New Polling of British Muslims Shows 52% Think Homosexuality Should Be Illegal, 23% Want Sharia
116 replies, posted
[QUOTE=hexpunK;50113947]Islam is legitimately discussed all the damn time by people who actually have some idea what they're talking about.
That isn't what's taking place on this forum, or most of the Internet in general. [/QUOTE]
Where is it being discussed properly?
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;50111675]Cept muslims aren't telling you to not drink alcohol. They're not here to displace you. You shouldn't feel threatened. You can carry on eating pork, drinking beer, going to church on a sunday and celebrating christmas.
Agreed muslims should follow the same rules as all of us, which they do. I don't think your concerns are realistic tbh.
Anyone who tried to force their religion onto others is in the wrong. Be it a muslim radical who wants you to be a muslim or a christian extremist who wants to force his/her religion on others or a militant atheist who [b]tells[/b] people they're stupid and wrong and atheism is the only way to go.[/QUOTE]
You know, personally, I couldn't just carry on with certain things like normal, especially if there are Muslims around. General portrayal of women everywhere in adverts alone, even what we consider absolutely fine (having hair open for example), not to mention all the drinking and drugs and sex (not sure if prohibited) and in a way, by rejecting alcohol for example, they put themselves in a superior stance over us. We just like alcohol, choose to consume it, and accept the costs to society that alcohol causes.
So all that, and more, I feel is disrespectful towards them and creates even more social conflict. Not only are we often bothered by non-Muslim people's doings, like our neighbors or co-workers and we can tolerate to an extent, but adding Islam to the mix just makes everything only that much more awkward and shit.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;50117973]You know, personally, I couldn't just carry on with certain things like normal, especially if there are Muslims around. General portrayal of women everywhere in adverts alone, even what we consider absolutely fine (having hair open for example), not to mention all the drinking and drugs and sex (not sure if prohibited) and in a way, by rejecting alcohol for example, they put themselves in a superior stance over us. We just like alcohol, choose to consume it, and accept the costs to society that alcohol causes.
So all that, and more, I feel is disrespectful towards them and creates even more social conflict. Not only are we often bothered by non-Muslim people's doings, like our neighbors or co-workers and we can tolerate to an extent, but adding Islam to the mix just makes everything only that much more awkward and shit.[/QUOTE]
And this is where I say this is on them to integrate into our society. If you move to another country, it is more than fine to bring your cultural values with you (as long as they hurt no one of course) but you must also at the very least accept the culture that you moved into
[QUOTE=da space core;50118230]And this is where I say this is on them to integrate into our society. If you move to another country, it is more than fine to bring your cultural values with you (as long as they hurt no one of course) but you must also at the very least accept the culture that you moved into[/QUOTE]
Well yeah, if only the Muslims (and others) accepted and agreed that their way of life is equally valuable, and that all different cultures and religions must be tolerated and so on, yet they must not ever overlap, supersede, or may God forbid, come in conflict with each other.
Now that sounds nice, like a utopia.. only waiting to explode.
[url]https://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2016/04/12/so-what-do-british-muslims-really-think/[/url]
Good on the data:
[QUOTE]Muslims do not appear to see Britain as a nation in thrall to Islamophobia. [B]Seventy-three per cent thought that religuious harassment of Muslims was not a problem, 82% had not faced harassment in the past 2 years; and of the 17% who had, more than three-quarters reported it as verbal abuse. [/B]More Muslims (40%) think anti-Muslim prejudice has grown in the last five years than think it has decreased (14%). But the comparable figures for the general public are 61% and 7% respectively. Muslims, in other words, actually seem less concerned about the growth of anti-Muslim prejudice than the public at large.
[B]...Far fewer Muslims could ‘understand why a British Muslim like Mohammed Emwazi would be attracted to radicalism’ than could members of the general public (13% compared to 27%). The Daily Express, under the headline ‘”Astonishing” two in three British Muslims would not give terror tip-offs’, the Times and many other newspapers, in Britain and abroad,noted that only one in three Muslims would report to the police someone close who might be getting involved in terrorism (the actual figure is 34%). But what the reports failed to note was that a lower proportion of the public at large (30%) would contact the police given the same circumstances. This is, in other words, not a Muslim problem, but a general reluctance to shop friends to the police, however heinous their potential crime.[/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]British Muslims seem more socially conservative than Muslims in some other Western countries. An Ifop poll of French Muslims and a Pew poll of US Muslims, for instance, both show more liberal views.
