Plan C on Obamacare "Repeal now, replace later" Collapses
106 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Luni;52483808]Actually the two most recent senators defected because it wasn't extreme enough. That's the real reason the GOP can't get its shit together - it's split down the middle between the moderates who think the replacement bill goes too far and the hardliners who think it needs to go farther.[/QUOTE]
You know what bothers me extra about this? The GOP will most likely try to cram more hard-right things in the bill to appease those two, rather than budge and go a bit left with the bill to try and get a handful of democrats.
Like maybe it's just the way that I think about it, but it's a very simple game of probabilities. You're more likely to convince a handful of democrats to vote yes on the bill by compromising on a few points than you are to convince the handful of republicans who defected. Easier to get ~10% of one opposing group to budge than to convince 100% of another.
[QUOTE=Plattack;52483990]You know what bothers me extra about this? The GOP will most likely try to cram more hard-right things in the bill to appease those two, rather than budge and go a bit left with the bill to try and get a handful of democrats.
Like maybe it's just the way that I think about it, but it's a very simple game of probabilities. You're more likely to convince a handful of democrats to vote yes on the bill by compromising on a few points than you are to convince the handful of republicans who defected. Easier to get ~10% of one opposing group to budge than to convince 100% of another.[/QUOTE]
Your math is a little off. Republicans only need the remaining 6% of their own group to pass the bill, while in the other direction they would need 8% of the Democratic minority -- three votes. This doesn't account for the terrible improbability of compromise on this issue, though. Neither side would be satisfied by downgrading to "ACA-Lite." The argument is to either expand it or repeal it now.
[QUOTE=Cyan_Husky;52483805]Single payer?[/QUOTE]
"You fools! You've just installed a [I]socialist healthcare program![/I]"
"Yeah... But hey, at least we got rid of that [I]evil[/I] Obamacare!"
Trump will just sabotage everyone's healthcare.
[QUOTE=Chonch;52484144]Your math is a little off. Republicans only need the remaining 6% of their own group to pass the bill, while in the other direction they would need 8% of the Democratic minority -- three votes. This doesn't account for the terrible improbability of compromise on this issue, though. Neither side would be satisfied by downgrading to "ACA-Lite." The argument is to either expand it or repeal it now.[/QUOTE]
I don't think his maths is off. I think you're dividing by the wrong number.
There are 4 republicans who are solid "no" votes against the bill. You need (please excuse my lack of knowledge here) 3 of those to get the bill through the senate, so you have to convince 75% of the hardline republicans.
On the other hand, bringing 3 democrats on board means convincing just over 6% of democrats that the bill is worth voting for. I guess these would be the most centrist democrats.
[editline]blah[/editline]
This is ignoring loss of republicans due to a slight left shift in policy, etc etc. but his math seemed sound.
[QUOTE=Untouch;52483612]oh well, onwards to plan D![/QUOTE]
Plan A aborted
Plan B blown
Plan C collapses
Plan D detonates
Plan E explodes
Plan F fails
Plan G goofs
Plan H haywires
Plan I implodes
Plan J junked
Plan K killed
Plan L leaks
Plan M murdered
Plan N neglected
Plan O obliterated
Plan P paralyzed
Plan Q quits
Plan R restrained
Plan S scrapped
Plan T tanks
Plan U undone
Plan V violated
Plan W whacked
Plan X
Well, I guess you guys are gonna get fucked over sooner or later.
[QUOTE=Murkrow;52486180]Plan A aborted
Plan B blown
Plan C collapses
Plan D detonates
Plan E explodes
Plan F fails
Plan G goofs
Plan H haywires
Plan I implodes
Plan J junked
Plan K killed
Plan L leaks
Plan M murdered
Plan N neglected
Plan O obliterated
Plan P paralyzed
Plan Q quits
Plan R restrained
Plan S scrapped
Plan T tanks
Plan U undone
Plan V violated
Plan W whacked
Plan X
Well, I guess you guys are gonna get fucked over sooner or later.[/QUOTE]
Plan X x-ed
Plan Y gets yiffy and the entire republican party resigns from shame before they can think of Plan Z
Well, if it can't be repealed, then we all get to watch the system collapse.
People here seem to forget that Obamacare is not sustainable. Insurers will continue to pull out of state exchanges across the country, and more and more people will continue to be left without insurance.
The only people who benefit from Obamacare are the people who aren't paying into the system to begin with. People who actually pay for insurance have been dealing with constant premium increases to the point where they cant afford it. And when they can't afford it, the insurer is forced to pull out as there isn't enough money to continue within the Obamacare marketplace.
I will reiterate this simple message over and over again: Obamacare does not work and will inevitablely fail.
