[QUOTE=johnlmonkey;39398414]Pretty sure it's easier to grow pot than to make a gun. In order to make a gun it seems like it would require extensive knowledge of firearms and metal smithing and whatnot. It's not as simple as putting a seed in soil under a lamp.[/QUOTE]
Considering that people have been able to make functional single shot firearms whilst in prison with limited (or no) tools? You don't need an extensive knowledge of metalworking, and all you have to understand about firearms is roughly how a cartridge is propelled down a barrel (Hint: Expanding gasses and path of least resistance).
[QUOTE=johnlmonkey;39398414]Pretty sure it's easier to grow pot than to make a gun. In order to make a gun it seems like it would require extensive knowledge of firearms and metal smithing and whatnot. It's not as simple as putting a seed in soil under a lamp.[/QUOTE]
Easy enough for Chechens to make em...
[url]http://englishrussia.com/2007/06/04/chechen-self-made-weapons/[/url]
[QUOTE=Daemonshadow;39398468]Considering that people have been able to make functional single shot firearms whilst in prison with limited (or no) tools? You don't need an extensive knowledge of metalworking, and all you have to understand about firearms is roughly how a cartridge is propelled down a barrel (Hint: Expanding gasses and path of least resistance).[/QUOTE]
I'd be surprised if there was some sort of gun ban that resulted in as many americans making bootleg guns and americans that illegally grow pot today. Seriously, it's silly to suggest such a thing especially since these bootleg guns would likely non durable, weaker weapons.
[QUOTE=johnlmonkey;39398437]It's easier than building a gun. Trust me, I live in NY, pot is easier to get than cough syrup here.[/QUOTE]
but if you actually want to have a profitable supply of said pot you'd need a small greenhouse of sorts. Like, indoor crops and dripping systems and all that jazz
The infrastructure you'd need to invest in wouldn't be short of making a simple gun
[QUOTE=Ridge;39398479]Easy enough for Chechens to make em...
[url]http://englishrussia.com/2007/06/04/chechen-self-made-weapons/[/url][/QUOTE]
I don't see what nationality has to do with it, also a large chunk of those weapons seem to be "salvaged" and made of other gun parts rather than from scratch entirely.
[QUOTE=johnlmonkey;39398484]I'd be surprised if there was some sort of gun ban that resulted in as many americans making bootleg guns and americans that illegally grow pot today. Seriously, it's silly to suggest such a thing especially since these bootleg guns would likely non durable, weaker weapons.[/QUOTE]
which hopefully would be used to aquire stronger weapons
[QUOTE=BFG9000;39398494]but if you actually want to have a profitable supply of said pot you'd need a small greenhouse of sorts. Like, indoor crops and dripping systems and all that jazz
The infrastructure you'd need to invest in wouldn't be short of making a simple gun[/QUOTE]
I'm not talking about starting a drug dealing business I'm just talking about the process of actually growing the plant in comparison to the process of building a gun.
[editline]29th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=BFG9000;39398500]which hopefully would be used to aquire stronger weapons[/QUOTE]
This hypothetical "everyone is building their own guns and using them to get powerful guns" scenario is starting to sound like a Fallout-type post apocalyptic situation. It's unrealistic to think people would bootleg weapons in mass numbers and then use them to acquire stronger weapons. It makes no sense.
[QUOTE=Megafan;39398260]Isn't that just 'easy' in terms of making things out of metal. That is, a person just trying to do it right off the bat would have a tough time doing it, especially if it's an example like this with cannibalized parts.[/QUOTE]
Well, no, that was a drunk dude with a funky idea, not a gunsmith. People with practice regularly do significantly better with worse materials. There's a VICE documentary on the Pakistani gun market that shows what a few guys with better than scrap and a clue can do. If you look over Chechen or hobby weapons, though, it becomes apparent any idiot can make a functional one. It just requires tools.
[QUOTE=johnlmonkey;39398501]I'm not talking about starting a drug dealing business I'm just talking about the process of actually growing the plant in comparison to the process of building a gun.
