• Meat And Masculinity: Men May Avoid Vegetarian Options Over Manly Perception Of Meat
    253 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Whitebowl;36037140]This is a much better argument. I'm not purposing a vegan diet though. We could still use land with soil unsuitable for farmland, but instead of eating the animals, we could simply use their bi products, such as milk, eggs, manure.[/QUOTE] That's a more fair reasoning. I steer away from eating/buying mammal as often as possible, and prefer to eat byproducts. Still though, its not possible nor is there a point in not eating meat. I think partial vegetarianism, or preferential vegetarianism is a good virtue but 100% vegetarianism is irrational. I also meant the byproducts such as collogen, leather, etc along with the edible byproducts.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;36037142]But it's not cheaper. Vegetables are only cheap because meat is a preferred diet, if vegetables took up 100% of the human diet, far more farmland would need to be used, and transportation costs for the food would be through the roof.[/QUOTE] why would transportation costs increase? Surely it's easier to ship vegetables than it is to ship meat or livestock [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=hypno-toad;36037154]That's a more fair reasoning. I steer away from eating/buying mammal as often as possible, and prefer to eat byproducts. Still though, its not possible nor is there a point in not eating meat. I think partial vegetarianism, or preferential vegetarianism is a good virtue but 100% vegetarianism is irrational. I also meant the byproducts such as collogen, leather, etc along with the edible byproducts.[/QUOTE] If a cow has died of natural causes, is it still possible to use the hide for leather? [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Atlascore;36037155]Are you really comparing hunger to peace and quiet? I mean fuck, seriously? They're two completely different things, I would never kill a dog because it was barking.[/QUOTE] This is my point exactly. I'm saying you only eat meat because you enjoy the taste, much like the person in our scenario killed the dog because they enjoy their peace and quiet. Vegetarian food can be just as delicious as anything with meat in it.
[QUOTE=Whitebowl;36037164]why would transportation costs increase? Surely it's easier to ship vegetables than it is to ship meat or livestock[/QUOTE] Surface area. You need larger spaces of land to produce a much smaller nutritional value when growing vegetables. The land that is consumed needs to be traveled over again when the products are being brought to market. [quote]If a cow has died of natural causes, is it still possible to use the hide for leather?[/quote] It is, but cows die of natural causes at a much slower rate than being killed, and generally when they die of a natural causes the meat from them is not necessarily safe to eat, and ergo it goes to waste.
[QUOTE=Ban Camp;36024052]I'm willing to shove every kind of meat into my mouth![/QUOTE] hot
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;36037219]Surface area. You need larger spaces of land to produce a much smaller nutritional value when growing vegetables. The land that is consumed needs to be traveled over again when the products are being brought to market. It is, but cows die of natural causes at a much slower rate than being killed, and generally when they die of a natural causes the meat from them is not necessarily safe to eat, and ergo it goes to waste.[/QUOTE] I find that very hard to believe. animals need a lot of room to move around and live in, while vegetables can be grown very close together. About the leather, while using only the hide from cows who've died of natural causes would drastically increase the price, we have many alternatives that work just as well. [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Atlascore;36037225]No, they're two completely different things, satisfying your hunger isn't even comparable to killing something because it's making noise.[/QUOTE] but youre satisfying your hunger by killing a living thing. why not eat something else?
[QUOTE=Atlascore;36037265]Because meat tastes good, nothing vegetarian can beat real bacon or a real steak.[/QUOTE] I can't see ether one of us budging on this. Agree to disagree?