[QUOTE=TheManInUrPC;52486249]Well, if it can't be repealed, then we all get to watch the system collapse.
People here seem to forget that Obamacare is not sustainable. Insurers will continue to pull out of state exchanges across the country, and more and more people will continue to be left without insurance.
The only people who benefit from Obamacare are the people who aren't paying into the system to begin with. People who actually pay for insurance have been dealing with constant premium increases to the point where they cant afford it. And when they can't afford it, the insurer is forced to pull out as there isn't enough money to continue within the Obamacare marketplace.
I will reiterate this simple message over and over again: Obamacare does not work and will inevitablely fail.[/QUOTE]
Obamacare isn't the problem.
The market is uncertain as it can possibly be right now. There is no healthcare bill, there is no concrete bills on the horizon period. There is 0 certaintity to work from for the Insurers. You can act like they're just raising the premiums willy nilly, but they have no idea what the atmosphere or even legal structure will be in a year. Do you know how that makes them react? It makes them unwilling to take risks, hence why they're pulling out of markets. They didn't start pulling out of markets en masse until the repeal effort swung in to full gear, and it's hurting the stability of Obamacare.
Yes, Obamacare raised the premiums of healthy americans by what seems to be an unfair amount. But your statement that "Aren't paying into the system to begin with" is a lie. The people who weren't in the market, but now are, due to Pre-existing coverage additions do in fact pay into the market, and were only not in the market before due to legal framework that allowed for the whole sale denial of coverage based on those conditions, this lead to an overall ineffectual healthcare system, that leads people like you to believe you had better coverage before. You didn't. You had cheaper coverage. Not better.
Obamacare isn't sustainable when the framework that supports it is constantly being sabotaged.
[QUOTE=TheManInUrPC;52486249]Well, if it can't be repealed, then we all get to watch the system collapse.
People here seem to forget that Obamacare is not sustainable. Insurers will continue to pull out of state exchanges across the country, and more and more people will continue to be left without insurance.
The only people who benefit from Obamacare are the people who aren't paying into the system to begin with. People who actually pay for insurance have been dealing with constant premium increases to the point where they cant afford it. And when they can't afford it, the insurer is forced to pull out as there isn't enough money to continue within the Obamacare marketplace.
I will reiterate this simple message over and over again: Obamacare does not work and will inevitablely fail.[/QUOTE]
You can thank for that to Republicans as well.
Right now it's for you either gutted ACA or nothing. Choose.
There's also that dumb little option of repairing Obamacare but that seems to comparable to fucking a corpse in GOP's eyes so yeah.
Amazing that we continue to run around in circles with this, all the while single-payer is just sitting there, the most simple and obvious solution in the world, and yet we just can't seem to reach out and grasp it because a significant portion of the population believes higher taxes + lower premiums = slavery for some damn reason.
IMO in this instance instead of blasting the republicans for this "failure" people should be commending the republicans that have refused to vote to obliterate millions of people's healthcare. They very easily could have, but whether they're selfishly doing it because they know they'll never be re-elected or they're doing it out of legitimate concern for their constituents, they're doing the right thing.
It is kinda pathetic that after having so many years to complain about it no republicans had a good replacement drafted but I don't think that fault can be fairly attributed to [i]all[/i] republicans
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52486277]Obamacare isn't the problem.
The market is uncertain as it can possibly be right now. There is no healthcare bill, there is no concrete bills on the horizon period. There is 0 certaintity to work from for the Insurers. You can act like they're just raising the premiums willy nilly, but they have no idea what the atmosphere or even legal structure will be in a year. Do you know how that makes them react? It makes them unwilling to take risks, hence why they're pulling out of markets. They didn't start pulling out of markets en masse until the repeal effort swung in to full gear, and it's hurting the stability of Obamacare.
[/QUOTE]
The reason behind premium increases isn't a 100% sure thing. But people with higher health-risks being brought in certainly contributes to it as insurers need to pay for them one-way or another. And subsidies have shown to be of little to no help (with the exception of Massachusetts it seems ).
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52486277]The people who weren't in the market, but now are, due to Pre-existing coverage additions do in fact pay into the market, and were only not in the market before due to legal framework that allowed for the whole sale denial of coverage based on those conditions
[/QUOTE]
Here are the facts. [URL="https://www.americanactionforum.org/insight/20-million/"]14.5 of the 20 million newly insured people we apart of the Medicaid expansion.[/URL]...
That's one of the largest reasons as to why so many more Americans are insured....and those 14.5 million are not paying in. Again, that's 14.5 out of the 20 million who have been newly insured since 2013.
