[QUOTE=Rossy167;51108210]Look, I know that she wasn't cooperating, but I really have to ask, because we don't have headlines like this in the UK: why are your police so violent in America? Like why is their solution to belligerent teenage girl spraying her with pepper spray? Because here, as far as I know, violence is literally the last of the last resorts.[/QUOTE]
From what I've gathered here, it's because the gun culture works up cops so much that they think that everyone is going to hurt them so they have to use the absolute maximum force in handling a situation.
[QUOTE=Rossy167;51108210]Look, I know that she wasn't cooperating, but I really have to ask, because we don't have headlines like this in the UK: why are your police so violent in America? Like why is their solution to belligerent teenage girl spraying her with pepper spray? Because here, as far as I know, violence is literally the last of the last resorts.[/QUOTE]
Did you watch the video?
They let her scream and throw a fit for ten minutes before they resorted to spray. She was refusing lawful orders so they took an approach that would result in compliance at the cost of temporary discomfort.
I will say that they sucked at deescalation, but being good at de-escalating people is a rare trait that is hard to train. It requires intuition and a frequent disregard for your own safety. I think it could have been done, but it isn't something that every cop is going to naturally be skilled at.
Their actions remain justified.
[QUOTE=Rossy167;51108210]Look, I know that she wasn't cooperating, but I really have to ask, because we don't have headlines like this in the UK: why are your police so violent in America? Like why is their solution to belligerent teenage girl spraying her with pepper spray? Because here, as far as I know, violence is literally the last of the last resorts.[/QUOTE]
What's even the alternative in this situation?
You waste everyone's time struggling for an hour hoping she'll eventually get tired? You tackle her to the ground and risk breaking something? You just let her leave since she won't get arrested without fighting?
It's always weird to see people bring up police brutality in cases involving pepper spray because it's the method that's the most likely to stop someone who's clearly not going to cooperate with no long term injuries
She obviously made this situation a hell of a lot worse than it needed to be by struggling so much, but I can't help but wonder what she's got going on at home. Her main concern seemed to be her parents finding out, and she kept begging the officers to call a cop named "Zach," who she trusted. Makes me wonder if maybe there's a history of abuse or issues at home, and that maybe Officer Zach had been a trusted resource for her? Somebody who understood what her home life was like and could help her deal with this?
She is a 15 year old girl who was just in a car accident and feels like she's being blamed for it.
How else do you expect a teenager to react to a situation like this?
Yeah maybe it was mostly her fault for hitting the dude's car, but I didn't see the accident take place. I did see the guy's hands fumbly and shaky hands drop the contents of his wallet though. Maybe that contributed to the accident. And before you way "he was just nervous in front of the cop" what do you think that translates to for the young girl?
The most shocking thing in this video that I noticed was how quick the transition from talking to force was. He didn't waste 2 minutes trying to calm her down, he just went for it. That's impatience. No wonder she reacted the way she did. The only sensible person is the guy trying to help the girl calm down. He's the ONLY ONE in the video who understands what needs to be done to get the girl to cooperate, but they just tell him to back off.
If you're picking sides of the cop or the girl here, you're falling for a trap. Think of it in terms of responsibility. The old man in the accident has to take responsibility that he may have contributed to the accident (maybe not, but at the very least he was unaware of the cyclist). He does nothing of the sort, in fact he plants suspicion by saying "we had to force her to stay". The cop has the biggest responsibility to resolve the situation. Peacefully, if possible. However, he can use whatever tactics necessary, that is his authority. He chose to use force almost immediately, disengaging any other method to do so.
What's the girl's responsibility?
One thing is obvious to us: she's a child.
How much do you personally rely on children to do any sort of duty?
That being said, she did have the responsibility to talk. It's just that the cops wouldn't let her because they were too impatient to get on with it. They had all the tools they needed to make her cooperative. The one guy talking sense was the key. They instead chose to isolate her and make it seem like it was all her fault [u]just like most people in this thread are doing[/u]
tl;dr the cops failed at doing their job, and blamed a little girl for it
[QUOTE=nickohlus;51108324]She is a 15 year old girl who was just in a car accident and feels like she's being blamed for it.