[editline]29th January 2013[/editline]
This hypothetical "everyone is building their own guns and using them to get powerful guns" scenario is starting to sound like a Fallout-type post apocalyptic situation. It's unrealistic to think people would bootleg weapons in mass numbers and then use them to acquire stronger weapons. It makes no sense.[/QUOTE]
How does it not make sense? People will have guns regardless of how many you ban or melt down. They WILL find a way, I just suggested a hypothetical situation should America turn into a shithole
besides, guns are pretty straightforward:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjzTwEIxlzs[/url]
[QUOTE=johnlmonkey;39398484]I'd be surprised if there was some sort of gun ban that resulted in as many americans making bootleg guns and americans that illegally grow pot today. Seriously, it's silly to suggest such a thing especially since these bootleg guns would likely non durable, weaker weapons.[/QUOTE]
You clearly don't know the first thing about making a gun.
Pretty much everything you need to make an SMG like a Sten can be found at a hardware store and scrounged from a junkyard for parts that need alloy steel. Gun shows often have vendors with junk parts too so you can find a rifled pistol barrel to adapt into a build pretty cheaply. If you don't want to design the gun yourself you can find blueprints for all sorts of production guns like the Sten or PPSh 41, not to mention Philip Luty's gun which was basically designed around the idea of a cheap, easy to make SMG. An AK is actually harder to build than any one of those SMGs, which is saying something. Additionally, if you have no access to alloy steel to use as a barrel, you can reload the brass cartridges with black powder which has much lower pressures and it takes longer for it to reach peak pressure. Black powder can also be made very easily, and bullets cast out of wheel weight lead, which is a hard lead-tin alloy and thus perfect for rifled barrels.
Making an SMG from scratch basically revolves around printing out patterns, gluing them to the metal sheet, tubing and stock as a guide then grinding, filing and cutting till you've got the finished parts. Tempering the parts isn't hard either since most of the gun is made of mild steel, just get a really hot fire going and put the parts in the coals until they're orange hot, chuck em into a bucket of water, then put em in an oven at 600-700 degrees for about an hour and let em air cool and if you don't have an oven that can get that hot a gas torch will do the job as well, just heat the part till it turns blue and set it aside to air cool on a bit of wood.
If you want to go the extra mile you can get a jug of drain cleaner, boil it with some added water to get rid of the aluminum then submerse the parts in there to hot blue them, but it's toxic and potentially dangerous. You can also use something as simple as PCB etching fluid, coat the part with it and wait till it rusts up with a nice even coat then brush the active rust off with some 0000 steel wool to brown the part and if you don't like the brown you can boil it in distilled water to turn the Ferric Oxide which is red/brown into Ferric Ferrous Oxide which is blue/black, the browning/rust bluing process is much safer to do too, though harder to get right.
I'm also hoping that that 3D gun printing fad takes off; and here's to hoping that they develop stronger materials to print with too (for the barrels)
[QUOTE=johnlmonkey;39398414]Pretty sure it's easier to grow pot than to make a gun. In order to make a gun it seems like it would require extensive knowledge of firearms and metal smithing and whatnot. It's not as simple as putting a seed in soil under a lamp.[/QUOTE]
Point is it's not that complex. Ammunition is difficult, if only because there are components most people can't manufacture (propellant, boxer primer), but a gun just needs a thing to go thwack on a piece of metal fairly hard and the ability to pull it back and do it again. Repeaters just require the ability to guess material tolerances and do basic impulse/momentum equations.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;39398648]I'm also hoping that that 3D gun printing fad takes off; and here's to hoping that they develop stronger materials to print with too (for the barrels)[/QUOTE]
The AK you see in this thread with the monstrously heavy barrel basically started out as a rifled tube for a 7.62 bullet, no chamber for a cartridge at all. These barrel blanks are pretty cheap, sometimes a low as $30, the idea is you can put them in a lathe and create your own profile so it's not so heavy then ream out a chamber, course all that guy did for that gun was ream a chamber and weld everything onto the barrel, crude but effective.
You could do a similar thing with 3D printed guns, just ream out the barrel and 3D print a solid plastic receiver to fit around it, possibly with grooves cut in it so the plastic has more surface area to grab onto, making it less likely to break. You could also insert a thin metal tube into the receiver like a sleeve to keep the bolt from wearing through it.
[QUOTE=johnlmonkey;39398501]It's unrealistic to think people would bootleg weapons in mass numbers and then use them to acquire stronger weapons. It makes no sense.[/QUOTE]
The US made guns exactly for that purpose and dropped them into Nazi-occupied countries for the resistance to use.
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator[/URL]
[QUOTE] A resistance fighter was to recover the weapon, sneak up on an [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_powers"]Axis[/URL] occupier, kill or incapacitate him, and retrieve his weapons.[/QUOTE]
They cost $2.10 to make back then.
