• New Polling of British Muslims Shows 52% Think Homosexuality Should Be Illegal, 23% Want Sharia
    116 replies, posted
[QUOTE=da space core;50112283]the point many people are trying to make, including myself, is that the actual religion of islam (or any religion) is not the actual cause. any religion can be modernized and adapted, as we see with religions such as christianity, judism, and even islam here in the west. Even if you were somehow magically capable of removing islam from the picture, you really wouldn't solve anything. the problem is that many countries in the middle east of limited access to education and outside influence, and have become very conservative and closed minded. If you magically delete all religion, they would simply find a new excuse to be that way.[/QUOTE] But why is it that a large majority of Islamic followers are being converted and radicalised alot easier compared to Christian followers in recent years? As for "They would find a new excuse", what similar excuse would involve believing in a religion that worships a pedophile? You may believe it isn't the cause but it has a very large influence in all Islamic terrorist attacks. When was the last time there was a terrorist attack by a Christian Radical Group or a Buddhist Radical Group and in such a consistent frequency?
They are muslims, is normal say that stupidities [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming/Racism" - Novangel))[/highlight]
Good thing we're a progressive country and don't make our laws based on just what the British Muslim population wants then, we make it based on what all of our different population wants or whatever the current leading government wants lol
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;50111314]This is so fucking dirty and dishonest, why are you even trying to fling shit at Christianity? Does that justify these beliefs from muslims? Not to mention that you're manipulating information and outright lying. Do you think christians react the same way as muslims towards LGBT population??? Can you tell me your answer with a straight face? Ask any LGBT person where would he rather live.[/QUOTE] So where would an LGBT person live rather, in Russia or Tunisia?
[QUOTE=Chopstick;50112405]Good thing we're a progressive country and don't make our laws based on just what the British Muslim population wants then, we make it based on what all of our different population wants or whatever the current leading government wants lol[/QUOTE] Europe in overall
[QUOTE=UnknownDude;50110663]1000 is a ridicilously small sample size. The UK has almost 1.6 million muslims. I don't think they even bothered to spread out their sample size either. My guess is they just talked to 1000 muslims in a few close-knit communities in like 2 or 3 towns max.[/QUOTE] Your first sentence makes it clear you have no idea what you're talking about. 1000 is a perfectly fine sample size, anyhow, a lot of people have already called you out on that. But you also can't just say "oh I bet the sample isn't representative at all" without providing any kind of documentation or at least a half-decent argument to go along with it. It would be the same as if I told everyone in this thread "don't listen to Unknowndude, I think he's an alien" - it's literally just your guess and that guess is from someone who has just proven to Facepunch that he has absolutely no idea about one of the most basic principles of statistics. How you can go into a thread and so confidently talk about things you clearly don't understand is beyond me. I seriously hope the ratings on your post do not imply that the same number of people agree with you, because holy crap that's a lot of people who are seriously misinformed, and that would be scary.
[QUOTE=Guardian218;50111877]I find it hilarious how some people on here are so determined to defend Muslims with these views no matter what wrongs they do as if they'll get pat on the backs for being so "Progressive". I remember with the Airport bombing last month that rather than try and blame the cause of the bombing, users on here were just consistently defending Islam as if it is some "Religion of Peace". Some of you really need to get your heads out of the clouds :v: Also I'm fully aware that some Christians share the same types of views and they are just as bad but can we not criticise Islam for having members who share the same views as well? Or is it exempt from any criticism?[/QUOTE] Imagine what the replies would be in this thread if it was "New Polling of British Christians Shows 52% Think Homosexuality Should Be Illegal" There is too much conflation of race and religion and it's getting to the dangerous point of people being called racist for disagreeing with an ideology.
