• Scottish independence: Nicola Sturgeon to seek second referendum for 2018/19
    93 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Craigewan;51953217]I'll take that over being stuck in a post-Brexit conservative wasteland, thanks.[/QUOTE] Wait so you're saying the economic impact of Brexit is a justification for another referendum, even if the outcome of that referendum is an even worse economic impact? :v:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/RfsOZHC.png[/img] just leaving this here
[QUOTE=The mouse;51953205]Yes, it'll take 10 years in the wilderness with no guarantee of membership where at which point, you'll be forced to use the Euro and have a hard border with the UK. All whilst trying to fund a welfare state without UK subsidies or Oil money. Good Luck.[/QUOTE] We won't have EU membership in either case, so that doesn't matter. Considering that the United Kingdom is in continued decline, (after leaving the EU it's probably just going to end up subservient to the USA) I see no reason why we should remain as part of the UK. They ruled out soft-brexit, so I don't think we should rule out independence. Scotland leaving the union would be the final nail in the coffin for the United Kingdom as a viable entity. After that point it's going to end up with England dragging around everybody else until they jump ship.
[QUOTE=The mouse;51953227]Wait so you're saying the economic impact of Brexit is a justification for another referendum, even if the outcome of that referendum is an even worse economic impact? :v:[/QUOTE] Considering we haven't even Brexited yet, just had the vote on it (which caused the pound to jitter already), and all the economic forecasts for post-Brexit are dire. Can't be any worse, and at least this way we'll be politically sovereign. I think you misapprehend how much we're tired of English politics dragging us to places we don't want to go.
Fair enough honestly. We can't dangle EU membership as an incentive for staying a part of the UK and then immediately abandon it.
[QUOTE=Crumpet;51953210]Unless you live in Scotland I don't see why you care? I also don't see the problem with another referendum. If the result is yes then opinion changed, what's the problem? Aren't you guys champions of democracy? It's like all the brexiters staunchly refusing a second referendum with two proper sides and truthful campaigns. Too much of your ego is invested in that B word methinks.[/QUOTE] Aside from the fact that I am entitled to an opinion irregardless, the question of Scottish independence affects the UK as a whole, and therefore it will affect me. Also, it's really not realistic to go holding referendums every time someone changes their mind. That's not democracy - that's a waste of time and money.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51953236]We won't have EU membership in either case, so that doesn't matter. Considering that the United Kingdom is in continued decline [/QUOTE] Even though economically it's growing faster than any other economy in Western Europe. It's ironic when the Scottish Nationalists assert that the UK is in decline, because if it is, they are the cause of it. [QUOTE=Craigewan;51953240]Considering we haven't even Brexited yet, just had the vote on it (which caused the pound to jitter already), and all the economic forecasts for post-Brexit are dire. Can't be any worse, and at least this way we'll be politically sovereign. I think you misapprehend how much we're tired of English politics dragging us to places we don't want to go.[/QUOTE] I mean if you're happy to knowingly commit yourself to an even worse economic oblivion then go ahead. Although the democracy argument for Scottish independence is absurd, so what if Scotland doesn't vote Tory but gets a Tory government? Essex and Cornwall don't vote Labour but have gotten Labour governments. What makes Scotland so special. Moreso, I think you're forgetting just how many people in Scotland did vote for both Thatcher, Blair and Brexit. It's simply false to claim that Scotland has any long standing differences with the rest of the UK.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51953156]considering the EU only centralises with common consent i fail to see how this is akin to losing independence[/QUOTE] Yeah about that common consent, here we have Guy Verhofstadt literally saying that he wants to get a EU government like body that can make decisions without consent of the member states. [video=youtube;J881RYZla44]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J881RYZla44[/video] [QUOTE=Craigewan;51953171]The sovereignty we "lose" to the EU is very different to that which we have lost as part of the UK.[/QUOTE] Yet the outcome is the same you lose it. So calling for a referendum for independence and to hand over this very same independence in a few years would be a bit of false advertising don't you think
If May denies it we should just hold a referendum anyway, unilaterally.
Hey, let's remember that if someone hasn't followed a non-binding referendum to brexit, Scotlkand wouldn't prepare a Referendum for 2018 about leaving UK for EU. Just sayin'.
[QUOTE=The mouse;51953267]Even though economically it's growing faster than any other economy in Western Europe. It's ironic when the Scottish Nationalists assert that the UK is in decline, because if it is, they are the cause of it.[/QUOTE] leaving the european union is going to cause a lot of problems for the UK and as a political entity the UK has been in decline for a long time and is shrinking. The Irish broke off in the 1920s, the Scottish, Northern Irish, and Welsh got devolved administrations in the 90s, and now the movements in each respective country to leave the UK have gained a lot of traction since the 90s and in the case of Scotland nearly succeeded. the british economy and society has been decentralizing for a long time, scotland is no longer as tied to england as it once was. plus i don't care if scotland leaving causes problems for britain - as far as i am concerned refusing to have a soft brexit is evidence enough that the 49% of EU voters aren't being listened to
Always look on the bright side - per capita drug abuse rates will plummet after they go. Probably a bunch of other things will look better too, except for economic size. Shortbread prices will probably rise though.
