After Brussels Attacks, Poland Turns Away Immigrants - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Tamschi;50011547]Thanks! While that's a little less thorough than I had hoped for (:v:) I can already tell that proch wasn't right with his comment considering the larger picture.[/QUOTE] Well, PiS won with 37% so he's not really wrong saying that only 30% of people wanted the current govt. It seems that he is wrong saying that most people who voted for PiS are old though.

While discussing the election don't forget the turnout. Which was close to 50%. Then we go 50% times 37% and we can see it's not what it seems at first. And, to be honest, I still believe the government won't actually reject any refugees and will just accept the quotas which have been established for quite some time now. And then all the refugees will go to Germany instead.

[QUOTE=Tamschi;50011255][emphasis mine] Would you like to retract your previous statement?[/QUOTE] Not really. [quote]Poland, like Germany, has a church that is interlinked with the state. Neither of our countries is truly secular. That said... I was under the impression Poland was one of the countries that officially cited their majority religion as reasoning for not taking refugees, but it appears I was mistaken. For this I apologise. However, the PiS appears to promote a religiously motivated reasoning against taking refugees at least to some extent, so for the party and their voters I criticise here (where Christian, which statistically [I]must[/I] exist (see below and the poll(?) you posted)) my argument still holds just fine. [/quote] I think there is a miss-conception. As far as I am aware(feel free to call me out on it if I'm mistaken), PiS doesn't really talk about religion that much. It's just that religious people tend to be more often right-leaning that those that aren't. I personally don't recall such reasoning coming out of their outlets. [quote]Additionally, it applies through sheer statistics to a significant part of the population, because when you have >87.5% Christians but >50% of Polish people who reject taking refugees, that amounts to at least 37.5% of Polish people being hypocrites regarding their religion. This is the main thing that irks me, and I don't think I ever alleged this towards you or the Polish in general. [/quote] Those statistics are highly inflated, and are a subject of debate year after year here in Poland. People claim to be christian because they were born and raised in those families. They might say they're christian but don't really practice the faith. Besides that, you just assumed that only Christians don't want refugees here. Unless my brain stopped working just now, because of sleep depravation. It makes you come acress as a pretty naive if you think people follow Christaity's dogmas so strictly as say, Islam or Buddhism. It's a comparatively very relaxed religion, mainly because the vast majority of Christians live in countries that don't inflict any form of social pressure to practice faith. As such, people don't tend to try solving every matter by the reading the bible. I am seriously starting to feel like you have a hateboner towards Christians. [quote]In your first post you alleged I was talking about a "THE GOVERNMENT boogeyman". I'd like to clarify that I mean this purely in its functional role and previously explicitly stated intentions. In both of our [I]representative[/I] democracies, the people don't have much [I]immediate[/I] say on policy afaik, so it makes sense to speak of the people who decide things hands-on specifically in this case. I honestly don't get what your problem is with that, considering I'd say the exact same regardless of location or political affiliation. (Feel free to comb through my post history to verify this.)[/quote] I didn't really mean anything by that, I am just tired of this whole situation being painted as the second rising of hitler by everyone in europe. People say that "PiS is evil!"(just a theoretical example) etc. etc. but it was us, the people who wanted them there, so are we therfore the evil ones? Politics is like bussiness, the parties cater towards the people. [quote] In your second one you rejected my initial post based on a prejudice (or at least a very avoidable misunderstanding). As I said above, you're just plain mistaken about my intentions. In this one you accused me of stereotyping you. That's demonstrably false. I not even once said something about you as a person or individual, other than criticising your prejudice against me. I don't think we ever interacted before either, so this must not be something against me personally on your part; Hence my usage of plural when I told you "You make way too many assumptions when reading others' messages.". If you for some reason hold a grudge against me personally I apologise for the generalisation but demand an explanation.[/quote] This might've been my mistake when it comes to the structure of the sentence. I wasn't talking about stereotypization of me, but rather the people who voted for them, as "morally bankrupt", pretty rich. Concerning me, you assumed I had to be a close-minded person. Based on what? [quote]Normally when I post anything in German I translate it, and if there are political parties involved I sum up their general stances too. I know this is a reply specifically to proch, but I'm still interested in learning more in this situation. I'm sure that if there's some glaring flaw in my logic that I'm not seeing, it can be cleared up that way too.[/quote] You got the anwser from WhyNott, one thing I'd like to add though is that I wouldn't call PO as centre-right, at least I don't see them as. They're more like centre-left, or at least VERY centre-right In the end I'd like to point out that I have nothing against you, I just get heated up sometimes in my rethoric when talking over the internet. And please, stop using such big words like prejudice and hipocrisy to dehumanise people trying to approach this matter other than you. The generalisation factor is off the charts here. True there are people who can be taken as such, but also, a lot of those people who are against it because of genuine concer for their families or country. There are petty reasons and not so petty. You could argue the matter for hundred of pages though. [editline]27th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Trebgarta;50011431]Point I want to emphasize that, Bananamed, you said "government boogeyman". Boogeyman is, by definition, an imaginary evil character. Now tell, is PiS right-wing? Is PiS by core Roman Catholic? Is PiS Eurosceptic? Does PiS oppose immigrants? These are our assumptions, and if yes, Tamschi was right and there is no "boogeyman" involved. If you wanna see an example of boogeyman, check Dzonintz's post about "Leftist progressives".[/QUOTE] I have absolutely no idea, what you are trying to tell me with this post. Are you implying that any of that, is inherently bad? Are you saying that anyone who dissagrees with your point of view on those matters is evil?