...
According to the Pew poll, US Muslims are much more liberals about homosexuality than co-religionists in Europe – 39% thought homosexuality acceptable.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]...As I have observed many times, the views of today’s British Muslims are different from those of previous generations. [B]The first generation of Muslims to this country were religious, but wore their faith lightly. Many men drank alcohol. Few women wore a hijab, let alone a burqa or niqab. Most visited the mosque only occasionally, when the ‘Friday feeling’ took them. Islam was not, in their eyes, an all-encompassing philosophy.[/B] Their faith expressed for them a relationship with God, not a sacrosanct public identity.
[B]The second generation of Britons with a Muslim background – my generation – was primarily secular. Religious organizations were barely visible. The organizations that bound together Asian communities (and we thought of ourselves as ‘Asian’ or ‘black’, not ‘Muslim’) were primarily secular, often political; the Asian Youth Movements, for instance, or the Indian Workers Association.[/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][B]Much of the debate around the poll, and Phillips’ own commentary, has confused three issues: social conservatism, integration and jihadism.
[/B]
We should be rightly concerned with the degree of illiberal social attitudes within Muslim communities, especially as it was very different just a generation ago. We should not simply shrug our shoulders and say ‘That’s what happens in a plural society’. We should combat illiberal attitudes, from whichever group, and support those struggling for a progressive future, including within Muslim communities. Too often liberals betray such progressives in the name of ‘tolerance’ or ‘pluralism’. But holding illiberal views is not necessarily the same as failing to integrate – and this poll does not reveal a link between the two.
...
[B]Thirdly, there is the problem of jihadism, and of a section of Muslims being drawn toward Islamist views. As I have noted before, most studies show that Muslims are rarely drawn to jihadist groups because they already hold extremist religious views; rather it is their involvement in jihadism that leads them to accept religious extremism as a justification for their acts.[/B] As the former CIA operation officer, now an academic and counter-terrorism consultant to the US and other governments, Marc Sageman, has put it, ‘At the time they joined jihad terrorists were not very religious. They only became religious once they joined the jihad.’ That is why we need to rethink our ideas about radicalisation and how to combat it.
Illiberalism, integration and jihadism are all urgent issues that need tackling. But we will not tackle any of them by drawing facile links between them.[/QUOTE]
Final paragraph important: Religious conservatism and jihadism are not the same. However, I think he omits the fact that religious conservatism feeds into the ideology that surrounds terrorism, so tackling very conservative Islam will still help reduce terror attacks by harming theological support base for the ideology that surrounds it.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50120112][URL]https://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2016/04/12/so-what-do-british-muslims-really-think/[/URL]
Good on the data:
Final paragraph important: Religious conservatism and jihadism are not the same. However, I think he omits the fact that religious conservatism feeds into the ideology that surrounds terrorism, so tackling very conservative Islam will still help reduce terror attacks by harming theological support base for the ideology that surrounds it.[/QUOTE]
Do you know where he's getting the data for the rate at which the general population would report known terrorist activity? The poll being quoted about muslims specifically says that it only included muslims. So it has to be something else, and he doesn't cite the number at all.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50120765]Do you know where he's getting the data for the rate at which the general population would report known terrorist activity? The poll being quoted about muslims specifically says that it only included muslims. So it has to be something else, and he doesn't cite the number at all.[/QUOTE]
There was a control group which had the figure of 30%. That is assuming this article ([url]http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/12/what-do-muslims-think-skewed-poll-wont-tell-us[/url]) isn't lying, but there was a control group in the survey.
[QUOTE=Guardian218;50111877]I find it hilarious how some people on here are so determined to defend Muslims with these views no matter what wrongs they do as if they'll get pat on the backs for being so "Progressive".
I remember with the Airport bombing last month that rather than try and blame the cause of the bombing, users on here were just consistently defending Islam as if it is some "Religion of Peace". Some of you really need to get your heads out of the clouds :v:
Also I'm fully aware that some Christians share the same types of views and they are just as bad but can we not criticise Islam for having members who share the same views as well? Or is it exempt from any criticism?[/QUOTE]
Jesus fucking christ, maybe it's because some of us don't want people to generalize (something you're doing right now) a negative thing about a group of people and thus hate them for it, because you know as well as I do that's all that's going to really come from this poll.