[QUOTE=download;51953088]When Scotland leaves the UK they'll have to start the process of joining the EU from scratch and from a very weak position.[/QUOTE] Arguing from a weaker position isnt stopping the Uk from being retarded though...
Take me with you :(
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51953290]leaving the european union is going to cause a lot of problems for the UK and as a political entity the UK has been in decline for a long time and is shrinking. The Irish broke off in the 1920s, the Scottish, Northern Irish, and Welsh got devolved administrations in the 90s, and now the movements in each respective country to leave the UK have gained a lot of traction since the 90s and in the case of Scotland nearly succeeded. the british economy and society has been decentralizing for a long time, scotland is no longer as tied to england as it once was. plus i don't care if scotland leaving causes problems for britain - as far as i am concerned refusing to have a soft brexit is evidence enough that the 49% of EU voters aren't being listened to[/QUOTE] Except that with a population of 64 Million and holding the financial captial of Europe, the UK is economically strong enough to weather leaving the EU. Scotland has a population of 5 million, it economically reliant on close cooperation with the UK, therefore it probably isn't strong enough to weather leaving the UK without some serious damage. That is also a massively simplistic view of history. The reasons that Ireland seceeded were fundamentally based in culture and politics. Ireland's different religion and language played a huge role in galvanising the Irish independence movement. Whilst because Ireland was slowly conqurered by the British, it fundamentally wasn't goverened by it's own people and therefore the rule of Parliament was never legitimate. Whilst Scotland by comparison had a similar religion and language and was geographically connected to England, this meant that there was much more kinship between the Scottish and English than between the British and Irish. Scotland too was joined politically with England with the consent of it's ruling elite, therefore Scotland consented to rule from Westminster. Therefore the secession of Ireland was unique and not the start of a process of disintergration. As far as a "Soft Brexit" or "Hard Brexit" is concened, it's an enirely contrived difference created by remainers. The British government would love nothing more than a "Soft Brexit" but it's the EU that won't give any ground in regards to free trade.
I'm not sure how I feel about this, if it will even be good for the Scottish long run. As much as I'd love to see an Independent Scotland.
[QUOTE=The mouse;51953328]Except that with a population of 64 Million and holding the financial captial of Europe, the UK is economically strong enough to weather leaving the EU. Scotland has a population of 5 million, it economically reliant on close cooperation with the UK, therefore it probably isn't strong enough to weather leaving the UK without some serious damage.[/quote] the irish managed it, why can't scotland? also the british economy has decentralized since then, there's no longer the same arguments for keeping scotland in the union that might have held true in the 70s [quote]That is also a massively simplistic view of history. The reasons that Ireland seceeded were fundamentally based in culture and politics. Ireland's different religion and language played a huge role in galvanising the Irish independence movement. Whilst because Ireland was slowly conqurered by the British, it fundamentally wasn't goverened by it's own people and therefore the rule of Parliament was never legitimate. Whilst Scotland by comparison had a similar religion and language and was geographically connected to England, this meant that there was much more kinship between the Scottish and English than between the British and Irish. Scotland too was joined politically with England with the consent of it's ruling elite, therefore Scotland consented to rule from Westminster. Therefore the secession of Ireland was unique and not the start of a process of disintergration.[/quote] you're forgetting the fact that the 1707 act of union was deeply unpopular in scotland and numerous riots happened as a consequence. there's also how the scottish have retained their own legal system, branch of the anglic languages, and eventually the administration was devolved in the 19th century. there's also the additional fact that the scottish nationalist movement coming out of nowhere in the past 30 years tells you a lot about how the political situation here has changed. if scotland is getting more powers of self-rule and autonomy, and it's clear that we can rule ourselves, then why not leave? we want a better deal and we think being part of the european union helps in that regard also it wasn't just ireland that left - northern ireland was in a state of (often de facto) civil war for much of the 20th century and today it's still quite divided. brexit threatens to spark that off again also I remember John Major and other tories in the 90s talking about how devolved parliaments would lead to the dissolution of the UK - so its not exactly unfounded even within the rightwing that this might be a thing [quote]As far as a "Soft Brexit" or "Hard Brexit" is concened, it's an enirely contrived difference created by remainers. The British government would love nothing more than a "Soft Brexit" but it's the EU that won't give any ground in regards to free trade.[/QUOTE] largely because the westminster government seems very keen on denying the rights of EU citizens post-brexit
[QUOTE=download;51953088]When Scotland leaves the UK they'll have to start the process of joining the EU from scratch and from a very weak position.[/QUOTE] thats what I don't get, why can't we just say England, Wales and NI are leaving but Scotland is leaving the UK to stay with the EU. We never leave and don't have to re-apply :v:
Can we draw the line at Manchester so I can come too? If the Scots have another referendum, I think they'll vote to leave the UK.
