Court: Illegal immigrants can't have guns - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Lankist;35879117]I'm sorry, did I say that was good, either? The first part of your quotation.[/QUOTE] Well okay then, I'm sorry but I'm not entirely sure of your stance on this issue. Do you want illegal aliens to be granted [b]all[/b] Constitutional rights, even the right to vote? Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but that starts to make the whole concept of citizenship irrelevant. [editline]13:37[/editline] Except, perhaps, as a requirement for holding office, although I don't think that illegal immigrants are very interested in that, to be honest.

[QUOTE=DeathDoom;35879146]Well okay then, I'm sorry but I'm not entirely sure of your stance on this issue. Do you want illegal aliens to be granted [b]all[/b] Constitutional rights, even the right to vote?[/QUOTE] They do have the right to vote. They are simply logistically unable to due to the fact that you must register and prove citizenship as a requirement of voting. This exists NOT to destroy a voting bloc, but to insure against voter fraud. Were that not the case, and anyone could just walk up and vote, you could not stop them on the grounds of their not being a citizen without reexamining the way we dole out constitutional rights. Similarly, gun ownership has never been an issue because you must prove your identity and undergo a background check when purchasing a gun, something most illegal immigrants cannot undergo. [editline]8th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=DeathDoom;35879146]Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but that starts to make the whole concept of citizenship irrelevant.[/QUOTE] Citizenship IS irrelevant in terms of constitutional rights. Nowhere in the constitution does it say only citizens get these rights. They are inalienable rights imposed as RESTRICTIONS upon government, NOT privileges upon citizens. Read the Bill of Rights. It never says "Citizens may X" It says "Government may not X" That means to ANYONE, citizen or no. The Bill of Rights and the following amendments are intentionally authored as a giant list of shit the government cannot do, not as a list of shit the people are allowed to do. This is that reason.

[QUOTE=Lankist;35879173]They do have the right to vote. They are simply logistically unable to due to the fact that you must register and prove citizenship as a requirement of voting. This exists NOT to destroy a voting bloc, but to insure against voter fraud. Were that not the case, and anyone could just walk up and vote, you could not stop them on the grounds of their not being a citizen without reexamining the way we dole out constitutional rights. Similarly, gun ownership has never been an issue because you must prove your identity and undergo a background check when purchasing a gun, something most illegal immigrants cannot undergo.[/QUOTE] Well, you could have a point. It seems as though because of this ruling, the only right under the BoR denied to illegals is the right to bear arms, although the whole thing becomes confusing since, being an illegal, if the government "found out about him", he would probably be deported anyway, which seems to make the entire point irrelevant to begin with. [editline]13:37[/editline] [quote] Citizenship IS irrelevant in terms of constitutional rights. Nowhere in the constitution does it say only citizens get these rights. They are inalienable rights imposed as RESTRICTIONS upon government, NOT privileges upon citizens. Read the Bill of Rights. It never says "Citizens may X" It says "Government may not X" That means to ANYONE, citizen or no. The Bill of Rights and the following amendments are intentionally authored as a giant list of shit the government cannot do, not as a list of shit the people are allowed to do. This is that reason.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I know. I was referring specifically to the right to vote in that case, which, as you've said, only citizens are able to do anyway due to registration.

[QUOTE=DeathDoom;35879223]Well, you could have a point. It seems as though because of this ruling, the only right under the BoR denied to illegals is the right to bear arms, although the whole thing becomes confusing since, being an illegal, if the government "found out about him", he would probably be deported anyway, which seems to make the entire point irrelevant to begin with.[/QUOTE] It's an entirely moot and pointless ruling. Deportation would follow the discovery of an illegal whether he is in possession of a weapon or not. This ruling is simply an expression of xenophobia and veiled racism.

[QUOTE=Sanius;35878405]that makes no sense there's just as much a point for an illegal to own a gun as there is for a legal to own a gun [editline]1[/editline] idk maybe if I hated brown people I would be able to understand your viewpoint better[/QUOTE] I agree, but how can't they legally obtain a gun anyway? They do a background check when you buy firearms right? Laws are enforced inside a country, not on a group of people. If you're not legally staying you're still going to get help from social services.

[QUOTE=sami-pso;35879297]I agree, but how can't they legally obtain a gun anyway? They do a background check when you buy firearms right?[/QUOTE] not in every state...

[QUOTE=Lankist;35879240]It's an entirely moot and pointless ruling. Deportation would follow the discovery of an illegal whether he is in possession of a weapon or not. This ruling is simply an expression of xenophobia and veiled racism.[/QUOTE] I don't know if you've noticed but I made my posts agree with you more and more as we went on. This is actually the first time my mind has been changed during an internet discussion. [editline]13:37[/editline] Well, it was more of an alteration, but whatever.

[QUOTE=thisispain;35879326]not in every state...[/QUOTE] That's an argument for states to do better background checks. [editline]8th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=DeathDoom;35879352]I don't know if you've noticed but I made my posts agree with you more and more as we went on. This is actually the first time my mind has been changed during an internet discussion.[/QUOTE] I wasn't even aware we disagreed. I was just sort of spitballing. Good on you, though.