How else do you expect a teenager to react to a situation like this?
Yeah maybe it was mostly her fault for hitting the dude's car, but I didn't see the accident take place. I did see the guy's hands fumbly and shaky hands drop the contents of his wallet though. Maybe that contributed to the accident. And before you way "he was just nervous in front of the cop" what do you think that translates to for the young girl?
The most shocking thing in this video that I noticed was how quick the transition from talking to force was. He didn't waste 2 minutes trying to calm her down, he just went for it. That's impatience. No wonder she reacted the way she did. The only sensible person is the guy trying to help the girl calm down. He's the ONLY ONE in the video who understands what needs to be done to get the girl to cooperate, but they just tell him to back off.
If you're picking sides of the cop or the girl here, you're falling for a trap. Think of it in terms of responsibility. The old man in the accident has to take responsibility that he may have contributed to the accident (maybe not, but at the very least he was unaware of the cyclist). He does nothing of the sort, in fact he plants suspicion by saying "we had to force her to stay". The cop has the biggest responsibility to resolve the situation. Peacefully, if possible. However, he can use whatever tactics necessary, that is his authority. He chose to use force almost immediately, disengaging any other method to do so.
What's the girl's responsibility?
One thing is obvious to us: she's a child.
How much do you personally rely on children to do any sort of duty?
That being said, she did have the responsibility to talk. It's just that the cops wouldn't let her because they were too impatient to get on with it. They had all the tools they needed to make her cooperative. The one guy talking sense was the key. They instead chose to isolate her and make it seem like it was all her fault [u]just like most people in this thread are doing[/u]
tl;dr the cops failed at doing their job, and blamed a little girl for it[/QUOTE]
You really must not know any fifteen year olds or be really disconnected from reality. A friend of mine that knows how to drive told me he'd teach when I was around sixteen. I fucked up, crashed into another car, cops were called and the guy whom I crashed into was furious. Cops came by but since I knew that you're not supposed to act like an idiot and comply and make things easier for everyone the situation got resolved in a few hours, easy as that. Fifteen year olds aren't dumbasses, people really need to stop using age as an excuse for stupid shit and like I said, fifteen is old enough. And yes, I realise that everyone is different but it's common sense to be complying when authorities are involved. Fifteen is far from being a fucking "child".
I'm honestly amazed she didn't get sprayed sooner, when she was kicking the officer and knocked his camera off was when I thought it'd be but nope, it was where she was refusing to put her damn feet in the car, they gave her way too much restraint to that stage, pretty much anyone else would have likely sprayed her long before.
I wouldn't be able to last that long with a person like this for sure.
[QUOTE=nickohlus;51108324]She is a 15 year old girl who was just in a car accident and feels like she's being blamed for it.
How else do you expect a teenager to react to a situation like this?
Yeah maybe it was mostly her fault for hitting the dude's car, but I didn't see the accident take place. I did see the guy's hands fumbly and shaky hands drop the contents of his wallet though. Maybe that contributed to the accident. And before you way "he was just nervous in front of the cop" what do you think that translates to for the young girl?
The most shocking thing in this video that I noticed was how quick the transition from talking to force was. He didn't waste 2 minutes trying to calm her down, he just went for it. That's impatience. No wonder she reacted the way she did. The only sensible person is the guy trying to help the girl calm down. He's the ONLY ONE in the video who understands what needs to be done to get the girl to cooperate, but they just tell him to back off.
If you're picking sides of the cop or the girl here, you're falling for a trap. Think of it in terms of responsibility. The old man in the accident has to take responsibility that he may have contributed to the accident (maybe not, but at the very least he was unaware of the cyclist). He does nothing of the sort, in fact he plants suspicion by saying "we had to force her to stay". The cop has the biggest responsibility to resolve the situation. Peacefully, if possible. However, he can use whatever tactics necessary, that is his authority. He chose to use force almost immediately, disengaging any other method to do so.
What's the girl's responsibility?
One thing is obvious to us: she's a child.
How much do you personally rely on children to do any sort of duty?
