Anti-NATO protestants in Lisbon, 45 arrests so far - Polidicks

[QUOTE=MercZ;26213443]You guys asked what is so bad about NATO- I said it in a few words. More denial, then I have to bring out evidence relating to a tense period in Italy. Don't blame me if the truth is too hard to swallow- there is a reason why people protest NATO- it has blood on its hand, and it's not just in Afghanistan but in Europe itself. I didn't even bother mentioning Piano Solo or Golpe Borghese, the attempted coups and purges that Gladio nearly carried out. Operation Gladio screwed with many nations for the purpose of propping up NATO to the interest of the US foreign policy. A lot of people got needlessly killed in bombings and assassinations, very few of whom were even "Communist". There was the need to create tension to create a political scenario favorable to them. So apologize if it seems so unnecessary to break the mindless circlejerk in this thread. Really though this is how it has gone on- people don't care. You don't need to arrest people or censor anything if people ignore or block out information. There's a lot of information about Gladio now and how NATO was really used- it's investigated by the nations that were affected by it- but simply put it's only after the damage was done, objectives were achieved, and they get away Scott-free while maintaining the sugar-coated version of NATO and the fall-back armies.[/QUOTE] Do you know what the main purpose of NATO is? The organization constitutes a system of collective defence whereby its member states agree to mutual defence in response to an attack by any external party. That external party known as Russia specifically, and if a few left-wing Soviet apologists like yourself have to die to ensure that the VDV don't show up in my back yard, then so be it. Ofcourse that's all in the past, but NATO is still the main guarantor of security for Europe.

[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26218844]Do you know what the main purpose of NATO is? The organization constitutes a system of collective defence whereby its member states agree to mutual defence in response to an attack by any external party. That external party known as Russia specifically, and if a few left-wing Soviet apologists like yourself have to die to ensure that the VDV don't show up in my back yard, then so be it. Ofcourse that's all in the past, but NATO is still the main guarantor of security for Europe.[/QUOTE] First off, I'm not a "left-wing Soviet apologist". If that's what we are calling people like myself who do not like it when foreign intelligence entities kill people needlessly, then you need to rethink what you are saying. This is not merely about the function of NATO being a self-defense arrangement. Way to read. Think this through. Years of Lead. Instability and chaos in Italy. Safety for a NATO member nation? Hardly. Hundreds of civilians killed. 85 innocent civilians killed in the 1980 attack in Bologna alone. Italian Prime Minister and other politicians assassinated, regardless if they were PCI or Christian Democrats. Hell, it didn't even matter if you were just a journalist who was concerned about the needless death of civilians. A country filled with despair and rage as more draconian measures are imposed and political dialog collapsing between PCI and the Christian Democrats? Preserving democracy and multi-party democracy that differentiated the West from East? Nope. All at the hands of an organisation which was only supposed to act as a fall-back army. It's also questionable if they were doing this for Italy's "safety", or to save face for larger groups in NATO. Hardly a mutual arrangement there. I think there was plenty of ways to avoid, in your words, VDV showing up in your backyard, that wouldn't involve interfering in the affairs of NATO member states and killing innocent civilians. Isn't that what NATO is supposed to stop? Or is it only if Soviets or some other entity does that?

[QUOTE=MercZ;26218982]First off, I'm not a "left-wing Soviet apologist". If that's what we are calling people like myself who do not like it when foreign intelligence entities kill people needlessly, then you need to rethink what you are saying.[/QUOTE] If I remember you correctly from Melonbrew then really, who are you trying to fool? [QUOTE=MercZ;26218982]political dialog collapsing between PCI and the Christian Democrats?[/QUOTE] I don't get it.. Are you implying this is a negative result? [QUOTE=MercZ;26218982]It's also questionable if they were doing this for Italy's "safety", or to save face for larger groups in NATO. Hardly a mutual arrangement there.[/QUOTE] It's also about, like you communists would put it, maintaining the ideological and political integrity of the nation. [QUOTE=MercZ;26218982]I think there was plenty of ways to avoid, in your words, VDV showing up in your backyard, that wouldn't involve interfering in the affairs of NATO member states and killing innocent civilians. Isn't that what NATO is supposed to stop? Or is it only if Soviets or some other entity does that?[/QUOTE] As we can see from the events of 1990, their deaths were not in vain.