[QUOTE=RR_Raptor65;39398695]The AK you see in this thread with the monstrously heavy barrel basically started out as a rifled tube for a 7.62 bullet, no chamber for a cartridge at all. These barrel blanks are pretty cheap, sometimes a low as $30, the idea is you can put them in a lathe and create your own profile so it's not so heavy then ream out a chamber, course all that guy did for that gun was ream a chamber and weld everything onto the barrel, crude but effective.
You could do a similar thing with 3D printed guns, just ream out the barrel and 3D print a solid plastic receiver to fit around it, possibly with grooves cut in it so the plastic has more surface area to grab onto, making it less likely to break. You could also insert a thin metal tube into the receiver like a sleeve to keep the bolt from wearing through it.[/QUOTE]
But where do we turn in the off chance that these barrel blanks are banned?
[editline]28th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ridge;39398726]The US made guns exactly for that purpose and dropped them into Nazi-occupied countries for the resistance to use.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator[/url]
They cost $2.10 to make back then.[/QUOTE]
Holy crap that's kickass
Why have I never heard of this
you guys are proving two things:
>people are smart and ingenuitive enough to know how to build a gun out of scrap metal (provided you have parts of a gun to make it out of)
>the same people are not smart enough to understand pot is a stupid plant that stoners can grow in their closet under [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/shortcuts/2012/dec/09/porsche-owners-beware-cannabis-growers]the right kind of lightbulb[/url]
and the argument "they'll get it anyways" is one of the shittiest excuses for not doing anything, right next to the above listed
[QUOTE=BFG9000;39398737]But where do we turn in the off chance that these barrel blanks are banned?[/QUOTE]
4130 or better alloy steel rods of sufficient diameter so the barrel doesn't burst, then you can make a rifling jig using small files to cut the rifling, wooden wedges to gradually raise the files as you make each pass and some grease to keep it from getting stuck. Making a rifled barrel isn't all that hard really, it's just a matter of taking the time to make a rifling machine, after that there's no limit to what you can make.
Though as I mentioned, you can safely use Mild steel or even plain old iron, brass or bronze for black powder barrels, and they can be rather thin and light as well, my .75 caliber matchlock has a barrel only a quarter inch thick at the breech and less than 1/8th of an inch thick at the muzzle, this could easily accept a large pistol or rifle cartridge loaded with black powder. And since these metals are softer they'd take less time to make and you'd be able to make a LOT more of them before you'd need to sharpen your cutters again, and you can keep sharpening the cutters until they're too small to do their job and with the brass and bronze you'd get even more life out of the cutter, though you'd have to occasionally pick bits of stuck filings out of it so the edge can do it's work.
This machine would not be difficult to make primarily out of wood, and could be hand cranked:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_yemjfgkE0[/media]
This is a lathe with plastic gears to create the twist in the rifling as the cutter is run through the barrel:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piaZjbdu4Ok[/media]
This one would be extremely simple to build, though a larger more robust version might be necessary for larger barrels.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tiG2HHMcxE[/media]
[QUOTE=daijitsu;39398810]you guys are proving two things:
>people are smart and ingenuitive enough to know how to build a gun out of scrap metal (provided you have parts of a gun to make it out of)
>the same people are not smart enough to understand pot is a stupid plant that stoners can grow in their closet under [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/shortcuts/2012/dec/09/porsche-owners-beware-cannabis-growers]the right kind of lightbulb[/url]
and the argument "they'll get it anyways" is one of the shittiest excuses for not doing anything, right next to the above listed[/QUOTE]
If you want to 'just grow pot' you can do so, if you want to maximize the potential growth and output, breed for better yield then you'd need more specialized conditions. I saw a documentary on pot awhile ago where a guy had a whole room dedicated to growing, the room was climate controlled with specific humidity and light preferences taken from years of experimentation to get what he felt were the ideal conditions to grow the plants. He also selectively bred the plants like you would cattle to get the best of the best.
No different with making a gun, if you just want something that shoots, you can get a pipe, a shot shell and something pointy like a nail or a screw. Set the nail in one end of the pipe and physically slam it closed to fire the shot shell. Very dangerous, but it works.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1wV3lmbSv4[/media]
Perhaps I'm just out of touch, but how well does the average person (gun or no gun) know how to operate machinery like a lathe or weld pieces of sheet metal together to make a firearm?