[QUOTE=Guardian218;50112330]But why is it that a large majority of Islamic followers are being converted and radicalised alot easier compared to Christian followers in recent years? As for "They would find a new excuse", what similar excuse would involve believing in a religion that worships a pedophile? You may believe it isn't the cause but it has a very large influence in all Islamic terrorist attacks. When was the last time there was a terrorist attack by a Christian Radical Group or a Buddhist Radical Group and in such a consistent frequency?[/QUOTE] Perhaps its related to the fact that the countries with Christian majorities dont have crippling governments, if not run by a terrorist organization altogether. I am on my phone now so i cant get the link, but i have shown that the countries in the middle east that have the lowest standards of living were the ones that suffer from these problems. Access to information, education, and alternative ideals is what can turn this around. Doing "something about Islam" ignores the root of the issue
[QUOTE=da space core;50112781]Perhaps its related to the fact that the countries with Christian majorities dont have crippling governments, if not run by a terrorist organization altogether. I am on my phone now so i cant get the link, but i have shown that the countries in the middle east that have the lowest standards of living were the ones that suffer from these problems. Access to information, education, and alternative ideals is what can turn this around. Doing "something about Islam" ignores the root of the issue[/QUOTE] Yup testiment to this. Think of what attitude a poor, undeveloped christian nation would have toward gays. [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjnrLt3VuSM"]I hav doon a little beet of resach[/URL] (warning this is a parental guidance video)
[QUOTE=da space core;50112781]Perhaps its related to the fact that the countries with Christian majorities dont have crippling governments, if not run by a terrorist organization altogether. I am on my phone now so i cant get the link, but i have shown that the countries in the middle east that have the lowest standards of living were the ones that suffer from these problems. Access to information, education, and alternative ideals is what can turn this around. Doing "something about Islam" ignores the root of the issue[/QUOTE] But how much is Islamic fundamentalism itself the cause of the lack of development? It is a chicken and egg problem.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50111836]They want homosexuality to be illegal. That isn't the same as 'disapproving' of homosexuality. Apparently the control group had a result of 11% wanting homosexuality to be illegal, so British Muslims are (by this measure) five times more homophobic than the British public as a whole.[/QUOTE] i know plenty of states that wanted it to be illegal even after the SC outlawed outlawing such things in 2004. ya its bad but thats not totally out of the range that other places have
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50112829]But how much is Islamic fundamentalism itself the cause of the lack of development? It is a chicken and egg problem.[/QUOTE] Look no further than iran, where protests occur for womens rights, voting rights, free speech, and other things that we take for granted here. And the response from the government is often violence. Then the government uses islam as an excuse for their actions. You stated "Islamic fundamentalism." any type of religious fundamentalism is pretty extreme and cause problems. Once again, education and time is the only way to counter it
Okay, I don't entirely agree, but why are we getting these retrograde attitudes in the west, in countries with free, universal education, often from people who have lived in the UK for their entire life? If education is the answer, then how much is needed? These countries aren't going to be as educated as the UK for decades. [editline]11th April 2016[/editline] [url]http://www.economist.com/node/17730424[/url] To preface this: I'm completely aware of the differences between Jihadism (violent political Islam), Islamism (political Islam) and conservative/fundamentalist Islam. But I think this still addresses the same problems: Many terrorists are highly educated. In fact, disproportionately. [QUOTE]Some terrorists certainly fit this profile. Yet the ranks of high-profile terrorism suspects also boast plenty of middle-class, well-educated people. The would-be Times Square bomber, Faisal Shehzad, boasts an MBA and is the son of a senior Pakistani air-force officer. Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, who stands accused of lighting a makeshift bomb on a transatlantic flight in the so-called “underwear plot”, had a degree from University College, London, and is the son of a rich Nigerian banker. The suspected suicide-bomber in this week's attacks in Stockholm had a degree from a British university. Are well-heeled terrorists representative or are they exceptions to the rule? Social scientists have collected a large amount of data on the socioeconomic background of terrorists. According to a 2008 survey of such studies by Alan Krueger of Princeton University, they have found little evidence that the typical terrorist is unusually poor or badly schooled. Claude Berrebi of the RAND Corporation compared the characteristics of suicide-bombers recruited by Hamas and Islamic Jihad from the West Bank and Gaza with those of the general adult male Palestinian population. [B]Nearly 60% of suicide-bombers had more than a high-school education, compared with less than 15% of the general population. They were less than half as likely to come from an impoverished family as an average adult man from the general population. Mr Krueger carried out a similar exercise in Lebanon by collecting biographical information for Hizbullah militants. They too proved to be better educated and less likely to be from poor families than the general population of the Shia-dominated southern areas of Lebanon from which most came.[/B] There is also no evidence that sympathy for terrorism is greater among deprived people. In a series of surveys carried out as part of the Pew Global Attitudes Project in 2004, adults in Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan and Turkey were asked whether they believed that suicide-bombing aimed at American or other Western targets in Iraq was justified. Their answers could be broken down by the respondents' level of education. Although the proportions varied greatly between countries (with support lowest in Turkey), more schooling usually correlated with more agreement. [B]Some argue that poverty could be at the root of terror even if terrorists are not themselves poor. Anger about poverty in the countries they are from could cause richer citizens of poor countries to join terrorist organisations. This idea can be tested by looking across countries to see if there is a link between a country's GDP per head and its propensity to produce terrorists. Mr Krueger did precisely this by looking at data on 956 terrorist events between 1997 and 2003. He found that the poorest countries, those with low literacy, or those whose economies were relatively stagnant did not produce more terrorists. When the analysis was restricted to suicide-attacks, there was a statistically significant pattern—but in the opposite direction. Citizens of the poorest countries were the least likely to commit a suicide-attack. The nationalities of all foreign insurgents captured in Iraq between April and October 2005 also produced no evidence that poorer countries produced more insurgents. If anything, there was weak evidence the other way.[/B][/QUOTE] [url]http://www.henryjacksonsociety.org/cms/harriercollectionitems/Islamist+Terrorism+2011+Preview.pdf[/url] [Biased: Neoconservative foreign policy think-tank] [QUOTE]Education and employment There is little correlation between terrorist activity, low educational achievement and employment status. • Where known, 42% of IROs were perpetrated by individuals either in employment (33%, n=45) or full-time further or higher education (9%, n=13) at the date of charge or attack. • 36% of IROs were perpetrated by individuals who were unemployed at the date of charge or attack. • Where known, the most common level of education achieved at the time of the IRO (15%) was study at some point for a higher-education qualification. • Including graduates and postgraduates, a minimum of 30% (n=21) of those who committed IROs had at some point attended university or a higher education institute. [/QUOTE] [editline]11th April 2016[/editline] [IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MhJZC_GjH38/U_KFfvkkuAI/AAAAAAAAADs/wcsgYEm4C9o/s1600/graph.png[/IMG] As a European comparison: Better economic conditions lead to more support for 'extremist' (or whoever the most far-right party is) parties.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50112958]Okay, I don't entirely agree, but why are we getting these retrograde attitudes in the west, in countries with free, universal education, often from people who have lived in the UK for their entire life? If education is the answer, then how much is needed? These countries aren't going to be as educated as the UK for decades. [editline]11th April 2016[/editline] [url]http://www.economist.com/node/17730424[/url] To preface this: I'm completely aware of the differences between Jihadism (violent political Islam), Islamism (political Islam) and conservative/fundamentalist Islam. But I think this still addresses the same problems: Many terrorists are highly educated. In fact, disproportionately. [url]http://www.henryjacksonsociety.org/cms/harriercollectionitems/Islamist+Terrorism+2011+Preview.pdf[/url] [Biased: Neoconservative foreign policy think-tank][/QUOTE] I understand what you mean, and yes, educated people can still be complete moronic pricks. When i speak of education, i mean exposure to alternate cultures, so in this case, exposure to the west. If a foreign family were to move to the US, within a generation or two, they would have integrated into our culture. Quoting from the