You guys know that this is exactly what the terrorists want, right? They want to induce terror. This only gives them more ammo to get people to join their cause.

[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;50012429]You guys know that this is exactly what the terrorists want, right? They want to induce terror.[/QUOTE] Can we not, please?

[QUOTE=BananaMed;50012445]Can we not, please?[/QUOTE] How dare we talk about politics on a political-centrered thread. Seriously though, I was just giving in my 2 cents.

PiS is the crazy American Republican Party of Europe. Like Trump plus a lot of absurdly Cruz-esque homophobia and religious pandering. Strongly nationalistic, repeatedly saying outrageous shit, and want to back out of trade/border agreements. They're nuts. Homophobic, xenophobic, nationalistic, etc. "LGBT organizations are sending transsexuals to kindergartens and asking children to change their sex" - Roman Giertych, PiS. In March 2007 Roman Giertych proposed a bill that would ban homosexual people from the teaching profession and would also allow sacking those teachers who promote "the culture of homosexual lifestyle." I mean PiS is better than LPR, but still. They're far-right, which isn't necessarily bad, but they're essentially the same type of asshole far-right politicians you see in the US. They're homophobic, xenophobic, nationalistic far-right assholes. They want to restrict birth control, ban gays, seriously limit sex ed, and all sorts of things that restrict freedoms, all in the name of "fighting gender ideology." One of the most actively regressive nations in Europe, probably in the world.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5CETMV4nz0[/media] Honestly kind of interesting how in-depth these arguments are getting. Learning so much about Poland.

[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;50012429]You guys know that this is exactly what the terrorists want, right? They want to induce terror. This only gives them more ammo to get people to join their cause.[/QUOTE] Any factual sources would be nice, since people keep spouting this load of crap yet I can't find it anywhere apart from hyper-liberal FB comments. And even then, that's such a fucking stupid logic that I can't even comprehend it. Hypothetically blacks and niche SJW groups are being oppressed, do you see them joining ISIS and other extremist groups because of it?

[QUOTE=WhyNott;50011586]Well, PiS won with 37% so he's not really wrong saying that only 30% of people wanted the current govt. It seems that he is wrong saying that most people who voted for PiS are old though.[/QUOTE] This is something that always irked me. With a turn out of 50%, obviously half of our population doesn't care who rules, or they couln't vote at the time due to carious circumstances. This is why you omitt those people in the final turn out, and why there's no "no one" option on the voting ballot. And since the statistical error is in effect here, with such a big sample rate, even if those people voted(the ones who couldn't), the results wouldn't change at all, or minimally. Edit: Quoted the wrong post here. Disregard this post.

[QUOTE=Dzonintz;50012503]Any factual sources would be nice, since people keep spouting this load of crap yet I can't find it anywhere apart from hyper-liberal FB comments. And even then, that's such a fucking stupid logic that I can't even comprehend it. Hypothetically blacks and niche SJW groups are being oppressed, do you see them joining ISIS and other extremist groups because of it?[/QUOTE] it could be bent to look like islamphobia. That's just common sense on my end. Jesus fuck how is "terrorists want to create terror" stupid logic. All I said was that scapegoating on this issue is exactly what they want.

[QUOTE=BananaMed;50012445]Can we not, please?[/QUOTE] Why not? His post is actually on topic, the majority of the rest are hardly so. It takes extensive if not insane mental gymnastics to lump refugees and ISIS members together, and despite that Visengrad governments have been able to do it quite successfully.