[QUOTE=daijitsu;39398810]and the argument "they'll get it anyways" is one of the shittiest excuses for not doing anything, right next to the above listed[/QUOTE]
Nobody needs an excuse not to do something, they need a compelling reason to do something.
The ATF and FBI have stated that a large amount of firearms used in crimes come from under-the-table and straw purchases, and most illegal guns get used between two and three years after their initial purchase in a crime, with the primary culprits being retailers and the reason for this crime being profit. Think about that for a couple seconds. If you make something harder for a law-abiding citizen to own, you haven't affected that market. If you make weapons harder to sell legally, you haven't affected that market. If you make weapons harder to manufacture (and assuming you even can, which is impossible given lobbying), well, it takes two idiots with a garage to start producing the types of weapons criminals favor, and you just removed their only competition.
There are thriving garage gun markets in other countries where gun crime is prevalent but retail isn't, and the US already has a massive black market for firearms. What the fuck do you think is going to happen if you arbitrarily ban shit?
[QUOTE=Megafan;39398886]Perhaps I'm just out of touch, but how well does the average person (gun or no gun) know how to operate machinery like a lathe or weld pieces of sheet metal together to make a firearm?[/QUOTE]
I taught myself how to do all this stuff, I've never once taken a class of any kind, just lots of reading and hitting things with hammers. It's not hard, what a most people lack is the patience and confidence to work metal and wood and I've got patience in abundance (If you don't believe me, pop over to GD and look for my Emu hatch thread), confidence only grows with experience. It's not uncommon for me to open my shop up to people who want to learn to make something, all I ask is they bring their own materials. Ability is just a part of human nature I assure you, doesn't matter if you want to make a gun, a knife or a nice necklace for your girl. Whatever you may think about what I've posted earlier, I don't condone the making of illegal firearms like the Luty gun or a Zip gun, I'd like to be able to register to make these guns though (And the [url=http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf]legal forms do exist[/url], though they are no longer accepted due to the Hughes Amendment closing the registry).
And you do not NEED to have a lathe or a welder, I don't have a lathe and in the absence of a welder of some kind you can use metal rods as rivets, and those rivets are often stronger than the welds anyway. Welds can crack at the joint if you try to pry the two pieces apart, but do that with a rivet and you'll find it to be damn near impossible to do unless you drill or grind the rivet away first, otherwise you'll just mangle the whole part into a twisted mess and the rivet will still be there laughing at your pitiful attempt to defeat it.
[QUOTE=Megafan;39398886]Perhaps I'm just out of touch, but how well does the average person (gun or no gun) know how to operate machinery like a lathe or weld pieces of sheet metal together to make a firearm?[/QUOTE]
In theory, if you're dedicated enough, then even the poorest & most retarded moron could make something amazing.
[url]http://jalopnik.com/basement-lamborghini/[/url]
[url]http://kiengineering.com/The_Bull.php[/url]
it would be impossible to ban firearms, but greatly reducing the number of them in the hands of the wrong persons can, and will only be a good thing.
[QUOTE=Van-man;39399072]In theory, if you're dedicated enough, then even the poorest & most retarded moron could make something amazing.
[url]http://jalopnik.com/basement-lamborghini/[/url]
[url]http://kiengineering.com/The_Bull.php[/url]
it would be impossible to ban firearms, but greatly reducing the number of them in the hands of the wrong persons can, and will only be a good thing.[/QUOTE]
Exactly this, everything in the current proposal would do that except the AWB and capacity restrictions
You guys were wanting proof that Obama goes shooting, well apparently so does CNN's host,
[QUOTE]“Obama the skeet shooter,” she began. “Yeah, I’m not making this up. I mean, if someone is, it isn’t me.”
She then played the clip of CNN’s Jessica Yellin confronting Press Secretary Jay Carney on the comments, repeatedly asking if a picture of the activity existed and why no one had ever heard of him doing it before.
Burnett then turned to a panel where she said there’s “skepticism” among conservatives and non-conservatives about the president’s claim.
“So, now you’re going to say you do it all the time, don’t you have to kind of prove it?” she asked.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/01/29/skeeter-a-cnn-journalist-did-a-segment-insinuating-obamas-lying-about-his-shooting/[/url]
It's nice to know Obama isn't entirely one of those "I hate guns, will never touch them, and don't want anyone else to have them", but I can understand it's kind of insulting to hear "I go shooting all the time!" from someone spearheading an effort to ban guns they don't like. It's like hearing "I like cars, I drive my Prius all the time!" from a politician that just introduced a bill to ban sports cars because they say "Speeding is illegal, so why do you need a car that can go fast? There's no legitimate reason to have that car."