economist article you posted (which was a good read btw) [QUOTE] There are many reasons to promote economic development in poor countries but the elimination of terror is not a good one. The research on terrorists' national origins suggested that countries which give their citizens fewer civil and political rights tend to produce more terrorists. Politics, not economics, is likely to be a more fruitful weapon in the fight against terror[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=da space core;50113103]I understand what you mean, and yes, educated people can still be complete moronic pricks. When i speak of education, i mean exposure to alternate cultures, so in this case, exposure to the west. If a foreign family were to move to the US, within a generation or two, they would have integrated into our culture. Quoting from the economist article you posted (which was a good read btw)[/QUOTE] I can't actually find any data on differences in Muslim opinion between generations, and only can find anecdotes, so I can't actually say anything for sure on changes on Muslim integration. However, I think it is relevant to point out that a large number of terrorists (if not basically all) are second generation immigrants to the UK or other western countries. You could, of course, feasibly argue that these are an exception and that they don't measure general Muslim opinion, which would be correct, but it is still a bad sign for our hope for integration within a few generations.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50113152]I can't actually find any data on differences in Muslim opinion between generations, and only can find anecdotes, so I can't actually say anything for sure on changes on Muslim integration. However, I think it is relevant to point out that a large number of terrorists (if not basically all) are second generation immigrants to the UK or other western countries. You could, of course, feasibly argue that these are an exception and that they don't measure general Muslim opinion, which would be correct, but it is still a bad sign for our hope for integration within a few generations.[/QUOTE] Thats sort of how integration works in general. Family moves abroad, try to put cultural customs on their kids (can be anything from clothing to language, etc) but kids want to be part of the country they grew up in, which sometimes causes some tension with parents. Its just how immigration works in general.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50112958]Okay, I don't entirely agree, but why are we getting these retrograde attitudes in the west, in countries with free, universal education, often from people who have lived in the UK for their entire life? If education is the answer, then how much is needed? These countries aren't going to be as educated as the UK for decades. [editline]11th April 2016[/editline] [url]http://www.economist.com/node/17730424[/url] To preface this: I'm completely aware of the differences between Jihadism (violent political Islam), Islamism (political Islam) and conservative/fundamentalist Islam. But I think this still addresses the same problems: Many terrorists are highly educated. In fact, disproportionately. [url]http://www.henryjacksonsociety.org/cms/harriercollectionitems/Islamist+Terrorism+2011+Preview.pdf[/url] [Biased: Neoconservative foreign policy think-tank] [/quote] Very interesting post. That Sayyid Qutb guy was pretty well educated and secular and decided to go nuts about terrorism. There was a quote I read (a counter quote to the famous "treat people like slaves and await revolution) it was something like "treat people as slaves and they'll know their place, treat people as equals and expect revolution" the author used it while discussing "the conquered people" and other slave groups who rarely revolted despite their awful treatment. (the book wasnt advocating slavery by any means, far from it infact) Or maybe the more educated/well treated someone is the more seriously they react to perceived injustice. Maybe its hope. You give someone hope they can succeed and achieve and when they get nowhere/find themself in the same shitty situation they decide to get all extreme about stuff. Or perhaps its just a coincidence and theres some other factors causing an increase in both. Hope theres more studies of this nature. [editline]11th April 2016[/editline] [quote] [IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MhJZC_GjH38/U_KFfvkkuAI/AAAAAAAAADs/wcsgYEm4C9o/s1600/graph.png[/IMG] As a European comparison: Better economic conditions lead to more support for 'extremist' (or whoever the most far-right party is) parties.[/QUOTE] Also intriguing I thought it was the other way round (looking at examples in greece, ukraine and nazi germany) What would someone have to do for a job to study this kinda thing? cool post