That being said, she did have the responsibility to talk. It's just that the cops wouldn't let her because they were too impatient to get on with it. They had all the tools they needed to make her cooperative. The one guy talking sense was the key. They instead chose to isolate her and make it seem like it was all her fault [u]just like most people in this thread are doing[/u]
tl;dr the cops failed at doing their job, and blamed a little girl for it[/QUOTE]
They went so quickly to force because she was trying to flee, what are they just gonna talk her back once shes 10 blocks down the street.
Also the crash is all her fault, she hit the car, she refused to cooperate, she got herself pepper sprayed and detained.
[QUOTE=iNothing;51108360]You really must not know any fifteen year olds or be really disconnected from reality. A friend of mine that knows how to drive told me he'd teach when I was around sixteen. I fucked up, crashed into another car, cops were called and the guy whom I crashed into was furious. Cops came by but since I knew that you're not supposed to act like an idiot and comply and make things easier for everyone the situation got resolved in a few hours, easy as that. Fifteen year olds aren't dumbasses, people really need to stop using age as an excuse for stupid shit and like I said, fifteen is old enough. And yes, I realise that everyone is different but it's common sense to be complying when authorities are involved. Fifteen is far from being a fucking "child".[/QUOTE]
Wasn't using her age as an excuse, on the contrary I used it to support my claim.
I'm happy to see you admit that everyone is different in development, but why the immediate switch to contradict yourself in the very next clause?
Common sense is a misnomer. First of all, it's not common, let's be honest. Second of all, are you born with common sense? No, you're either taught to sense and interpret or you figure it out for yourself.
Sounds to me like you were taught. And, good for you that makes it easier as we can tell from your example.
What do you think about her 'common sense' Do you think she's been taught to cooperate her whole life to get what she wants? Or maybe it's the other where she's having to figure that out for herself now.
There is a third option being that she knows exactly what she's doing wrong and was uncooperative on purpose. After all you do suggest that she should have it figured out by 15. Is this why everyone is so pissed? Think she planned this little tantrum?
How else would you describe this behavior other than childish? Obnoxious, unruly, loud, annoying, disrespectful... Sounds like my 8 year old niece to be honest.
We could argue until the heat death of the universe about when someone 'should' learn respect and grow up, but that's not the issue here. If she really is that much of a brat then the cops and other adults should have compensated for that, just like the guy trying to talk her down was doing. Instead they used their position of power to lose any chance of gaining her respect whatsoever.
I get what you mean with them not exactly being therapeutic, but that's not a part of a cop's job. They have to deal with criminals daily. They're not really meant to be soft, they have people back at the station for that. That's where they ultimately tried to get the girl to go.
Besides, I'm not sure if that would help in this situation in particular. The girl had weed on her, she tried to escape the cops, they caught her, she freaked out.
[QUOTE=nickohlus;51108594]Wasn't using her age as an excuse, on the contrary I used it to support my claim.
I'm happy to see you admit that everyone is different in development, but why the immediate switch to contradict yourself in the very next clause?
Common sense is a misnomer. First of all, it's not common, let's be honest. Second of all, are you born with common sense? No, you're either taught to sense and interpret or you figure it out for yourself.
Sounds to me like you were taught. And, good for you that makes it easier as we can tell from your example.
What do you think about her 'common sense' Do you think she's been taught to cooperate her whole life to get what she wants? Or maybe it's the other where she's having to figure that out for herself now.
There is a third option being that she knows exactly what she's doing wrong and was uncooperative on purpose. After all you do suggest that she should have it figured out by 15. Is this why everyone is so pissed? Think she planned this little tantrum?
How else would you describe this behavior other than childish? Obnoxious, unruly, loud, annoying, disrespectful... Sounds like my 8 year old niece to be honest.
We could argue until the heat death of the universe about when someone 'should' learn respect and grow up, but that's not the issue here. If she really is that much of a brat then the cops and other adults should have compensated for that, just like the guy trying to talk her down was doing. Instead they used their position of power to lose any chance of gaining her respect whatsoever.[/QUOTE]
You aren't given a free pass because you act like a whiny little child. You're comparing a 15 year old to your 8 year old niece, do you not see a problem there? Ignorance of the law does not protect you when breaking it. Ignorance in general does not protect you from anything. I expect cops to be flexible in a situation but when they calmy approach the girl she is instantly argumentative, rude, and she says multiple times shes staying there, shes not going. She doesn't cooperate and they make her cooperate. There's no problem.