[QUOTE=Whitebowl;36037164]This is my point exactly. I'm saying you only eat meat because you enjoy the taste, much like the person in our scenario killed the dog because they enjoy their peace and quiet.[/QUOTE] Killing animals is rarely for simple sadistic pleasures unless you're the type of person that shows psychopathic tendencies and a likelihood to grow up to become a serial killer. We kill animals to feed ourselves, as meat have been a natural part of our diet for as long as our species have existed. The fact that we heavily enjoy the taste, is just a bonus. We want the animals we eat to live under good conditions before they are slaughtered not because we think of them as our equals, but because we feel that it is only respectful to show at least some mercy. [QUOTE=Whitebowl;36037164]Vegetarian food can be just as delicious as anything with meat in it.[/QUOTE] Taste varies heavily from person to person. I enjoy the taste of meat a lot, there is however very little vegetables I don't force myself to eat just because they're healthy. Aside from this, becoming a vegetarian takes a lot of more effort and knowledge on how to make your food in a way that isn't unhealthy for you. It is a lot more complicated to remove the meat part of your diet and to find ways to replace it in every meal you make, and that is not an effort I am willing to make for something I don't even enjoy the taste a lot from. The health and taste aspects really are the two best reasons one can become a vegetarian, and those who become vegetarians for these reasons alone have my respect. However becoming a vegetarian for moral reasons is too much of a subjective standpoint, it's just an opinion, and it's very hard to convince people to change by cramming your opinions down their throat.
[QUOTE=Simski;36037319] The health and taste aspects really are the two best reasons one can become a vegetarian, and those who become vegetarians for these reasons alone have my respect. However becoming a vegetarian for moral reasons is too much of a subjective standpoint, it's just an opinion, and it's very hard to convince people to change by cramming your opinions down their throat.[/QUOTE] They're nothing wrong with being a vegetarian for moral reasons, I personally don't feel right about killing animals when I don't have too. I'm not trying to cram my opinion down your throat though, and I'm sorry if I've come across that way, I'm simply participating in a debate. It's not like I yell at people who I see eating meat, I just share my insight when the topic is brought up, like here. [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] Really though I'd say religion is the number one reason for people being vegetarian
[QUOTE=bloboo;36037263]I like broccoli because it gives me gas which drives people away from me so I can fap without worries.[/QUOTE] Broccoli is not bad, but gives you gas like a motherfucker, cauliflower, cabbage, onions, ect, are disgusting.
[QUOTE=Whitebowl;36037351]They're nothing wrong with being a vegetarian for moral reasons, I personally don't feel right about killing animals when I don't have too.[/QUOTE] It's just something that if you're not a vegetarian, you probably disagree with. It's extremely rare that any vegetarian can convince a normal omnivore that meat is morally wrong, and vice versa. Therefor it's not a very good topic for arguments, as it usually leads to no results. It usually just ends up being a shitflinging contest from both sides. [QUOTE=Whitebowl;36037351]Really though I'd say religion is the number one reason for people being vegetarian[/QUOTE] True perhaps, but religious people don't tend to be the kind that likes to have debates about why they believe in what they do. Personally I have a rather clinically cold and logical view on everything foremost, and let my emotions only play the part of things that are to me entirely subjective.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;36036906]Why eat meat in this day and age? Because it's good for us! It's an integral part of our diet. It would take hundreds, if not thousands of years to adapt to an all-vegan diet, and vegetarianism is such a new concept (perhaps 1200 years old) that we honestly don't know if that would be good for us. Hell, some scientists believe it might reduce our overall intelligence. Also, I can honestly say that we do not kill animals just for satisfaction. We kill them because eating meat is healthy.[/QUOTE] Hardly a new concept, Hinduism dates back to 5500BC and they hold vegetarianism as an ideal. Meat is no more "healthy" than any other food substance. It has no substantial benefits over any other food stuffs except maybe the quantity and variety of proteins some meats contain (although you can get the same quantities in beans, eggs etc). For instance, I am alive and well and meat has never contributed to my development. [QUOTE=hypno-toad;36037219]Surface area. You need larger spaces of land to produce a much smaller nutritional value when growing vegetables. The land that is consumed needs to be traveled over again when the products are being brought to market.[/QUOTE] This is just wholly incorrect. I don't know where you've got this from but I'd like to find out because I've always known it to be the other way around.