You can argue that Obamacare has been sabotaged to a certain degree in states that give little to no subsidies, but the fact is there isn't enough money to pay for it all in [URL="https://ballotpedia.org/Obamacare_exchange_enrollment_and_subsidies_by_state"]states that are giving them out[/URL]. (Yea, the data is a bit older, but it still applies to some degree.)
Just take Alabama for example. It provides assistance to 72% of it's people enrolled under Obamacare, but the premiums have still gone up by 58%. They're simply not helping.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52486277]
this lead to an overall ineffectual healthcare system, that leads people like you to believe you had better coverage before. You didn't. You had cheaper coverage. Not better.
[/QUOTE]
The healthcare that I had was suitable to my needs and was far more affordable. That's not the case anymore.
[URL="http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/19/cbo-obamacare-repeal-bill-would-raise-number-of-uninsured-by-27-million-by-2020.html"]CBO states that the newest repeal bill will add 27 million uninsured Americans[/URL]
[QUOTE=TheManInUrPC;52486437]The reason behind premium increases isn't a 100% sure thing. But people with higher health-risks being brought in certainly contributes to it as insurers need to pay for them one-way or another. And subsidies have shown to be of little to no help (with the exception of Massachusetts it seems ).[/QUOTE]
Actually insurance as a business, is fairly understandable. The reasons for the increases are due to a shrinking insurer pool, from the reasons I listed in the last post, and the increases in coverage required to be provided as you alude to here. People who were previously dead in the water in the US health system, aren't, and that costs you money.
[QUOTE]Here are the facts. [URL="https://www.americanactionforum.org/insight/20-million/"]14.5 of the 20 million newly insured people we apart of the Medicaid expansion.[/URL]...
That's one of the largest reasons as to why so many more Americans are insured....and those 14.5 million are not paying in. Again, that's 14.5 out of the 20 million who have been newly insured since 2013.[/QUOTE]
Source on them paying nothing into a system and receiving coverage?
[QUOTE]You can argue that Obamacare has been sabotaged to a certain degree in states that give little to no subsidies, but the fact is there isn't enough money to pay for it all in [URL="https://ballotpedia.org/Obamacare_exchange_enrollment_and_subsidies_by_state"]states that are giving them out[/URL]. (Yea, the data is a bit older, but it still applies to some degree.) [/QUOTE]
This is the result of Obamacare being fucked with by the Republicans. This is literally sabotage.
[QUOTE]Just take Alabama for example. It provides assistance to 72% of it's people enrolled under Obamacare, but the premiums have still gone up by 58%. They're simply not helping. [/QUOTE]
Either the government steps in, and helps force coverages, or your country continues to have the most expensive, and ineffective healthcare system on the globe. Why fight to keep that "honour"?
[QUOTE]The healthcare that I had was suitable to my needs and was far more affordable. That's not the case anymore.[/QUOTE]
No offense, but having sold insurance for a while now, I almost guarantee you don't know what you were actually covered for or what the exclusions you lived under were.
Yes, healthy people will pay a premium. This is what you get when your country [B]refuses[/B] to enact single payer systems or true socialized medicine, and instead insists on a half baked "Insurance for healthcare" system which makes little sense but is still a massive improvement over the previous situation. Yeah, it sucks for you. But it's been life saving for millions of others. But you had to pay for that. So if you're upset, I get it, but your being upset? It was well fucking worth it.
I still find it funny that "Trumpcare" would be nothing
as in
"Trump doesn't care" :v:
Wish they would just give up. Stop trying to fuck us all in the ass, thanks.
[QUOTE=Elspin;52486348]IMO in this instance instead of blasting the republicans for this "failure" people should be commending the republicans that have refused to vote to obliterate millions of people's healthcare. They very easily could have, but whether they're selfishly doing it because they know they'll never be re-elected or they're doing it out of legitimate concern for their constituents, they're doing the right thing.
It is kinda pathetic that after having so many years to complain about it no republicans had a good replacement drafted but I don't think that fault can be fairly attributed to [i]all[/i] republicans[/QUOTE]
But aren't at least a few of them not voting because it doesn't go far enough? I agree its good that the vote didn't pass but if they get their way it'll be a whole worse when it does eventually go through.
[QUOTE=RainbowStalin;52486675]But aren't at least a few of them not voting because it doesn't go far enough? I agree its good that the vote didn't pass but if they get their way it'll be a whole worse when it does eventually go through.[/QUOTE]
Didn't say anywhere that all of the republicans were voting for the right reasons, just that at the very least some of them are going on record against it and whether that's for selfish reasons or not it's a good thing to do
[QUOTE=Shelley Moore Capito]I cannot vote to repeal Obamacare without a replacement plan that addresses my concerns and the needs of West Virginians.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=TheManInUrPC;52486249]
The only people who benefit from Obamacare are the people who aren't paying into the system to begin with. [/QUOTE]
You can go right to hell with that kind of attitude. Before the ACA I couldn't get halfway decent insurance at any rate. Don't roll out your neo-con "welfare queen" bullshit and peg millions of Americans as leeches.