[QUOTE=Sanius;35878405]that makes no sense there's just as much a point for an illegal to own a gun as there is for a legal to own a gun [editline]1[/editline] idk maybe if I hated brown people I would be able to understand your viewpoint better[/QUOTE] Illegal Immigrants shouldn't even be here in the first place.

[QUOTE=Tacosheller;35878627]They're, pardon the stereotype, taking our jobs. [/quote] Of dishwashing, picking fruit, and odd jobs. Oh no. [quote]They're using benefits[/quote] Such as? They almost universally don't call emergency services for any reason and don't have the necessary documentation to utilize other government benefits. [quote] and not paying taxes [/quote] Employers automatically deduct taxes in most cases. Employers with illegal immigrants in particular have to appear to be operating as intended on paper. Which means that not only do they pay taxes, but they actually pay more than their income bracket would likely need to pay since they can't file for returns. [quote] so money doesn't circulate. If they were citizens, it'd be fine. I'm all for an easier way for citizenship, but that doesn't mean they should do it illegally.[/QUOTE] Protections of the constitution should be provided to everyone within our borders. It is an all or nothing deal, you don't get to choose.

and bamn, gunfox bats another homerun.

[QUOTE=thisispain;35879326]not in every state...[/QUOTE] For all federally licensed dealers, they are required to use the NICS system to run an instant background check prior to sale. Private sellers are the only ones not universally required. EDIT: Not being a jerk, just pointing out that private sellers are the likely source here.

[QUOTE=DeadCow;35878720]I should have specified that I'm talking about strict gun control, like in California. There's a bunch of stupid laws on guns here. On my AR-15, we: -had to wait 10 days after purchase before picking it up. -had to get a non-detachable magazine (you need a pen point to get the magazine out). -had to limit the magazine capacity to 10 rounds. -had to do a few other stupid pointless things. Would a criminal pay attention to these laws? Most likely not. A criminal could buy a gun right off the street, no waiting period, paperwork, or anything.[/QUOTE] I hate California gun laws. I don't even really want every type of gun with a million rounds of ammo. But when I have to keep reloading my .22 when I'm target shooting because I'm not allowed to have a magazine over 10 rounds gets really annoying. For once, I would just like to be able to shoot for a while without reloading, or having to buy another magazine. But hey, having three mags with 10 rounds is[I] so much safer[/I] than 30 round mags.

[QUOTE=Lankist;35879076]The constitution applies to everyone, not just citizens. What this is doing is setting a precedent that only citizens have rights. That is simply not the case.[/QUOTE] That's actually a really good point, I think you just caused me to switch my opinion about this issue.

[QUOTE=Lankist;35879173]They do have the right to vote. They are simply logistically unable to due to the fact that you must register and prove citizenship as a requirement of voting. This exists NOT to destroy a voting bloc, but to insure against voter fraud. Were that not the case, and anyone could just walk up and vote, you could not stop them on the grounds of their not being a citizen without reexamining the way we dole out constitutional rights. Similarly, gun ownership has never been an issue because you must prove your identity and undergo a background check when purchasing a gun, something most illegal immigrants cannot undergo. [editline]8th May 2012[/editline] Citizenship IS irrelevant in terms of constitutional rights. Nowhere in the constitution does it say only citizens get these rights. They are inalienable rights imposed as RESTRICTIONS upon government, NOT privileges upon citizens. Read the Bill of Rights. It never says "Citizens may X" It says "Government may not X" That means to ANYONE, citizen or no. The Bill of Rights and the following amendments are intentionally authored as a giant list of shit the government cannot do, not as a list of shit the people are allowed to do. This is that reason.[/QUOTE] Wait what the fuck? Lankist is actually saying things I agree with, this is scary.

[QUOTE=Lankist;35879173]Citizenship IS irrelevant in terms of constitutional rights. Nowhere in the constitution does it say only citizens get these rights. They are inalienable rights imposed as RESTRICTIONS upon government, NOT privileges upon citizens. Read the Bill of Rights. It never says "Citizens may X" It says "Government may not X" That means to ANYONE, citizen or no. The Bill of Rights and the following amendments are intentionally authored as a giant list of shit the government cannot do, not as a list of shit the people are allowed to do. This is that reason.[/QUOTE] So this means if I go to the United States as a tourist and someone would lend me his gun I could legally go all fuck yeah and shot things?

[QUOTE=ctlilc;35879838]So this means if I go to the United States as a tourist and someone would lend me his gun I could legally go all fuck yeah and shot things?[/QUOTE] Buddy I want you to really think about what you're asking me to respond to, and [I]really[/I] ask yourself if you want to go down this road.

[QUOTE=Lankist;35879076]The constitution applies to everyone, not just citizens. What this is doing is setting a precedent that only citizens have rights. That is simply not the case.[/QUOTE] I was under the impression that our use of torture on terror suspects already set that precedent. Not that I agree with such a precedent of course.