So, I get that she was loud and obnoxious and somewhat violent. But the fact that violence is the answer for American cops is so terrifying as a Brit, the whole point of cops is to prevent crime, including violence. So them perpetrating violence is never good, especially against a minor that they could've detained without attacking her with pepper spray. All over a panicked girl who thought she was in trouble for being hit by a car (and she had some weed). You think it's surprising she was scared of the officers in the current climate?
I can see this from both points of view, but fuck me America, your culture in general is so fucking violent.
[QUOTE=Rossy167;51109040]So, I get that she was loud and obnoxious and somewhat violent. But the fact that violence is the answer for American cops is so terrifying as a Brit, the whole point of cops is to prevent crime, including violence. So them perpetrating violence is never good, especially against a minor that they could've detained without attacking her with pepper spray. All over a panicked girl who thought she was in trouble for being hit by a car (and she had some weed). You think it's surprising she was scared of the officers in the current climate?
I can see this from both points of view, but fuck me America, your culture in general is so fucking violent.[/QUOTE]
No an officers job is to uphold the law, and they couldn't detain her without using pepperspray, if you watched the video you'd see that they literally couldn't close the door on the police car, so they gave her 2 warnings that if she continues she will be sprayed.
To me it seems you just have a hate boner for America than anything else because I'm pretty sure this same situation would play out exactly the same way in the UK.
At ~11:30 the officer is simply trying to find her parents and she replies "I'm gonna tell my dad. You're gonna fucking die you stupid bitch, get out of my face."
She deserved it
[QUOTE=Rossy167;51109040]So, I get that she was loud and obnoxious and somewhat violent. But the fact that violence is the answer for American cops is so terrifying as a Brit, the whole point of cops is to prevent crime, including violence. So them perpetrating violence is never good, especially against a minor that they could've detained without attacking her with pepper spray. All over a panicked girl who thought she was in trouble for being hit by a car (and she had some weed). You think it's surprising she was scared of the officers in the current climate?
I can see this from both points of view, but fuck me America, your culture in general is so fucking violent.[/QUOTE]
Officers need to uphold the law, which means that if people aren't cooperating they are given the right to go above the law and detain the person in any way they can
The girl wouldn't cooperate, there's no other way you can get her in the car than physically grabbing her
The entire idea that cops shouldn't be above the law is stupid because then they couldn't catch all criminals, say someone is speeding, they couldn't go after them because they'd be breaking the law, which they are, but they have to do it
[QUOTE=SebiWarrior;51109343]Officers need to uphold the law, which means that if people aren't cooperating they are given the right to go above the law and detain the person in any way they can
The girl wouldn't cooperate, there's no other way you can get her in the car than physically grabbing her
The entire idea that cops shouldn't be above the law is stupid because then they couldn't catch all criminals, say someone is speeding, they couldn't go after them because they'd be breaking the law, which they are, but they have to do it[/QUOTE]
In other words, law enforcement has exemptions because their job requires them.
[QUOTE=nickohlus;51108324]She is a 15 year old girl who was just in a car accident and feels like she's being blamed for it.
How else do you expect a teenager to react to a situation like this?
Yeah maybe it was mostly her fault for hitting the dude's car, but I didn't see the accident take place. I did see the guy's hands fumbly and shaky hands drop the contents of his wallet though. Maybe that contributed to the accident. And before you way "he was just nervous in front of the cop" what do you think that translates to for the young girl?
The most shocking thing in this video that I noticed was how quick the transition from talking to force was. He didn't waste 2 minutes trying to calm her down, he just went for it. That's impatience. No wonder she reacted the way she did. The only sensible person is the guy trying to help the girl calm down. He's the ONLY ONE in the video who understands what needs to be done to get the girl to cooperate, but they just tell him to back off.