[QUOTE=phaedon;50012531]Why not? His post is actually on topic, the majority of the rest are hardly so. It takes extensive if not insane mental gymnastics to lump refugees and ISIS members together, and despite that Visengrad governments have been able to do it quite successfully.[/QUOTE] I just would like to not see in this thread, this ever present conundrum concerning the immigration, because if you let those people in, you are possibly jeopardizing the safety of your country and people, and if you send them away, the terrorists will just fan the flames. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

[QUOTE=BananaMed;50012563]I just would like to not see in this thread this ever present conundrum concerning the immigration, [/quote] I'm not convinced that there is a conundrum in the first place. Poland has signed treaties and has as such both obligations towards refugees [i]and[/i] their partners, countries like Greece or Italy. So you can either support first-entry countries or abandon the aforementioned treaties completely. [quote]because if you let [b]those people in[/b], you are possibly jeopardizing the safety of your country and people, and if you send them away, the terrorists will just fan the flames. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.[/QUOTE] Muslims? Because it would seem that homegrown terrorism is a way worse issue than anything that asylum seekers have caused. It's not like Catholicism or Nationalism haven't had terrorist organizations linked to them, and in Europe at least, their body count is probably way worse than anything ISIS has managed to do.

[QUOTE=phaedon;50012620]I'm not convinced that there is a conundrum in the first place. Poland has signed treaties and has as such both obligations towards refugees [i]and[/i] their partners, countries like Greece or Italy. So you can either support first-entry countries or abandon the aforementioned treaties completely. [/quote] Those treaties were signed during the reign of the previous party. As far as I am aware, the new government can actually choose not to follow through with it. Regardless of what the consequences of this action will be. Besides, as someone mentioned earlier, I doubt we are not going to let them come. Our politicians are currently working on a new anti-terrorism act. Maybe it's just to buy some time for it to go live. [quote] Muslims? Because it would seem that homegrown terrorism is a way worse issue than anything that asylum seekers have caused. It's not like Catholicism or Nationalism haven't had terrorist organizations linked to them, and in Europe at least, their body count is probably way worse than anything ISIS has managed to do.[/QUOTE] I am well aware of that. We had IRA bombing the English and a lot of other organizations that I don't really know a lot about. But actual major terrorist attacks carried out by Europeans seem to have died down some time ago. Now we are faced attacks that amass 3-digit numbers of casualties in a single strike. People are afraid. Even more so than ever.

[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;50012530]it could be bent to look like islamphobia. That's just common sense on my end.[/QUOTE] So no source at all apart from ridiculous hypothesis. Also that islamophobia word is a new buzzword akin to Nazi and similar, except that there's nothing wrong with disliking Islam. You should know that that word went mainstream thanks to the another Muslim Brotherhood group, the International Insitute of Islam Thought.. [quote]Jesus fuck how is "terrorists want to create terror" stupid logic. All I said was that scapegoating on this issue is exactly what they want.[/quote] No, you were basically implying that we have to pander to these people and babysit them or they would otherwise turn violent. [QUOTE=GoDong-DK;50010442] post [/QUOTE] I can't see this post as anything other than nitpicking and semantics. If you're safe in Lebanon, yet you refuse to be documented and throw away your ID while violently breaking through other European nation's borders, are you really a refugee, and do you even deserve to be called anything other than a leech? To become a refugee you first have to be approved that status by the UN.

[QUOTE=Dzonintz;50012503]Hypothetically blacks are being oppressed[/QUOTE] [quote]Hypothetically[/quote] are you for real

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50013462]are you for real[/QUOTE] Care to elaborate?

[QUOTE=Moronic;50013486]Care to elaborate?[/QUOTE] nah. SH has a tendency for rationalizing the irrational, but i refuse to believe we've reached the point where oppression of blacks is somehow incomprehensible and that you're not just doing this out of anti-liberal bias

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50013513]nah. SH has a tendency for rationalizing the irrational, but i refuse to believe we've reached the point where oppression of blacks is somehow incomprehensible and that you're not just doing this out of anti-liberal bias[/QUOTE] This seems like a cop-out.