But whatever, I guess the only reason we do this is because we want to feel good about ourselves.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50120907]There was a control group which had the figure of 30%. That is assuming this article ([URL]http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/12/what-do-muslims-think-skewed-poll-wont-tell-us[/URL]) isn't lying, but there was a control group in the survey.[/QUOTE]
Oh, so it's not a valid poll result then... it seems pretty deceptive to use a control group as if it were a scientific poll.
Even the other poll quoted by that guardian article says that a full quarter of British muslims believe that violence against people who publish images of the prophet Muhammad can be justified. So it seems to me that this cites study contradicts with its own results. A quarter feel that violence can be justified, half sympathize with Imams who teach that violence against the west can be justified, but 94% would report someone who was planning to commit an act of violence. That doesn't even make sense. It also doesn't cite any methodology.
I don't really get what this poll or other polls like it are supposed to contribute to anything, you can't draw any conclusions from it and it does not have any scientific value on it's own and probably not even when combined with any actual study.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;50123774]I don't really get what this poll or other polls like it are supposed to contribute to anything, you can't draw any conclusions from it and it does not have any scientific value on it's own and probably not even when combined with any actual study.[/QUOTE]
Why not? We draw conclusions from all kinds of polling. Sorry that you don't like the results.
[editline]13th April 2016[/editline]
Of course there are contradictory results. Because humans aren't rational and consistent.
Its not that I don't like the results I just don't see the academic purpose of the poll
[editline]13th April 2016[/editline]
I'm not saying the poll is bad or shouldnt have been made I'm just not sure what it's implications are
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;50111369]Starpluck said it best above where he demonstrated muslims aren't much different from Christians in terms of beliefs[/QUOTE]
Please stop pretending that Christianity is just as bad as Islam. Christianity has been civilized through centuries of difficulty. Islam plainly has not. It is still just as hopelessly mired in mindless, bloody tribalism as the medieval church was. And it is practically a handbook on theocratic fascism.
If you tell Muslims that they cant help it, that Islam is fine because it is just as bad, youre not giving them a chance.
Christianity has been far from "civilized" until gradual secularism during the last 100 years or so
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;50123914]Christianity has been far from "civilized" until gradual secularism during the last 100 years or so[/QUOTE]
I am baffled
Id encourage you to read that again
And the renaissance started about 600 years ago, which is largely regarded as the gradual awakening of the christian nations from dogmatic thinking. Culminating in the religious freedoms we have today, the freedom from religion being one of them.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50121392]Jesus fucking christ, maybe it's because some of us don't want people to generalize (something you're doing right now) a negative thing about a group of people and thus hate them for it, because you know as well as I do that's all that's going to really come from this poll.
But whatever, I guess the only reason we do this is because we want to feel good about ourselves.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=hexpunK;50113947]Islam is legitimately discussed all the damn time by people who actually have some idea what they're talking about.
That isn't what's taking place on this forum, or most of the Internet in general. A lot of the shit people call out for Islamophobia tends to be either gross generalisations about all Muslims being murder-rapist-bombers in waiting or some weird obsession with trying to pin all ills in the western world on Muslims. Needless fearmongering by groups trying to incite hatred between the native population and the "foreign invaders" (who are probably 2nd/ 3rd gen immigrants in most cases lmao) to push some idea that the EU is failing.[/QUOTE]
This is what's going on pretty much. The amount of racism and ignorance in this thread is astounding. And don't even try to argue that "islam isnt a race" because you're lumping all of these people into this one stupid generalization and are pretty much giving them bs. Muslims = bombings? Holy fucking shit how fucking stupid do you have to be to think of this?
You guys know what? If islam didn't exist in the middle east these stupid killings and shit would still occur. It doesn't matter what religion it is. Uneducated and deranged people are easily manipulated by this kind of shit that's a given no matter which part of the world you're in. There's brainwashing and all that shit. And mind you, more muslims die by the hands of terrorists in the middle east than any western country's people. For fuck's sake wrap your heads around this and stop giving in to pointless hatred.
And to think that all this shit started from a simple poll regarding the opinion of muslims on homosexuality. No shit sherlock people following abrahamic religions are against homosexuality and no one's pretending that it's okay.