This is my #1 problem with gun control, all their arguments could be applied to cars, video games, stereo systems, and anything else that someone can say "Well, why do you need that?"
Fuck you, I don't need it, I want it. I don't have to justify having things I like to some bureaucrat.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;39402423]It's nice to know Obama isn't entirely one of those "I hate guns, will never touch them, and don't want anyone else to have them", but I can understand it's kind of insulting to hear "I go shooting all the time!" from someone spearheading an effort to ban guns they don't like. It's like hearing "I like cars, I drive my Prius all the time!" from a politician that just introduced a bill to ban sports cars because they say "Speeding is illegal, so why do you need a car that can go fast? There's no legitimate reason to have that car."
This is my #1 problem with gun control, all their arguments could be applied to cars, video games, stereo systems, and anything else that someone can say "Well, why do you need that?"
Fuck you, I don't need it, I want it. I don't have to justify having things I like to some bureaucrat.[/QUOTE]
It's nothing like those things, though. In your hands - yeah, you're probably not dangerous. In someone else's? Yep, they're are very much dangerous. Cars can be dangerous, too, but it's much better at transporting than making robberies and murders. You guys really need to drop that argument, it just makes you seem outrageous.
And while Obama [I]is[/I] suggesting an AWB, that's a very small part of the plan he's laid out. I don't agree with the AWB, as I don't think it'll do anything, but I don't think it'll go through, either.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39402875]It's nothing like those things, though. In your hands - yeah, you're probably not dangerous. In someone else's? Yep, they're are very much dangerous. Cars can be dangerous, too, but it's much better at transporting than making robberies and murders. You guys really need to drop that argument, it just makes you seem outrageous.
And while Obama [I]is[/I] suggesting an AWB, that's a very small part of the plan he's laid out. I don't agree with the AWB, as I don't think it'll do anything, but I don't think it'll go through, either.[/QUOTE]
The thing is that they're sort of pushing it as an all-or-nothing thing, so if the AWB and Hi capacity magazine bullshit isn't removed, the entire effort will go to waste and everyone will blame the GOP like usual
[QUOTE=BFG9000;39403339]The thing is that they're sort of pushing it as an all-or-nothing thing, so if the AWB and Hi capacity magazine bullshit isn't removed, the entire effort will go to waste and everyone will blame the GOP like usual[/QUOTE]
The GOP will be blamed regardless.
If it passes, it will be in spite of the GOP. If something similar happens while the ban is in place, it will be because the GOP removed the teeth of the bill.
Seriously, fuck partisan politics.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;39403339]The thing is that they're sort of pushing it as an all-or-nothing thing, so if the AWB and Hi capacity magazine bullshit isn't removed, the entire effort will go to waste and everyone will blame the GOP like usual[/QUOTE]
Obama is not stupid by any means - he knows the AWB most probably won't pass congress. It is very likely that he put it on there, simply as a political statement. And only a small part of his bill is about the AWB, and the very largest part is sensible stuff. Try and read it: [url]http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2013/01/politics/obama-gun-control-plan/index.html[/url]
And ignore the AWB part, it won't pass the house at all. The rest is relevant.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39403938]Obama is not stupid by any means - he knows the AWB most probably won't pass congress. It is very likely that he put it on there, simply as a political statement. And only a small part of his bill is about the AWB, and the very largest part is sensible stuff. Try and read it: [url]http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2013/01/politics/obama-gun-control-plan/index.html[/url]
And ignore the AWB part, it won't pass the house at all. The rest is relevant.[/QUOTE]
well, are "high" capacity bans part of the AWB? Because I don't want to move out of the shithole that is California only to find that every other part of the US is California now and won't let me buy standard capacity magazines
They need to give both of those up, honestly. (also I didn't explicitly say he was stupid, just for the record)
[QUOTE=Kai-ryuu;39385890]the Liberal media is at it again it seems. Trying to indoctrinate young conservative minds by reporting that their puppet-in-charge is similar to them simply because he goes shooting and enjoys being a 2nd amendment wielding, red-blooded, American when in fact he's nothing but a Islamic Muslim who is out to destroy God's country and enslave the young people to follow the Liberal agenda until all rights and freedom's are stamped out by the underside of his blood-stained boots.[/QUOTE]
I can't tell if this is trolling or satire...
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