[QUOTE=Whitebowl;36036708] You don't need to eat meat to survive and not eating red meat actually increases your life span.[/QUOTE] Source and it better be a fucking peer reviewed research journal, not some shitty pro-vegan propaganda website. (not to be arrogant, but I know how this is going to go already, you're going to scour google for some journal that remotely supports this argument, but on further examination it actually doesn't support that argument in the least, least not because attributing increased life span to the removal of red meat from your diet would be next to impossible to attribute properly, since there are so many variables)
[quote] "To the strong, traditional, macho, bicep-flexing, All-American male, red meat is a strong, traditional, macho, bicep-flexing, All-American food,"[/quote] [img]http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/7/2008/11/CryingEagle-Flag640.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=newbs;36023590]I'm a vegetarian but I'm fitter than half of you motherfuckers out there. Besides, [B]all that muscle turns to fat when you get old and lazy.[/B][/QUOTE] That is not how it works.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;36036833]Believe it or not, meat-eating has been linked to intelligence, and we're all but certain that our brains grew as large as they are because we started eating meat.[/QUOTE] i want a source on this
[QUOTE=demoguy08;36038320]That is not how it works.[/QUOTE] Doctor, doctor please help, my muscles turned into fat!
[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;36038165]Source and it better be a fucking peer reviewed research journal, not some shitty pro-vegan propaganda website. (not to be arrogant, but I know how this is going to go already, you're going to scour google for some journal that remotely supports this argument, but on further examination it actually doesn't support that argument in the least, least not because attributing increased life span to the removal of red meat from your diet would be next to impossible to attribute properly, since there are so many variables)[/QUOTE] No problem. [url]http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2012-releases/red-meat-cardiovascular-cancer-mortality.html?__utma=1.2107364056.1337608155.1337608155.1337608155.1&__utmb=1.1.10.1337608155&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1337608155.1.1.utmcsr=hsph.harvard.edu|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/&__utmv=-&__utmk=219907609[/url] [url]http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2011-releases/red-meat-type-2-diabetes.html?__utma=1.2107364056.1337608155.1337608155.1337608155.1&__utmb=1.2.10.1337608155&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1337608155.1.1.utmcsr=hsph.harvard.edu|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/&__utmv=-&__utmk=189941291[/url] [url]http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/coverage-in-the-media/healthy-eating-red-meat-stroke-hu/?__utma=1.2107364056.1337608155.1337608155.1337608155.1&__utmb=1.3.10.1337608155&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1337608155.1.1.utmcsr=hsph.harvard.edu|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/&__utmv=-&__utmk=119572232[/url] [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] Although this study is based off of the consumption of 2 or more servings of red meat a day, I feel as though this is sufficient.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36038615]i want a source on this[/QUOTE] Certainly. Here's one from [url=http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html]UC Berkeley[/url]. I'll see if I can find other verifiable sources.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36038615]i want a source on this[/QUOTE] He misquoted it. There's a popular theory that a major leap in evolution and ultimately human intelligence, was from when we started cooking meat (fire), which allows for greater utilization of the proteins and fats (and energy/calories ultimately). As an aside, this is why I can't take people who eat raw meat seriously. [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Whitebowl;36039664]No problem. [url]http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2012-releases/red-meat-cardiovascular-cancer-mortality.html?__utma=1.2107364056.1337608155.1337608155.1337608155.1&__utmb=1.1.10.1337608155&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1337608155.1.1.utmcsr=hsph.harvard.edu|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/&__utmv=-&__utmk=219907609[/url] [url]http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2011-releases/red-meat-type-2-diabetes.html?__utma=1.2107364056.1337608155.1337608155.1337608155.1&__utmb=1.2.10.1337608155&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1337608155.1.1.utmcsr=hsph.harvard.edu|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/&__utmv=-&__utmk=189941291[/url] [url]http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/coverage-in-the-media/healthy-eating-red-meat-stroke-hu/?__utma=1.2107364056.1337608155.1337608155.1337608155.1&__utmb=1.3.10.1337608155&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1337608155.1.1.utmcsr=hsph.harvard.edu|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/&__utmv=-&__utmk=119572232[/url] [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] Although this study is based off of the consumption of 2 or more servings of red meat a day, I feel as though this is sufficient.[/QUOTE] I asked you to provide a peer reviewed research journal. Not articles. Isolated studies conducted by universities really don't mean shit on their own (and sources like this one have been outed as biased before). As I said before, when you try to link anything to a decreased or increased lifespan, your methodology is going to be inherently flawed due to the extreme number of variables that cannot be adjusted for.