[QUOTE=Melkor;35879947]I was under the impression that our use of torture on terror suspects already set that precedent. Not that I agree with such a precedent of course.[/QUOTE] Hasn't been taken to any courts to establish any precedence. That's why they made a secret prison in Cuba. Precedence is set in the courtroom, and these people have yet to see any verdicts.

Good. Makes fucking sense anyway. [editline]8th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Lankist;35879173] Citizenship IS irrelevant in terms of constitutional rights. Nowhere in the constitution does it say only citizens get these rights. They are inalienable rights imposed as RESTRICTIONS upon government, NOT privileges upon citizens. Read the Bill of Rights. It never says "Citizens may X" It says "Government may not X" That means to ANYONE, citizen or no. The Bill of Rights and the following amendments are intentionally authored as a giant list of shit the government cannot do, not as a list of shit the people are allowed to do. This is that reason.[/QUOTE] Uh no. Sorry. 2nd Amendment to the Bill of Rights: The Right to Bear Arms reads as follows. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The key phrase there is "the people", which refers to the people of the united states as coined in the very beginning of the united states constitution, which reads "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." "We the [i]People of the United States[/i]" Illegal Immigrants are not 'People of the United States', they are people of their home nation. If they're Mexican immigrants they are People of the United Mexican States. If they're Cuban immigrants, they are People of the Republic of Cuba, etc. They do not become "People of the United States" until they gain citizenship, in which case whether or not they may garner civil rights from the United States Constitution is up to the law and our court system.

Being here illegally, they should have NO rights in this country. Go through the proper procedures like everybody else.

[QUOTE=Ven Kaeo;35879983]Good. Makes fucking sense anyway. [editline]8th May 2012[/editline] Uh no. Sorry. 2nd Amendment to the Bill of Rights: The Right to Bear Arms reads as follows. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The key phrase there is "the people", which refers to the people of the united states as coined in the very beginning of the united states constitution, which reads "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." "We the [i]People of the United States[/i]" Illegal Immigrants are not 'People of the United States', they are people of their home nation. If they're Mexican immigrants they are People of the United Mexican States. If they're Cuban immigrants, they are People of the Republic of Cuba, etc. They do not become "People of the United States" until they gain citizenship, in which case whether or not they may garner civil rights from the United States Constitution is up to the law and our court system.[/QUOTE] Up next, foreigners here legally with Visas get thrown in jail for exercising freedom of speech! At which point they are not provided a public defender and are held for years before being arraigned.

[QUOTE=Sanius;35878480]who are they harming by being here illegally. why do they deserve to be demonized. why does the government have the right to tell people where they can and can not be[/QUOTE] Something called taxes, and rights, and not paying the same taxes we are and stuff. The list goes on. Are you high or just dumb?

[QUOTE=kenshin6;35880056]Being here illegally, they should have NO rights in this country. Go through the proper procedures like everybody else.[/QUOTE] I don't think you realize how hard it is for an immigrant with only basic skills to get into this country.

[QUOTE=kenshin6;35880056]Being here illegally, they should have NO rights in this country. Go through the proper procedures like everybody else.[/QUOTE] Out of all the posts in this thread, this one has to be the dumbest.

Finally, at least one judge sees [B]illegal[/B] immigrants as criminals. Not like these libtards that want to give them free schooling and driver's licenses.

[QUOTE=faze;35880221]Finally, at least one judge sees [B]illegal[/B] immigrants as criminals. Not like these libtards that want to give them free schooling and driver's licenses.[/QUOTE] oh yeah because stopping them from getting jobs or driving certification will definitely make life better for everyone. at least libtards don't have shitty ideas faze, you'd do well to fucking remember that

[QUOTE=GunFox;35880067]Up next, foreigners here legally with Visas get thrown in jail for exercising freedom of speech! At which point they are not provided a public defender and are held for years before being arraigned.[/QUOTE] If they're here legally and they have a visa or legal documentation that permits them to be here, then they are here at the behest of the united states government and are assured the same rights as a US Citizen. It is only when they are here illegally, without consent or request from the US Government, that they should not and technically do not have these rights.

[QUOTE=thisispain;35880252]oh yeah because stopping them from getting jobs or driving certification will definitely make life better for everyone. at least libtards don't have shitty ideas faze, you'd do well to fucking remember that[/QUOTE] Let them come here legally. Change the law to allow anyone to waltz across the border with the whole drug war in Mexico. That'll sure help things. Maybe I would shut up then.

[QUOTE=Melkor;35880154]I don't think you realize how hard it is for an immigrant with only basic skills to get into this country.[/QUOTE] Which is as it should be. I'm sorry if I sound harsh and I don't mean to be an asshole about it but we have a big enough pool of unemployed unskilled people without adding illegal immigrants to the mix. Especially when they don't pay taxes, don't contribute to our economy, reap the benefits of our economy regardless, and are often given jobs that our own citizens could get because tax evading freeloader farm owners and other such people hire them at half the minimum wage.