[QUOTE=r0b0tsquid;52485988]I don't think his maths is off. I think you're dividing by the wrong number.
There are 4 republicans who are solid "no" votes against the bill. You need (please excuse my lack of knowledge here) 3 of those to get the bill through the senate, so you have to convince 75% of the hardline republicans.
On the other hand, bringing 3 democrats on board means convincing just over 6% of democrats that the bill is worth voting for. I guess these would be the most centrist democrats.
[editline]blah[/editline]
This is ignoring loss of republicans due to a slight left shift in policy, etc etc. but his math seemed sound.[/QUOTE]
They would only need two more senators. when legislation has a 50/50 split, the VP can step in and make a tie-breaking vote.
[QUOTE=TheManInUrPC;52486249]
The only people who benefit from Obamacare are the people who aren't paying into the system to begin with.[/QUOTE]
The ACA allowed me the privilege of paying $500 a month for private health insurance. Before I couldn't get any coverage because of per-existing conditions. I am benefiting and paying into the system, so you and your generalizations can get fucked.
[QUOTE=Cone;52486234]Plan X x-ed
Plan Y gets yiffy and the entire republican party resigns from shame before they can think of Plan Z[/QUOTE]
Plan Z will involve Senator Mitch McConnell framing Obama for the theft of Queen Elizabeth's Crown, and then later stealing his secret healthcare bill formula to use it to enslave the entire population of America.
However Senator Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden embark in an adventure to retrieve Queen Elizabeth's Crown, and stop McConnell's world domination plan through the power of friendship and rock music.
[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;52488078]$500 a month damn
I wish Obama had just gotten his initial ACA through.[/QUOTE]
I wonder if the ACA would've had a better chance if Obama had been a white President.
Up here in BC, individual health insurance is $0-$75. Drug prescriptions are not covered but there is a provincial prescription plan you can opt into, here, and everything after $500 (at least as of like 7 years ago) is covered for the year. Pretty sad to see Americans pay like 10x as much as me, despite supposedly being the "better" country.
Even sadder is that the American government thinks that's too good for sick people and the poor. America's national character used to be one of arrogant aggression and pride and it was the lovable egomaniac the world knew and loved/loved to hate; now it's a blistering lack of empathy for its fellow citizens and every day the comparisons to a tinpot dictatorship grow stronger.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;52488870]Pretty sad to see Americans pay like 10x as much as me, despite supposedly being the "better" country.[/QUOTE]
In what aspects is the US supposed to be the "better" country? I always saw Canada as a less flawed version of the US.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52488888]In what aspects is the US supposed to be the "better" country? I always saw Canada as a less flawed version of the US.[/QUOTE]
America has long proclaimed itself to be the greatest country in the world, and the "leader of the free world". Neither of those are true anymore.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;52487471]Plan Z will involve Senator Mitch McConnell framing Obama for the theft of Queen Elizabeth's Crown, and then later stealing his secret healthcare bill formula to use it to enslave the entire population of America.
However Senator Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden embark in an adventure to retrieve Queen Elizabeth's Crown, and stop McConnell's world domination plan through the power of friendship and rock music.[/QUOTE]
Only if it's lemon scented.
[QUOTE=Saxon;52487072]The ACA allowed me the privilege of paying $500 a month for private health insurance. Before I couldn't get any coverage because of per-existing conditions. I am benefiting and paying into the system, so you and your generalizations can get fucked.[/QUOTE]
Anecdotes do not trump facts. I said on the previous page that 14.5 million people who are newly insured under Obamacare are on Medicaid. And most of them pay little to nothing.
[QUOTE=Action Frank] You can go right to hell with that kind of attitude. Before the ACA I couldn't get halfway decent insurance at any rate. Don't roll out your neo-con "welfare queen" bullshit and peg millions of Americans as leeches.[/QUOTE]
Well, here is the fact of the matter: There are a lot of Americans who are taking advantage of what is given to them and I don't believe it's fair for hardworking Americans who struggle to support themselves should have to pick up the tab.
[QUOTE=TheManInUrPC;52489440]Anecdotes do not trump facts. I said on the previous page that 14.5 million people who are newly insured under Obamacare are on Medicaid. And most of them pay little to nothing.[/QUOTE]
I asked you to source this.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52489456]I asked you to source this.[/QUOTE]
I did? [url]https://www.americanactionforum.org/insight/20-million/[/url]
I linked it in my text. Just scroll down to the Medicaid Expansion provision.
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