facepunch becomes like The_Donald. I like this place, it doesn't get as hugboxy as other websites, there is shit-flinging because of it but Facepunch is the last social account I'd ever give up simple because of the broad spectrum of opinions. What I liked about them was by and large I saw plenty of discussion over the course of the last months of the election there. My experience was that there was plenty of disagreement among the rainbow of political affiliations that ended up in that place, shit-flinging was rarer, where there was, more commonly people were able to [I]stop[/I] at that and agree where they could. [/QUOTE] Fair enough. I read too much into what you posted. My overall point was that the reason the_donald seems more open to conversation and less antagonistic is because you have to agree with the hivemind to even continue posting. Some people here like that, it's clear you don't actually see that as a good model. Sorry for assuming.
You wrote a lot but not a lot of it was relevant
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51391555]You wrote a lot but not a lot of it was relevant[/QUOTE] Eh. Sometimes I start venting and miss the point of what I was driving at in the first place. Just trying to clear myself up since a few took issue with the first post. That's also why I don't post much and tend to get 90% of the way through a post and then decide against it because I think people will find it irrelevant, thanks for reading it at least.
[QUOTE=Hick2;51391582]Eh. Sometimes I start venting and miss the point of what I was driving at in the first place. Just trying to clear myself up since a few took issue with the first post. That's also why I don't post much and tend to get 90% of the way through a post and then decide against it because I think people will find it irrelevant, thanks for reading it at least.[/QUOTE] I didn't mean to come off hostile with my initial post to you, but I'm just a bit frustrated with the blame game really. Sorry dude, don't feel you can't post or comment
[QUOTE=Hick2;51391191]I sent you a PM on one instance (I'm pretty certain it was you) thanking you for not being an asshat like so many on both sides were doing. Then you go taking away something I never meant to convey in any way. I honestly think you're one of the cleaner posters from the last few months, you have personally changed my opinion on one or two things so I'm sorry I posted that okay :) God forbid Facepunch becomes like The_Donald. I like this place, it doesn't get as hugboxy as other websites, there is shit-flinging because of it but Facepunch is the last social account I'd ever give up simple because of the broad spectrum of opinions. What I liked about them was by and large I saw plenty of discussion over the course of the last months of the election there. My experience was that there was plenty of disagreement among the rainbow of political affiliations that ended up in that place, shit-flinging was rarer, where there was, more commonly people were able to [I]stop[/I] at that and agree where they could. I wasn't pro-trump or pro-clinton at the start of this election. If anything I liked what Bernie had to say but that was it really. What made me want Trump to win in the end was just the endless shit-flinging, through my eyes, that shit was primarily (not exclusively) going left to right, not the other way around. If you feel different I won't tell you that you're wrong, because when I get down to it, I really just don't trawl through foreign politics. People start playing up this huge divide between the left and right when for the first election that I can remember this seemed like any one person could go across party lines and vote for who they felt was best. This ended with people trying to throw insults based on parties that weren't that prominent and people were not identifying with. Liberals ended up attacking Liberals and Conservatives attacked Conservatives. I am really disconnected from all these high stakes people were going on and on and on about. What happens in America doesn't directly impact me, Brexit impacted me, who I voted for in my own elections will impact me. I live in the dipshit middle of nowhere, maybe that's why people don't endlessly slander each other over difference in opinion and devolve into two sides screaming "wrong!" at each other here. Like it or not, everyone you meet (online or not) could potentially have voted Trump and you find that unforgivable, Trump supporters might find the fact you supported Clinton unforgivable. Kick on, in less than a year people are going to be relatively back to normal here and all the hate between both sides will start to fade. We are all part of the same community, your neighbours or friends who voted the other way are going to be there for a long time. I've never been a person to judge someone solely on their political leanings, people are wondrous things and it's a shit thing to do when you reduce people to labels like Left or Right (I dislike using them in this post). That's the point I wanted to convey in a way. When I made that post I wasn't trying to piss everyone off, I wasn't implying that You or Raidyr or RIPBILLYMAYS or who ever else were the people I referred to when I made it, whether anyone liked it or not this election dominated everything, it got so intertwined with everything online seeming to be pushing you towards Trump or Clinton. I only know what I ended up seeing, whether that was SH