[QUOTE=download;51953088]When Scotland leaves the UK they'll have to start the process of joining the EU from scratch and from a very weak position.[/QUOTE] That depends on a lot of factors. One of the major selling points for the UK is their financial sector. Look at all the banks and investments based in London. Scotland already has a lot of the laws that make London appealing as a byproduct of being part of the UK. If Scotland wants to join the EU, there's a ton of money in "not fixing things that aren't broken" legislatively speaking, which could make Scotland look very appealing as a member should the UK actually leave. The banks and investment companies do not want to move to areas with radically different legislation. Obviously it's [i]significantly[/i] more complicated than I'm making it out to be, but the appeal of the idea isn't that unorthodox.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;51953860]That depends on a lot of factors. One of the major selling points for the UK is their financial sector. Look at all the banks and investments based in London.[B] Scotland already has a lot of the laws that make London appealing as a byproduct of being part of the UK. If Scotland wants to join the EU, there's a ton of money in "not fixing things that aren't broken" legislatively speaking, which could make Scotland look very appealing as a member should the UK actually leave. The banks and investment companies do not want to move to areas with radically different legislation.[/B] Obviously it's [i]significantly[/i] more complicated than I'm making it out to be, but the appeal of the idea isn't that unorthodox.[/QUOTE] Whilst I can appreciate the idea that firms could move from London to Edinburgh looks simple enough from the outside, it is more complicated than that. Scotland is governed by Scots Law which is a different legal system from that used in London - why would they move to Edinburgh instead of Frankfurt when both of those options entail a different legal system. Also, there are no guarantees that an independent Scotland would want to follow the same sort of pro-City of London policies that the UK currently follows. On the contrary, the SNP have been quite vocal in their opposition to the Conservative party's policies (low corporation tax, seeking to protect the City of London during Brexit etc.) (And, if you want to get really technical: the whole reason the City of London is so successful is due to the constitutional quirks that give the City a special status. It has it's own Mayor and the corporations that reside there get a vote in local elections.)
Unbelievable. Well heres to a few more years of economic uncertainty and a continuing of splitting families, friends and communities down the middle.
Already had a rant about this on Facebook. One of my friends put "Dont make a cunt of it this time Scotland. Up the independence" I had to counter with some logic at least "Yeah let's break up the UK nothing bad can happen right. No defecit owed and EU would defo take Scotland in and pay all that debt off. Be prepared for another Greece or Portugal if it passes. This isn't braveheart" Most people don't understand that the SNP is lying to them about most of the "issues" And of course his typical Scottish FREEDOMEEE attitude had to say "Rather be run by europe than a bunch of upper class english mongols"
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;51953860]That depends on a lot of factors. One of the major selling points for the UK is their financial sector. Look at all the banks and investments based in London. Scotland already has a lot of the laws that make London appealing as a byproduct of being part of the UK. If Scotland wants to join the EU, there's a ton of money in "not fixing things that aren't broken" legislatively speaking, which could make Scotland look very appealing as a member should the UK actually leave. The banks and investment companies do not want to move to areas with radically different legislation. Obviously it's [i]significantly[/i] more complicated than I'm making it out to be, but the appeal of the idea isn't that unorthodox.[/QUOTE] If Scotland wasn't sitting on the highest deficit in the OECD, they'd probably have a chance to join the EU.
[QUOTE=joshthesmith;51954476]Already had a rant about this on Facebook. One of my friends put "Dont make a cunt of it this time Scotland. Up the independence" I had to counter with some logic at least "Yeah let's break up the UK nothing bad can happen right. No defecit owed and EU would defo take Scotland in and pay all that debt off. Be prepared for another Greece or Portugal if it passes. This isn't braveheart" Most people don't understand that the SNP is lying to them about most of the "issues" And of course his typical Scottish FREEDOMEEE attitude had to say "Rather be run by europe than a bunch of upper class english mongols"[/QUOTE] There is nothing that is logical about Scottish independence. I cannot think of even one thing.
[B]It is all fucking over.[/B]
Nicola Sturgeon can search for this dick.
[QUOTE=David29;51955492]There is nothing that is logical about Scottish independence. I cannot think of even one thing.[/QUOTE] there's nothing logical about brexit either
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51955553]there's nothing logical about brexit either[/QUOTE] But I'm not talking about Brexit.
This entire Brexit and Jockerendum escapade is literally like someone sailed a giant balloon animal filled with vaporized diarrhea and exploded it all over everything.
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