[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26219888]If I remember you correctly from Melonbrew then really, who are you trying to fool?[/quote] You seem to confuse the difference between roleplaying and what one actually believes, but nice strawman. [quote] I don't get it.. Are you implying this is a negative result?[/quote] The two major political parties able to resolve their differences and get Italy's economy back on track is a negative result? The PCI, despite what had been portrayed, had drifted from the Soviet position for some time by that point. Enrico Berlinguer, for one, was not really pro-Soviet and belonged to a different ideological perspective than the one that was advanced by the Soviet Union at the time. The threat was simply that NATO wouldn't have clowns that would listen to its every whim, more so with popular resentment against being in the agreement in the first place. I mean, Aldo Moro was hardly a communist wackjob, belonging to the other party and all. That goes for almost everyone else too. [quote] It's also about, like you communists would put it, maintaining the ideological and political integrity of the nation.[/quote] Don't put words in my mouth, much less make assumptions of ideology. [quote] As we can see from the events of 1990, their deaths were not in vain.[/QUOTE] How were they not in vain? This whole situation could have been handled differently with still the end result of the Soviet Union collapse- with out the Years of Lead happening at all. Instead the only thing we have is meaningless deaths and utter ignorance of what really happened in these factions. And a lot of unanswered crime. How is it that "fall back armies" suddenly become intelligence agencies of their own, to the point of overriding what the a state itself was deciding, is even carrying out its functions any more? It's clearly beyond "self-defense" by this point, and broke the lives of people who shouldn't have been dragged in the first place.

tl;dr MercZ's wall of text, NATO is about several nations involved having a monopoly on force in the world (sort of like the UN) whereas they do defend the smaller countries in it, sometimes, most of the time one larger country goes "lol fuck you" to some smaller one not belonging to NATO and nobody really says a peep, not even the people being dragged along in the wars. I guess it depends if you view any of the wars the west has fought since Korea (including Korea) "valid".

[QUOTE=MercZ;26220150]The two major political parties able to resolve their differences and get Italy's economy back on track is a negative result?[/QUOTE] Cooperation with an openly communist political party, thereby legitimizing communist governance everywhere. And so on and so forth. [QUOTE=MercZ;26220150]The PCI, despite what had been portrayed, had drifted from the Soviet position for some time by that point. Enrico Berlinguer, for one, was not really pro-Soviet and belonged to a different ideological perspective than the one that was advanced by the Soviet Union at the time.[/QUOTE] Ah yes, "at the time." [QUOTE=MercZ;26220150]I mean, Aldo Moro was hardly a communist wackjob, belonging to the other party and all. That goes for almost everyone else too.[/quote] But he was a spineless traitor. [QUOTE=MercZ;26220150]How were they not in vain? This whole situation could have been handled differently with still the end result of the Soviet Union collapse- with out the Years of Lead happening at all. Instead the only thing we have is meaningless deaths and utter ignorance of what really happened in these factions. And a lot of unanswered crime.[/QUOTE] How would you have handled it differently? You seem to forget there was a war going on. [QUOTE=MercZ;26220150]How is it that "fall back armies" suddenly become intelligence agencies of their own, to the point of overriding what the a state itself was deciding, is even carrying out its functions any more? It's clearly beyond "self-defense" by this point, and broke the lives of people who shouldn't have been dragged in the first place.[/QUOTE] Thanks to Soviet penetration of several Western intelligence agencies and the fact that we live in an open society the need for secrecy became even greater. Besides, it's not just about physical defense. [QUOTE=s0beit;26220409]I guess it depends if you view any of the wars the west has fought since Korea (including Korea) "valid".[/QUOTE] Is the use of coercive force ever "valid"? Totally irrelevant question.

[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26220936]Cooperation with an openly communist political party, thereby legitimizing communist governance everywhere. And so on and so forth.[/QUOTE] My god, you sound like a mix of Richard Nixon and Liberty Prime.

[QUOTE=WickedIcon;26220957]My god, you sound like a mix of Richard Nixon and Liberty Prime.[/QUOTE] That's a very erudite observation. But where's your argument?

These people have the right to protest but any harassment of any officers can and will lead to arrest.

And only the troublemakers were arrested. There were hundreds, maybe thousands of people in these protests, and a bus coming from spain FULL of activists that were going to protest was stopped from entering Portugal, but since only 45 people were arrested, I'd say it was extremely peaceful.

[QUOTE=acds;26180284]Not for these people. These are the typical anarchist teens that will protest against anything.[/QUOTE] Ladies and gentlemen, the thing people say when they want to classify protesters whom they disagree with.