• UK prisoners get the right to vote
    201 replies, posted
[QUOTE=spaghettiarms;25825715]That was just an example. It could be anyone drug, dealers, tax absconders, money launderers. The list goes on with crimes worth going to prison for. It doesn't change the fact that the majority of people dont want criminals to have a better and potentially easier life then the law abiding working man. I dont want 70,000 prisoners voting for the government that is offering a better life to prisoners, especially not now when this country is as fucked as it is. You commit a crime, you go to prison, you have a miserable time. Were not saying we want them to be lashed or tortured! They just shouldn't have privileges, because's they knew (thought) whats what they were sacrificing when they committed the crime, and they need to pay for it.[/QUOTE] Along the lines of what Chirno just said, what if you just happen to be jailed at election time for 30-120 days, which are fairly short sentences. It's unlikely these individuals care about long-term prison life to the point of voting to change it, but they lose the ability to represent themselves until the next election.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;25825769]Along the lines of what Chirno just said, what if you just happen to be jailed at election time for 30-120 days, which are fairly short sentences. It's unlikely these individuals care about long-term prison life to the point of voting to change it, but they lose the ability to represent themselves until the next election.[/QUOTE] it doesn't matter how long you're jailed for. it comes down to the fact that you commited the crime, and you serve the time. it's their own fault they don't get to vote.
[QUOTE=The_Putty;25825753]the point of jail is punishment to stop you from commiting crimes. some people go to jail because they don't have anywhere better to go. not only do they get to vote, they get all sorts of benefits. the only thing giving them voting rights will cause is more crime, anger in the general populace, further reforms to improving prisoner life, and the chance of causing some radical party to get elected all because you gave prisoners voting rights[/QUOTE] Wow, are you really that stupid? You honestly think that prisoners being able to vote would cause more crime? You act like every jail is like the 4 or 5 luxury jail houses the news reports on, but it's not. Jails are strict and depressing most the time. It's not like prisoners are allowed to do as they wish as if the jail house is some sort of tropical resort.
[QUOTE=The_Putty;25825753]the point of jail is punishment to stop you from commiting crimes. some people go to jail because they don't have anywhere better to go. not only do they get to vote, they get all sorts of benefits. the only thing giving them voting rights will cause is more crime, anger in the general populace, further reforms to improving prisoner life, and the chance of causing some radical party to get elected all because you gave prisoners voting rights[/QUOTE] Prisoners have always had voting rights here in Sweden, and there's no "Inmate's Party" in parliament. Your theory falls appart fairly quickly when you look at real-world cases.
[QUOTE=The_Putty;25825781]it doesn't matter how long you're jailed for. it comes down to the fact that you commited the crime, and you serve the time. it's their own fault they don't get to vote.[/QUOTE] But in this case, the 'time' is out of proportion to the sentence, and differs heavily between people based on when their jail sentence is actually served.
[QUOTE=Chirno;25825783]Wow, are you really that stupid? You honestly think that prisoners being able to vote would cause more crime? You act like every jail is like the 4 or 5 luxury jail houses the news reports on, but it's not. Jails are strict and depressing most the time. It's not like prisoners are allowed to do as they wish as if the jail house is some sort of tropical resort.[/QUOTE] i mean immigrants or something, the people who are worse off outside of jail because they've got nothing
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;25825769]Along the lines of what Chirno just said, what if you just happen to be jailed at election time for 30-120 days, which are fairly short sentences. It's unlikely these individuals care about long-term prison life to the point of voting to change it, but they lose the ability to represent themselves until the next election.[/QUOTE] The Majority of people in prison are repeat offenders, and will be back in no time. If your in england, watch with seriers on 4 called Coppers at the moment. Its pretty much a hour of prison guards saying prisons are way to nice.
look, it comes down to the fact that it's a [B]prisoner[/B], not something else. why should a prisoner get anymore rights then they already have in jail other then IT'S NOT RIGHT IT SHOULD BE MORE HUMAN if anything prisons should be even more strict.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;25825769]Along the lines of what Chirno just said, what if you just happen to be jailed at election time for 30-120 days, which are fairly short sentences. It's unlikely these individuals care about long-term prison life to the point of voting to change it, but they lose the ability to represent themselves until the next election.[/QUOTE] I think depending on the severity of the crime then there would be allowances, crimes against people would illicit the strongest response, solitary confinement and few if any rights. Where as prison for doing coke or heroin and the like then you just serve the standard sentence with rights. You're assuming it has to be black and white, things are rarely that way.