[QUOTE=Daemon;36036504]Nobody, 1.0001% of the movement that might be arguing about meat eating isn't arguing about insects or non-sentient life. I mean you don't see them worried about bacteria cultures or something where you'd see people sitting there having protest over yogurt or something. There is nothing meritorious about human beings than over other animals. You judge the credablity and integratiy of an organisms sentience based on whether or not you can paper train it. That's your definition of a meritouris creature and so if theres some human retard shitting his pants right now we should have him for dinner because he doesn't matter anymore . We can put him in a cage where he can't even turn around right etc.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=dass;36035385]Besides, you're basically killing a person. Nobody is gonna give a shit if you killed a cow and then ate it. Its a cow. Cows eat, shit, breed and sleep. They don't even have rights like us, no intelligence like us, nothing that would make them an individual. You don't eat a cat or a dog (if you aren't a sick bastard) because those are pets and we have domesticated them. You don't eat a person (even if that person is a retard, saying this in case some smart ass counters with it) because they are living beings like us.[/QUOTE] It's as if I am a wizard and knew you were gonna come with that argument. By your logic, a person has the same value as a cow. If it wasn't for meat, we wouldn't be where we are. It played a major part in our survival and evolution. [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Whitebowl;36036874]But why eat meat now in this day and age? It's ridiculously easy to eat healthy without animals in your diet. We no longer kill other animals for survival, but for satisfaction, and that's what bugs me.[/QUOTE] You make it sound like we kill because killing is fun. And WHY would I not eat animal meat? [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Whitebowl;36036937]But everything you get from meat, you can get from other foods as well. If you can link me to a source backing up your claims I would be interested in reading it. [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] So your satisfaction is more important than the life of an animal?[/QUOTE] Oh wow I would totally go for a steak right now, but that pig who eats, shits and sleeps is soo much more important than I am! [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Whitebowl;36037012]Our fishing problem could be solved not eating fish. About cutting down trees for towns, I'm okay with it as long as the trees are replanted. Personally I find it disgusting that your comfort and satisfaction take trump over the life of a living creature. It's not okay for someone to murder you because you're inconveniencing them, this is no different.[/QUOTE] If we lived by that logic, we wouldn't live at all. We'd be long dead. Think about that. If we lived by that logic of yours and many more, you wouldn't be here talking about it. [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Whitebowl;36037059]While I agree human life is more important than the life of other animals, that doesn't make it okay for us to kill them because it pleases us. Thats the point I'm trying to make. Let me try a better example, it's wrong to kill your neighbors dog because it barks, but it's totally fine to kill a cow because we enjoy how it tastes. It doesn't make sense to me.[/QUOTE] You don't kill your neighbours dog because that would probably even be a fellony, just like you wouldn't kill your neighbours cow. You would kill your dog if you wanted, but thats just sick and stupid, and you probably would get animal rights people on your ass. Would that happen if you killed a cow? No, because you can't even compare them to a dog. My opinion? You should only be a vegetarian if you have real medical problems that prevent you from eating meat. Any other reason is [b]just retarded[/b]. Makes me think that if I go into a farm and take a bunch of cows hostage and send a video to the news saying I'll kill and eat them, they'll jump on right away to the police and rant on how they aren't saving those poor creatures.