[url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1514293[/url]
get on this fucking thread
i dont get why a muslim person has to do something like this before being accepted by society like wtf
Are you going to reply to any of the posts actually in this thread or just accuse us all of being racists?
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50123966]Are you going to reply to any of the posts actually in this thread or just accuse us all of being racists?[/QUOTE]
oh maybe you should try........... not being racist?????
get off your fucking high horse
you do know that you're not going to contribute to society by propagating hate
you're not gonna convince muslims to leave their religion by propagating hate
[QUOTE=Rainboo;50123979]oh maybe you should try........... not being racist?????
get off your fucking high horse[/QUOTE]
Great post.
People like you are why the word 'racist' is loosing all meaning. You're basically calling us stupid, that we cant separate systemic cultural and societal issues from delusions of 'race'.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;50123921]I am baffled
Id encourage you to read that again
And the renaissance started about 600 years ago, which is largely regarded as the gradual awakening of the christian nations from dogmatic thinking. Culminating in the religious freedoms we have today, the freedom from religion being one of them.[/QUOTE]
The inquisition and witch hunts continued way after the renaissance and violence rooted in things like christian homophobia and racism have gone on even longer, the biggest civilizing of christianity has happened during postchristianity
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;50123995]The inquisition and witch hunts continued way after the renaissance and violence rooted in things like christian homophobia and racism have gone on even longer, the biggest civilizing of christianity has happened during postchristianity[/QUOTE]
Yes exactly, as you say, and as i say. The road was long and arduous.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;50123986]People like you are why the word 'racist' is loosing all meaning. You're basically calling us stupid, that we cant separate systemic cultural and societal issues from delusions of 'race'.[/QUOTE]
losing all meaning you say? "delusions of 'race"? holy shit you are a big idiot
when every single day these people struggle getting jobs because of profiling
when in every discussion on the internet they get associated to bombings and terrorist activities
when these people get subjected to xenophobic slurs for their religion
when every single time islam is mentioned there's absolutely pointless fearmongering
when people unironically think that islam is somehow creeping over the west
tell me. what do you aim to achieve by saying all that shit? WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL THAT ACHIEVE?
You do know that people here are already aware that islam has its share of anachronistic, sexist and regressive beliefs. All organized religions have their fair share of those. That's undeniable. But terrorism? wtf? That's a result of the lack of proper education, the lack of decent livelihood, brainwashing, and other such societal issues. Don't pretend that it's all because of islam. Islam is just being used as a tool for that and another religion could as easily be a substitute for it. No one is pretending that nothing's wrong with islam but muslims do not deserve all the prejudice and hate that they get because of it.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;50123986]Great post.
People like you are why the word 'racist' is loosing all meaning. You're basically calling us stupid, that we cant separate systemic cultural and societal issues from delusions of 'race'.[/QUOTE]
Because you are arguing from the stand point that Islam is a big issue when in reality it's poverty, corruption, lack of education and violence that are the real issues and you are not adressing those issues by blaming them on muslims nor would you solve them by getting rid of islam
[editline]13th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;50124003]Yes exactly, as you say, and as i say. The road was long and arduous.[/QUOTE]
But it was not a fight against christianity that made it better, it was the rise of democracy, litteracy, education and science that made society slowly move away from christian values and the same has to happen in muslim countries. Muslims who grow up in the western world are generally no worse than Christians who do so.
[QUOTE=Rainboo;50124008]losing all meaning you say? "delusions of 'race"? holy shit you are a big idiot
when every single day these people struggle getting jobs because of profiling
when in every discussion on the internet they get associated to bombings and terrorist activities
when these people get subjected to xenophobic slurs for their religion
when every single time islam is mentioned there's absolutely pointless fearmongering
when people unironically think that islam is somehow creeping over the west
tell me. what do you aim to achieve by saying all that shit? WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL THAT ACHIEVE?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;50124009]Because you are arguing from the stand point that Islam is a big issue when in reality it's poverty, corruption, lack of education and violence that are the real issues and you are not adressing those issues by blaming them on muslims nor would you solve them by getting rid of islam[/QUOTE]
Yes, yes. Bigot, racist, xenophobe, feamongerer, etc etc etc. And what you amazing muppets are consistently refusing or failing to pick up. Is that Islam does [B]NOTHING[/B] To alleviate the massive systemic and societal issues that muslims are facing.