If you're picking sides of the cop or the girl here, you're falling for a trap. Think of it in terms of responsibility. The old man in the accident has to take responsibility that he may have contributed to the accident (maybe not, but at the very least he was unaware of the cyclist). He does nothing of the sort, in fact he plants suspicion by saying "we had to force her to stay". The cop has the biggest responsibility to resolve the situation. Peacefully, if possible. However, he can use whatever tactics necessary, that is his authority. He chose to use force almost immediately, disengaging any other method to do so.
What's the girl's responsibility?
One thing is obvious to us: she's a child.
How much do you personally rely on children to do any sort of duty?
That being said, she did have the responsibility to talk. It's just that the cops wouldn't let her because they were too impatient to get on with it. They had all the tools they needed to make her cooperative. The one guy talking sense was the key. They instead chose to isolate her and make it seem like it was all her fault [u]just like most people in this thread are doing[/u]
tl;dr the cops failed at doing their job, and blamed a little girl for it[/QUOTE]
You are wrong on so many levels.
Older guy is shaking because hes been involved in a traumatic event. Adrenaline does that. The female is agitated not from the event, but because shes being told she cant leave and that her parents have to be contacted (by law).
Cops used force to detain her since she tried to leave the scene. If she leaves, thats a crime. She doesnt like that and wants to then physically resist the cops which leads to more force being used and her being handcuffed. Officers exercised the minimum amount of force necessary to gain complaince from the female after talking to her wasnt working.
Her responsibility: Give her statement, her information, and her parents contact information.
TLDR cops tried to do their job but a 15 year old uncoopertive girl made them arrest someone and fill out more paperwork than necessary.
TLDR-DR: A 15 minute call turns into a 2 hour call because someone involved in the accident doesnt want to cooperate.
TLDR-DR-DR: Dont post on these matters again.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;51109603]You are wrong on so many levels.
Older guy is shaking because hes been involved in a traumatic event. Adrenaline does that. The female is agitated not from the event, but because shes being told she cant leave and that her parents have to be contacted (by law).
Cops used force to detain her since she tried to leave the scene. If she leaves, thats a crime. She doesnt like that and wants to then physically resist the cops which leads to more force being used and her being handcuffed. Officers exercised the minimum amount of force necessary to gain complaince from the female after talking to her wasnt working.
Her responsibility: Give her statement, her information, and her parents contact information.
TLDR cops tried to do their job but a 15 year old uncoopertive girl made them arrest someone and fill out more paperwork than necessary.
TLDR-DR: A 15 minute call turns into a 2 hour call because someone involved in the accident doesnt want to cooperate.
TLDR-DR-DR: Dont post on these matters again.[/QUOTE]
Dang I didn't know I would be pressing so many buttons by defending a cyclist, but I admit I do so enjoy upsetting people on facepunch.
I will continue to post my opinions anywhere anytime as is my right to do so as long as I follow the rules of the forum, and I don't need your permission to do so. That kind of veiled threat may spook the kiddies though, so if that makes you feel cool, keep it up. Maybe you can crash into 15 year old cyclists with your car and then bully them afterwards, might be more rewarding for you.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Trolling" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=nickohlus;51109842]Dang I didn't know I would be pressing so many buttons by defending a cyclist, but I admit I do so enjoy upsetting people on facepunch.[/QUOTE]
Ironic shitposting is still shitposting.
Is this what you resort to when you get called out on your ignorance?
[QUOTE=nickohlus;51109842]Dang I didn't know I would be pressing so many buttons by defending a cyclist, but I admit I do so enjoy upsetting people on facepunch.
I will continue to post my opinions anywhere anytime as is my right to do so as long as I follow the rules of the forum, and I don't need your permission to do so. That kind of veiled threat may spook the kiddies though, so if that makes you feel cool, keep it up. Maybe you can crash into 15 year old cyclists with your car and then bully them afterwards, might be more rewarding for you.[/QUOTE]
I think everyone can tell whose buttons have been pressed.
Comply what the Police say and you won't need no trouble.
God Bless Them.