Asked for some data on intergenerational differences/integration, and I got some: [url]http://anonymousmugwump.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/rejecting-narratives-data-islam-and.html[/url] (footnote 2): [QUOTE][2] Given that this is a post about Islam, I wont bore the readers of my footnotes with what I hope they already know about the economic benefits of increased immigration. There is however some literature that addresses how well Muslims integrate into Western culture. There is a lot of polling to suggest, for example, that British Muslims have abhorrent views when it comes to homosexuality and free speech (see here for an aggregate of poll results). As I write later in this post, we shouldn't rob these individual of agency by saying that Islam is the cause. We should hold them accountable for their views (and fortunately, in many areas we see a divide which shows how there is no necessary connection). But it’s also worth somewhat downplaying the ‘creeping Sharia’ or ‘Muslims are going to change the character of our nation’ line of argument (not only because of the dubious demographic surrounding the issue). This line of argument is not entirely without merit. Bisin et al (2007) find that Muslim immigrants integrate at a slower pace than non-Muslim immigration: [IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9plsqA3rqqY/VKKrZP1J5WI/AAAAAAAAAFI/mOocwXYUcp8/s1600/footnote2.png[/IMG] Bisin et al’s study however, has not been replicated indicating that there was some kind of error (Arai et al (2011)). Bisin et al (2011) however accounted for the bad results and said that their results could be replicated, although somewhat weaker that the graph above. Inglehart and Norris (2012), however, find more optimistic results. Given Bisin et al’s weak results, the lack of replication it is worth focusing on Inglehart and Norris’ more robust findings: [IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GG7x1xSddqM/VKKrZcvMF-I/AAAAAAAAAFU/aZ_8644M66k/s1600/footnote2b.png[/IMG] '...the analysis demonstrates that the basic values of Muslims living in Western societies fall roughly half‐way between the dominant values prevailing within their countries of destination and origin. This suggests that migrant populations living in Rotterdam, Bradford and Berlin are in the process of adapting to Western cultures, while at the same time continuing to reflect the values learnt through primary socialization in their original countries of origin... n the long‐term, the basic cultural values of migrants appear to change in conformity with the predominant culture of each society.' [IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UTYfK1fOUuk/VKKrZ1hgUYI/AAAAAAAAAFg/u0eEGyoCFyQ/s1600/footnote2c.png[/IMG] '... although Western Muslims are consistently located between Islamic and Western societies, there is no evidence that generational change, by itself, will transform the situation so that the cultural differences between Muslim migrants and Western publics will disappear: younger Westerners are adopting modern values even more swiftly than their Muslim peers.' Thanks to Ben Southwood for directing me toward these studies. I’m sure people can cherry pick Bisin et al or Inglehart and Norris – but at least then people aren’t making empirical claims without any empirical research. I have explained why I think the latter study is more rigorous but am open to saying the literature is not, at this point, conclusive. One indication however is to look again at these graphs and see that religiosity is declining. This is significant because once you account for religiosity, many of the socially conservative views of Muslims can be explained away (Lewis and Kashyap, 2013). See also these results from the U.S where Muslims are far more integrated.[/QUOTE]
Of course they do, they're religious and most religious people hold fucking awful views. What I don't get it why islam gets this special protection in that you're not allowed to criticise it ever otherwise you're an "islamophobe", while criticism of conservative christian views is fine. Really both of these religions should come under criticism, people need to stop giving special protection to islam
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;50113666]Of course they do, they're religious and most religious people hold fucking awful views. What I don't get it why islam gets this special protection in that you're not allowed to criticise it ever otherwise you're an "islamophobe", while criticism of conservative christian views is fine. Really both of these religions should come under criticism, people need to stop giving special protection to islam[/QUOTE] Honestly, while it's true that you often get people yelling "Islamophobia", I don't think it's true that Islam isn't being discussed and criticized. Like, at all.