[QUOTE=The_Putty;25825791]i mean immigrants or something, the people who are worse off outside of jail because they've got nothing[/QUOTE] Yeah, no. Immigrants that are not legal [*] citizens don't get to vote, because one they're not registered voters and two, [i]they're not going to take the risk of getting deported just to vote[/i]. Thinking that people are going to get arrested and/or possible deportation just to vote is fucking stupid and you should feel [b]bad[/b].
[QUOTE=bravehat;25825808]I think depending on the severity of the crime then there would be allowances, crimes against people would illicit the strongest response, solitary confinement and few if any rights. Where as prison for doing coke or heroin and the like then you just serve the standard sentence with rights. You're assuming it has to be black and white, things are rarely that way.[/QUOTE] The UK's law, so far as I could find, makes no distinction. If you're in jail, you lose all voting rights. I wouldn't have a problem, and I don't think the EU would either, if there were gradations of rights based on the sentence/previous offenses.
[QUOTE=Chirno;25825812]Yeah, no. Immigrants that are not legal [*] citizens don't get to vote, because one they're not registered voters and two, [i]they're not going to take the risk of getting deported just to vote[i]. Thinking that people are going to get arrested and/or possible deportation just to vote is fucking stupid and you should feel [b]bad[/b].[/QUOTE] it was just an example jeez
[QUOTE=The_Putty;25825791]i mean immigrants or something, the people who are worse off outside of jail because they've got nothing[/QUOTE] There are so many things wrong with this line of reasoning I just sat there staring at it for a while.
[QUOTE=bravehat;25825493]Agreed, I thought the whole point of prison was that you committed a crime and as such relinquished your rights for the duration of the stay there. [b]Pretty soon prisons are just going to be long stay hotel rooms.[/b] :colbert:[/QUOTE] That has already happened here in Sweden :v: Anyway, I don't see the negative part of this. For a truly democratic society, everyone should be allowed to vote, even those who have committed crime. Besides, it's not like everyone in prisons are murderers/rapists e.t.c. Some only committed crimes that did not hurt or affect anyone, like smoking cannabis or something similar. Do these people really deserve to have their basic democratic rights taken away from them?
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;25825829]There are so many things wrong with this line of reasoning I just sat there staring at it for a while.[/QUOTE] again, example. i meant if you get the right to vote in a jail that's just one more reason why people who seek to get into jail because their life outside is worse try harder to get in, resulting in more crime. not on a country wide scale, but you still get more crime out of it
Just hope they retain the ban for murderers and the like etc.
[QUOTE=The_Putty;25825820]it was just an example jeez[/QUOTE] A fucking terrible example. In fact, nothing you've said has made any good points at all.
[QUOTE=Chirno;25825859]A fucking terrible example. In fact, nothing you've said has made any good points at all.[/QUOTE] other then the fact that you know, prisoners shouldn't have more rights then they already possess or is that too extreme for you
[QUOTE=The_Putty;25825853]again, example. i meant if you get the right to vote in a jail that's just one more reason why people who seek to get into jail because their life outside is worse try harder to get in, resulting in more crime. not on a country wide scale, but you still get more crime out of it[/QUOTE] More crime out of voting, yeah sure. If their lives were REALLY that bad, they would already be trying to get into jail, voting would have anything to help with that, because if they were in jail long enough for it to make their life better, voting wouldn't mean shit. Way to go, nice try, though. It's not like some homeless mother fucker is going to be like "Oh people in jail can vote, I'm going to steal this car and get arrested so I can have a home and vote" and then he gets out in X months/years and he's homeless again, but guess what? He got to vote, now his life doesn't suck! Again, if it really sucked that bad, they would already be getting arrested.
[QUOTE=The_Putty;25825864]other then the fact that you know, prisoners shouldn't have more rights then they already possess or is that too extreme for you[/QUOTE] You aren't going to convince anyone by just saying "it should be this way", so there's no use in repeating it without actually arguing for what you think is right.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;25825892]You aren't going to convince anyone by just saying "it should be this way", so there's no use in repeating it without actually arguing for what you think is right.[/QUOTE] i've already argued that point. the people know what prison is and what rights are taken away, and yet they still do the crime. it's punishment not being able to vote, as well as a variety of other rights taken away. giving them voting rights only leads to them getting more rights, which none of them deserve.