[QUOTE=SebiWarrior;51109343]
The entire idea that cops shouldn't be above the law is stupid because then they couldn't catch all criminals, say someone is speeding, they couldn't go after them because they'd be breaking the law, which they are, but they have to do it[/QUOTE]
I see what you are trying to say but I don't agree with your wording. No one is above the law, cops just have exceptions so that they can do their jobs, but those exceptions are in law, hence they are still not above it.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;51110150]Ironic shitposting is still shitposting.
Is this what you resort to when you get called out on your ignorance?[/QUOTE]
I wasn't playing devil's advocate for the sole purpose of stirring up shit for the giggles - I legitimately take my stance from this position on this issue. In other words, this is my opinion on it. I don't see anything wrong with that.
However, I have been called ignorant, wrong, and been given a veiled internet tough guy threat ("don't post here again")
Maybe you're the one who's resorting to something, I'm just the one enjoying the show.
People are just as free to call you out on your opinions, stop blaming the way things have always been, you're being dishonest
I really cant understand how so many of you are defending the use of such force on a 15 year old girl. I mean I see that she was being un-cooperative but just wow at how many of you think she deserved the treatment she got.
[QUOTE=billibobc;51110816]I really cant understand how so many of you are defending the use of such force on a 15 year old girl. I mean I see that she was being un-cooperative but just wow at how many of you think she deserved the treatment she got.[/QUOTE]
Would you rather she got sprayed in the face, which hurts, but isn't physically damaging, or would you rather they force her compliance through pure physical force? Keep in mind that they could have easily broken or sprained her legs in the process of forcing compliance, and it would have been 100% justified given that she violently resisted arrest and damaged equipment in doing so.
That's what happens when you fight police. She should count herself lucky if she doesn't get an array of assault charges for her violent and confrontational behavior.
why didn't she leave far earlier if she didn't want to be there? i mean i know its technically a crime but....
[QUOTE=billibobc;51110816]I really cant understand how so many of you are defending the use of such force on a 15 year old girl. I mean I see that she was being un-cooperative but just wow at how many of you think she deserved the treatment she got.[/QUOTE]
What were they [I]supposed[/I] to do? She's trying to leave a crime-scene, they need her statement and information.
They need to keep her there, when they approach her she tries run off, so they have to detain her to get information, they try calming her down and asking her to not make it worse. Then she starts kicking them (Assaulting police is not a good idea), they decide to take her to the car. Once they get her in the car, she's preventing them from closing it, and kicking at the door/them, so they pepper'd her for what I consider at this point her own safety.
The sad thing is that if she had just complied with them, this never would have happened.
[editline]Later bruh[/editline]
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51108313]She obviously made this situation a hell of a lot worse than it needed to be by struggling so much, but I can't help but wonder what she's got going on at home. Her main concern seemed to be her parents finding out, and she kept begging the officers to call a cop named "Zach," who she trusted. Makes me wonder if maybe there's a history of abuse or issues at home, and that maybe Officer Zach had been a trusted resource for her? Somebody who understood what her home life was like and could help her deal with this?[/QUOTE]
I'm glad somebody else noticed this. I also wouldn't be surprised if she actually had some mental issues, the weird escalation from the police trying to talk to her and her yelling "Don't fucking touch me" and yelling about OCD, to the screaming, seemed a bit weird, like a meltdown you'd see a spectrum kid having.
[QUOTE=nickohlus;51109842]I will continue to post my opinions anywhere anytime as is my right to do so as long as I follow the rules of the forum
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Trolling" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
This was beautiful
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;51110944]Would you rather she got sprayed in the face, which hurts, but isn't physically damaging, or would you rather they force her compliance through pure physical force? Keep in mind that they could have easily broken or sprained her legs in the process of forcing compliance, and it would have been 100% justified given that she violently resisted arrest and damaged equipment in doing so.
That's what happens when you fight police. She should count herself lucky if she doesn't get an array of assault charges for her violent and confrontational behavior.[/QUOTE]
I don't know what video you were watching but they most definitely used physical force in addition to pepper spraying her. I mean this is a 15 year old girl were talking about here, aren't the police trained to use force in accordance with the situation they're faced with?
If this was a buff ass dude who was threatening them physically then sure but a 15 year old delinquent, come on.
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