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;50113666]Of course they do, they're religious and most religious people hold fucking awful views. What I don't get it why islam gets this special protection in that you're not allowed to criticise it ever otherwise you're an "islamophobe", while criticism of conservative christian views is fine. Really both of these religions should come under criticism, people need to stop giving special protection to islam[/QUOTE] Since when? Generally when the term "Islamophobe" gets thrown around it's because threads like these are often used as springboards for truly terrible posts. I dislike Islam just as much as I dislike any organized religion, and there are many valid criticisms to be leveled against it but Islam is by-and-large the most common target when it comes to spouting xenophobia and fearmongering. The criticism that Islam is a regressive and sexist belief system is valid. But the idea that Islam threatens Western civilization is unfounded and absurd.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;50113793]Honestly, while it's true that you often get people yelling "Islamophobia", I don't think it's true that Islam isn't being discussed and criticized. Like, at all.[/QUOTE] Islam is legitimately discussed all the damn time by people who actually have some idea what they're talking about. That isn't what's taking place on this forum, or most of the Internet in general. A lot of the shit people call out for Islamophobia tends to be either gross generalisations about all Muslims being murder-rapist-bombers in waiting or some weird obsession with trying to pin all ills in the western world on Muslims. Needless fearmongering by groups trying to incite hatred between the native population and the "foreign invaders" (who are probably 2nd/ 3rd gen immigrants in most cases lmao) to push some idea that the EU is failing.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;50113947]Islam is legitimately discussed all the damn time by people who actually have some idea what they're talking about. That isn't what's taking place on this forum, or most of the Internet in general. A lot of the shit people call out for Islamophobia tends to be either gross generalisations about all Muslims being murder-rapist-bombers in waiting or some weird obsession with trying to pin all ills in the western world on Muslims. Needless fearmongering by groups trying to incite hatred between the native population and the "foreign invaders" (who are probably 2nd/ 3rd gen immigrants in most cases lmao) to push some idea that the EU is failing.[/QUOTE] A few years ago that hatred was directed toward bulgarians and romanians. The "racist vans" incident with resulted in 1 person going back to romania. Then before that it was hatred vs the poles. Then before that hatred vs indians. In a decade or so it'll be the chinese or something. Flavour of the month scapegoating.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;50113966]A few years ago that hatred was directed toward bulgarians and romanians. The "racist vans" incident with resulted in 1 person going back to romania. Then before that it was hatred vs the poles. Then before that hatred vs indians. In a decade or so it'll be the chinese or something. Flavour of the month scapegoating.[/QUOTE] We currently seem to be at "nondescript brown people a.k.a the muzzies" hatred. Most of the shitlords making noise about Islam can't tell the difference between a Sikh and a sink, let alone a Sikh and an actual Muslim.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;50114010]We currently seem to be at "nondescript brown people a.k.a the muzzies" hatred. Most of the shitlords making noise about Islam can't tell the difference between a Sikh and a sink, let alone a Sikh and an actual Muslim.[/QUOTE] Who are the shitlords in this thread?
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50114029]Who are the shitlords in this thread?[/QUOTE] Good lord, that perked your ears up didn't it? I'm not talking about this thread, that much really should be obvious unless you're just looking for Internet fights by this point.
[QUOTE=UnknownDude;50110663]1000 is a ridicilously small sample size. The UK has almost 1.6 million muslims. I don't think they even bothered to spread out their sample size either. My guess is they just talked to 1000 muslims in a few close-knit communities in like 2 or 3 towns max.[/QUOTE] No it literally isn't. 1000 is the golden rule of stats. This section needs to be renamed to "1000 is good sample size"
[QUOTE=UnknownDude;50110663]1000 is a ridicilously small sample size. The UK has almost 1.6 million muslims. I don't think they even bothered to spread out their sample size either. My guess is they just talked to 1000 muslims in a few close-knit communities in like 2 or 3 towns max.[/QUOTE] comments like this are so annoying, sample sizes are made on a third of that size for your favourite political polls and people will go wild over them. it isn't unusual for over half of muslims to believe that homosexuality is immoral, and you don't know those muslims because they don't talk to you and i. the circles that the religious converse in tend to be very small and concentrated.
funny the mental gymnastics going on in this thread by people who think that the world is a peaceful and loving place
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50110628]Those aren't the best statistics.[/QUOTE] What do you expect from people who want to behead those who think differently from them?
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