[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;50012429]You guys know that this is exactly what the terrorists want, right? They want to induce terror. This only gives them more ammo to get people to join their cause.[/QUOTE] Terrorists want to induce terror (or anger, or really any emotion) to further their political goals. I have not heard ISIS announce that one of their goals is to clamp down on immigration from Syria/Iraq into Eastern European countries. Actually the exact opposite has been proclaimed by ISIS propaganda, threatening that open immigration policies has allowed "thousands" of jihadists through just waiting for a time to strike. Of course that's propaganda and nearly impossible to verify but this shit where "the terrorists win" every time a country reacts at all to attacks is ignorant of what groups like ISIS actually want to achieve.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;50013550]Terrorists want to induce terror (or anger, or really any emotion) to further their political goals. I have not heard ISIS announce that one of their goals is to clamp down on immigration from Syria/Iraq into Eastern European countries. Actually the exact opposite has been proclaimed by ISIS propaganda, threatening that open immigration policies has allowed "thousands" of jihadists through just waiting for a time to strike. Of course that's propaganda and nearly impossible to verify but this shit where "the terrorists win" every time a country reacts at all to attacks is ignorant of what groups like ISIS actually want to achieve.[/QUOTE] They don't win, but they certainly gain. Not everyone is gonna immediately turn into a terrorist over night because the EU won't let them in, but some will turn to ISIS because it might be the only option they feel they have left, and/or they also might hold a grudge against the EU for turning them away. I'm not saying this is what ISIS is counting on, nor am i saying we're doing all their recruitment for them, but it's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. Anyway i don't begrudge Poland for doing this (even though i think it is the wrong call in the long term), because the current alternative of letting absolutely everyone in was / is a monumentally stupid idea from Merkle.

[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;50013777]They don't win, but they certainly gain. Not everyone is gonna immediately turn into a terrorist over night because the EU won't let them in, but some will turn to ISIS because it might be the only option they feel they have left, and/or they also might hold a grudge against the EU for turning them away. I'm not saying this is what ISIS is counting on, nor am i saying we're doing all their recruitment for them, but it's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. Anyway i don't begrudge Poland for doing this (even though i think it is the wrong call in the long term), because the current alternative of letting absolutely everyone in was / is a monumentally stupid idea from Merkle.[/QUOTE] This is just an assumption though. As far as I am aware there is no hard data on how many radical fighters became radicalized because they were turned away from European borders. But you also have to consider the mindset of the people trying to travel to Europe from Syria and Iraq (and to a lesser extent Afghanistan). They are people actively moving away from conflict, either because they are refugees escaping the imminent danger of violence or deprivation, or economic migrants who want a better life for themselves and their family. I don't see many of these people turning towards radicalism when they can't cross into Europe and those that do would have a hard time waging jihad on European countries because it's now harder to enter. Basically you're damned if you do, damned if you don't summary assumes that as much damage is being prevented as damage that could be caused but the latter is based on pure speculation, that a certain but unquantifiable number of people might be radicalized by this act that definitively reduces the chances of coming under attack.

Everyone was expecting this to happen,sooner or later.

[QUOTE=WhyNott;50011421][IMG]http://i67.tinypic.com/ve7uxw.jpg[/IMG] there you go[/QUOTE] PSL are mainly pro-agriculture. They def. should have more seats, since Poland is a quite agriculturally centered country. I don't think they'd be good for running the country as a whole, but their input should have more weight. Kukiz was butt buddies with PIS for a while, but they have slowly been getting away from them. Also, very important note: In some circumstances, the polish "Right" is what most other countries would define as "Left". And vice versa. As Whynott pointed out, Korwin is fucking insane and Kukiz is a rock singer drug wreck, to put it brutally honest. Anyway, might as well post it here, [url]http://www.tvn24.pl/prezydent-andrzej-duda-z-wizyta-w-stanach-zjednoczonych,630570,s.html[/url] In short, President Barrack Obama will not have talks with President Duda as previously planned, allegedly due to his parties attacks and ingratiations on the Polish Constitutional Tribunal.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50013462]are you for real[/QUOTE] Excuse me, is this you? [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYOy1tuVv3w[/media] ^ This was your response, just like the dude in the video. Care to elaborate? [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50013513]nah. SH has a tendency for rationalizing the irrational, but i refuse to believe we've reached the point where oppression of blacks is somehow incomprehensible and that you're not just doing this out of anti-liberal bias[/QUOTE] So you can't, that's why you're so condescending. [I]Okay then.[/I] [editline]27th March 2016[/editline] Back on topic, can't say I blame them, after all that's happened in Europe. At the very least, I'd strengthen immigration laws and regulations. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("More shitposting and memeshit, last chance" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]

Brb. Moving back home to Polska!

[QUOTE=4NGRY MUFF1N;50014545]Brb. Moving back home to Polska![/QUOTE] I'll tell you what our president told polish emigrants shortly after being elected: don't come

[QUOTE=WhyNott;50014684]I'll tell you what our president told polish emigrants shortly after being elected: don't come[/QUOTE] Well at least there's one thing we can agree with him on

Seeing polish people argue about politics when you know nothing about politics is like watching your parents fight