[QUOTE=Whitebowl;36036708]I'd like a source on this. Farmland produces much more food per square foot than cattle farms do.[/quote] I agree absolutely, but as I said, cattle and other livestock are often grown where farms are not viable. Good farmland isn't the most common of things. And again, they also consume the calories from farms that would otherwise be lost to waste due to failing the quality checks. [quote] You don't need to eat meat to survive and not eating red meat actually increases your life span.[/QUOTE] Not true. Not eating excessive amounts of food increases your life span. Red meat has little to do with it. Unless you can point out why red meat would scientifically have an impact, despite being extremely easy to digest and full of essential nutrients, I would suggest not listening to bullshit pseudo science that can barely manage to show correlation, much less even begin to prove causation. [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Whitebowl;36039664]No problem. [url]http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2012-releases/red-meat-cardiovascular-cancer-mortality.html?__utma=1.2107364056.1337608155.1337608155.1337608155.1&__utmb=1.1.10.1337608155&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1337608155.1.1.utmcsr=hsph.harvard.edu|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/&__utmv=-&__utmk=219907609[/url] [url]http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2011-releases/red-meat-type-2-diabetes.html?__utma=1.2107364056.1337608155.1337608155.1337608155.1&__utmb=1.2.10.1337608155&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1337608155.1.1.utmcsr=hsph.harvard.edu|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/&__utmv=-&__utmk=189941291[/url] [url]http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/coverage-in-the-media/healthy-eating-red-meat-stroke-hu/?__utma=1.2107364056.1337608155.1337608155.1337608155.1&__utmb=1.3.10.1337608155&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1337608155.1.1.utmcsr=hsph.harvard.edu|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/&__utmv=-&__utmk=119572232[/url] [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] Although this study is based off of the consumption of 2 or more servings of red meat a day, I feel as though this is sufficient.[/QUOTE] Can't prove causation. CAN'T. PROVE. CAUSATION. Not only that, but they don't even have any science suggesting why that theory would even be correct. Nothing about the chemistry inside your body suggests that it would hurt you at all. I am so tired of crappy science.
[QUOTE=dass;36040456] By your logic, a person has the same value as a cow.[/QUOTE] How are you defining the value between a cow and a human? By there progress in contemplating the universe? Sorry we are not on the same level of thinking obviously. [QUOTE=dass;36040456]If it wasn't for meat, we wouldn't be where we are. It played a major part in our survival and evolution.[/QUOTE] We wouldn't be where we are if it weren't for alot of things. 'It played'- hence already done/ wouldn't necessarily apply to the circumstance today. Are you gonna make this kind of argument that somehow if we stop eating meat we're gonna be gorillas again. We're gonna go back into the woods and eat bananas all day. This is not the argument.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;36039890]Certainly. Here's one from [url=http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html]UC Berkeley[/url]. I'll see if I can find other verifiable sources.[/QUOTE] The meats certainly allowed for the development of larger brains but it wasn't necessarily a direct cause. [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] Plenty of animals hunt and kill other animals and while they tend to have larger brains, they don't have the massively more complex brains than humans do.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36042320]The meats certainly allowed for the development of larger brains but it wasn't necessarily a direct cause. [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] Plenty of animals hunt and kill other animals and while they tend to have larger brains, they don't have the massively more complex brains than humans do.[/QUOTE] Again, it's theorized that the significant difference is: fire. As I said before, cooked meats allow us to utilize more of the energy and nutrients.
[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;36042980]Again, it's theorized that the significant difference is: fire. As I said before, cooked meats allow us to utilize more of the energy and nutrients.[/QUOTE] [img]http://filesmelt.com/dl/meatmachine.png[/img] So something like this? Black lines denote proximate causation, red lines for ultimate causation.
Just going to point out since we are continuing the eating humans vs eating animals- We have evolutionarily evolved to protect members of our own species, because this may gain us a benefit in them helping us later. We didn't evolve the idea to protect other animals from harm in this more deaply rooted sense, because a cow isn't going to help me out later. Apologies to anyone here who doesn't believe in evolution, but likely your god gives you a reason not to eat people so yeah. Edit: Kinda off topic but, You know since we are talking about evolution and how we are different I'm just gonna point out a species few people know about. Don't just quick because she starts out talking about monkey sexual behaviour. [video=youtube;a8nDJaH-fVE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8nDJaH-fVE[/video] Amazing stuff.
Men love to suckle on some succulent flesh.
I really wish I could go vegetarian, but I've tried and my body didn't react well to it. I'm thinking about weening myself off gradually. [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] And my mom loves cooking meat and I love her cooking. ):
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