full of Anti-Trump/Clinton/Obama/Santa Claus posts every day or Reddit being the liberal hugbox that it is and The_Donald being interesting enough to get me reading what they pushed as well. I feel like I'm completely alone sometimes in SH when I can't say I've ever made mortal enemies because someone liked Le Orange Man or Crooked 'Illary. I don't want to attack people based on who they liked more. I don't think anyone here was a shill, I don't think people should be called a liar unless they are proved to be doing so. The weird thing is, like I said, I didn't post that to get people riled up and angry but I knew people would anyway because the slightest hint of bias here or anywhere on the internet ends up getting attacked. Looking back, I wish I hadn't posted it and just not got involved. Case in point. I didn't "fall" for rhetoric or pandering because I'm not American and don't have an American mindset, I don't identify particularly as anything other than as myself. Are you really getting this angry because I liked browsing a subreddit because what I saw the first few times was enough to convince me "hey this ain't so bad". It's not like I locked the door and browsed The_Donald 24/7 until the 11th of November and got brainwashed. Trump of course wasn't a great candidate, otherwise everyone would have voted for him, as it stands the guy didn't even win the popular vote. People in The_Donald liked his shit, I liked some of what he had to say sure, I liked some of what Hillary had to say too. What made me want Trump to win more was the fact that when I posted and asked questions and expressed my goddamn opinion I didn't get someone start saying how much I lack critical thinking and desperate for something to believe, I got answers about their opinions and how they thought things were with the election. It's not like I didn't see posts exactly the same as yours from Trump supporters but those are the idiots that you seem to have grouped me up in straight away. You've managed to label me from one single post as desperate, gullible, fanatic and as someone so incapable of dealing with debate I'll jump in the ball pit of non-conflicting ideals. I see this pretty often here, a metric fuck ton more than I ever saw from The_Donald and that's what I liked about it, hugbox or not, I said in my original post, I just wanted to get into those discussions without whatever kind of post this is every time I state an opinion to defend myself and endlessly clarify what I mean because people are going to jump on it. So call me whatever you like if it makes you feel like you're vindicated in your opinion of Trump supporters, I liked them even if I had reservations about Trump himself. That's why I wanted Trump to win, because yes, I picked a side. I picked the side that was far less hostile in their reactions to the other side opening their mouth and saying their piece, both sides did it, don't start insinuating that I'm saying they didn't. This is why I rarely post here during passionate discussion because people like you divide people into "my side" and "not my side". When this all began I didn't have a side, I didn't even care that much. I don't like spouting this particular opinion often because someone will take offence and start telling me how wrong I am, I'm on Facepunch to discuss things I care about. Not get into these kind of meaningless arguments, it is so indicative of the general hostility here right now that people have to put [B]"not trying to start an argument but"[/B] loud and very clear on their posts because they're worried that Left or Right, someone is going to jump down their throat as soon as they open their mouth exactly like you've done here. If you think that sitting here telling me how much you just [I]hate[/I] Trump supporters because they're all dumb shits who wanted to have a community where they could be passionate, discuss shit and god forbid make memes and have some fun while they're doing it, is going to make me change my opinion on how hostile I feel the non-Trump side of this election was then you've spectacularly failed. In the end this is exactly what I was talking about, I didn't want a hugbox but I also didn't want a political cage match every five minutes much, much more. So yeah, I enjoyed my time reading what The_Donald had to offer over the course of this election. Shame me for it if you like, I imagine by the time Trump is sworn in I'll just be right back to browsing LMAO Pics and GGD with my opinions on politics locked away again until the next shitfest infects the internet.[/QUOTE] I've said it a dozen times before, but politics isn't just favorite ice cream flavors. It's about who should have the power to make decisions that affect millions of lives, and if you don't like having to defend that sort of opinion, then maybe you should stick to ice cream flavors. You can bet I'm going to be hostile to people who want to be "passionate" and "have fun" when it's to further the goals of a lying, temperamental, corrupt egomaniac. Perhaps a handful of his supporters actually said something to the effect of him just because slightly less bad than Hillary, and half of those that did would revert to spouting memes and slogans the next post. All that "positivity" and "optimism" is just the wool on the wolf promoting a terrible human being- not because he's the lesser of two evils, but because you legitimately like him.
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