Islam is in direct opposition to the individualistic merits that western society demands, on the workforce as well as in social relationships. It is in direct opposition to western values, like freedom of expression, freedom of thought, individual and especially women's liberties.
This draws a cleft between the eastern muslim person and the western person. In fact, [B]NOT[/B] because the western person is a Bigot, racist, xenophobe, feamongerer, etc etc etc, but because there is absolutely nothing that the two have in common. Imagine that. Either of these ideologies unreformed will exclude the existence of the other, one of them will have to go. I vouch that it will be the system responsible for all the wondrous prosperity that you and i enjoy, that gets to prevail.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;50124037]Yes, yes. Bigot, racist, xenophobe, feamongerer, etc etc etc. And what you amazing muppets are consistently refusing or failing to pick up. Is that Islam does [B]NOTHING[/B] To alleviate the massive systemic and societal issues that muslims are facing.
Islam is in direct opposition to the individualistic merits that western society demands, on the workforce as well as in social relationships. It is in direct opposition to western values, like freedom of expression, freedom of thought, individual and especially women's liberties.
This draws a cleft between the eastern muslim person and the western person. In fact, [B]NOT[/B] because the western person is a Bigot, racist, xenophobe, feamongerer, etc etc etc, but because there is absolutely nothing that the two have in common. Imagine that. Either of these ideologies unreformed will exclude the existence of the other, one of them will have to go. I vouch that it will be the system responsible for all the wondrous prosperity that you and i enjoy, that gets to prevail.[/QUOTE]
No one is arguing that islam does not need reforms. I in fact agree with that sentiment, as you cannot realistically expect people to detach themselves from the organized religion they were born into so easily. But what I am saying is that you shouldn't be blind to the fact that muslims, even those who do properly integrate into western society are subjected to xenophobia due to the fact that there is fearmongering about islam everywhere and the idiotic association of islam to terrorist activities. I believe that the west must not cater to the regressive and sexist ideals of islam, but I don't think that hate is the solution for that.
[QUOTE=Guardian218;50111877]I find it hilarious how some people on here are so determined to defend Muslims with these views no matter what wrongs they do as if they'll get pat on the backs for being so "Progressive".
I remember with the Airport bombing last month that rather than try and blame the cause of the bombing, users on here were just consistently defending Islam as if it is some "Religion of Peace". Some of you really need to get your heads out of the clouds :v:
[/QUOTE]
It's because the majority of people agree with sentiments like this that I find the need to post shit
You are not going to achieve the social progress in muslim countries you want by attacking their identity. I'll be happy the day there are no muslims, christians or atheists and we all just agree on the nature we live in and focus on reality but if you want global progress you need to think about people and society in context. Its not us and them but that mentality is very obvious when islam is constantly brought up as a scapegoat for all the issues in the world.
I get that Muslims face alot of abuse from people who are totally oblivious to the nuance of the issue. Those people are called Assholes. They are the ghosts of monkey-tribalism that still lurk at the edges of our modern societies.
That is not [B]ME[/B]. I wish we could all just fucking get along. I want to help Muslims so that they wont be dragging around their Parents, Grandparents and assorted ancestors baggage, chained around their ankles in the shape of nonsensical, tribalistic feuds, oppressive traditions and religious beliefs.
But im not going to coddle them from the utterly regressive values they are bringing from their homelands. Misogyny, Family-honor murders, Supression of freedom have [B]NO[/B] place in Europe. They have no Right to these things, and thus in some ways, they have no right to practise Islam as stated in the Koran. Like:
[I]Men are managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made the one superior to the other. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 329)[/I]
And,
[I]" I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. It is not ye who slew them; it was God."
Surah 8:13-17.[/I]
And no, the Bible isn't better, before i hear that argument for the nine-thousandth time.
[editline]13th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rainboo;50124054]even those who do properly integrate into western society are subjected to xenophobia due to the fact that there is fearmongering about islam everywhere and the idiotic association of islam to terrorist activities.[/QUOTE]
Well im sorry but you don't see many Mahayana Buddhist Extremists blowing themselves up in public spaces. And those of them in Tibet are facing [B]UTTER [/B]oppression under Chinese imperialism. That's because Mahayana doctrine teaches utter respect and reverence for all living things. Islam's doctrine actively encourages martyrdom, so surprise surprise, you get a lot of Islamic martyrs. Hence why Islam sucks.
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