[QUOTE=The_Putty;25825910]i've already argued that point. the people know what prison is and what rights are taken away, and yet they still do the crime. it's punishment not being able to vote, as well as a variety of other rights taken away. giving them voting rights only leads to them getting more rights, which none of them deserve.[/QUOTE] But I already pointed out that innocent people go to jail (therefore some still deserve the right), and reasons why short-term jail sentences shouldn't have this punishment (therefore some still deserve the right).
Hey, people dont give a fuck about democracy anymore and stop voting. Lets get more people to vote!
With forensics few innocents are sent to prison. Still certain crimes don't deserve the rights removal, murder rape and other crimes against people, and extreme crimes against property like bank robbery and shit deserve it.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;25825922]But I already pointed out that innocent people go to jail (therefore some still deserve the right), and reasons why short-term jail sentences shouldn't have this punishment (therefore some still deserve the right).[/QUOTE] you can't help innocent people going to jail. that's the fault of the courts, and either way, you can't tell if they're innocent or not. the sentence length doesn't matter, because they're all prisoners. just because you have a sentence time of a few months doesn't mean you're automatically excluded. you're a prisoner for those months, and for those months, you lose the right to vote.
[QUOTE=The_Putty;25825943]you can't help innocent people going to jail. that's the fault of the courts, and either way, you can't tell if they're innocent or not. the sentence length doesn't matter, because they're all prisoners. just because you have a sentence time of a few months doesn't mean you're automatically excluded. you're a prisoner for those months, and for those months, you lose the right to vote.[/QUOTE] But voting doesn't happen all the time. You're suggesting that we should punish prisoners randomly, because the removal of voting rights doesn't actually matter unless your sentence coincides with an election of some sort.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;25825954]But voting doesn't happen all the time. You're suggesting that we should punish prisoners randomly, because the removal of voting rights doesn't actually matter unless your sentence coincides with an election of some sort.[/QUOTE] i'm suggesting all prisoners lose the right to vote for their entire duration of their sentence. whether you're innocent, guilty, black, white, rich, poor, in for life or in for 2 days, you lose the right to vote. there is no compromise, no exclusion, it's all fair. everybody loses the right to vote, because you did the crime, and now you're having the punishment for it. whether there's an election on or not, you lose the right to vote. simple as that.
[QUOTE=The_Putty;25825964]i'm suggesting all prisoners lose the right to vote for their entire duration of their sentence. whether you're innocent, guilty, black, white, rich, poor, in for life or in for 2 days, you lose the right to vote. there is no compromise, no exclusion, it's all fair. everybody loses the right to vote, because you did the crime, and now you're having the punishment for it.[/QUOTE] But if you can't use a right, then you haven't actually lost it, so the punishment differs based on when the jail sentence is carried out, resulting in more severe punishment for those whose jail sentences coincide with an election.
[QUOTE=bravehat;25825940]With forensics few innocents are sent to prison. Still certain crimes don't deserve the rights removal, murder rape and other crimes against people, and extreme crimes against property like bank robbery and shit deserve it.[/QUOTE] I'm starting to lean more towards having certain exceptions to allow certain prisoners to vote. Like you said, criminals that were convicted for heinous crimes should be given no chance but those who committed minor offenses should be able to submit a document to prison or government officials that explicitly asks for the right to vote.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;25825974]But if you can't use a right, then you haven't actually lost it, so the punishment differs based on when the jail sentence is carried out, resulting in more severe punishment for those whose jail sentences coincide with an election.[/QUOTE] it's not more severe at all, it's simply what you lose when you go to prison. you can't vote, whether there's an election on or not. [editline]3rd November 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Shoe Phone;25825979]I'm starting to lean more towards having certain exceptions to allow certain prisoners to vote. Like you said, criminals that were convicted for heinous crimes should be given no chance but those who committed minor offenses should be able to submit a document to prison or government officials that explicitly asks for the right to vote.[/QUOTE] something like this could also work, as long as it makes this debate not stretch over 10 pages
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