• Scottish independence: Nicola Sturgeon to seek second referendum for 2018/19
    93 replies, posted
[QUOTE=dunkace;51954427]Unbelievable. Well heres to a few more years of economic uncertainty and a continuing of splitting families, friends and communities down the middle.[/QUOTE] Yeah, well Theresa May isn't exactly a nice person. I'm sure she wont be crying into her money pillow over the country falling apart thanks to her decisions tonight. Or ever. I don't think she can actually process emotion after all.
[QUOTE=David29;51955568]But I'm not talking about Brexit.[/QUOTE] it's pretty much the entire reason for the second referendum now there's nothing logical about remaining part of the UK after brexit now
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51955624]it's pretty much the entire reason for the second referendum now there's nothing logical about remaining part of the UK after brexit now[/QUOTE] What the Christ? You seriously think that Scotland would be better off on its own outside of the U.K.?
[QUOTE=David29;51955655]What the Christ? You seriously think that Scotland would be better off on its own outside of the U.K.?[/QUOTE] You seriously think Scotland decided to remain in UK because UK was cool? I thouht they remained as leaving UK meant leaving EU.
[QUOTE=David29;51955655]What the Christ? You seriously think that Scotland would be better off on its own outside of the U.K.?[/QUOTE] We in Ireland managed it. I think the Scottish can do it. It would be painful but it's possible specially since they would be in the EU. Not sure whether they should do that but considering the attitudes of people in England vs the attitudes of the Scottish I think the Scottish would be much better off politically if they were not in the UK.
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;51955853]You seriously think Scotland decided to remain in UK because UK was cool? I thouht they remained as leaving UK meant leaving EU.[/QUOTE] No. I thought they chose to remain in the UK because leaving the UK would cripple their economy.
[QUOTE=David29;51955864]No. I thought they chose to remain in the UK because leaving the UK would cripple their economy.[/QUOTE] Pfft. Tell that to the Republic of Ireland.
[QUOTE=David29;51955655]What the Christ? You seriously think that Scotland would be better off on its own outside of the U.K.?[/QUOTE] well, yeah it's not like it can't be done can it?
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;51955853]You seriously think Scotland decided to remain in UK because UK was cool? I thouht they remained as leaving UK meant leaving EU.[/QUOTE] Can we stop acting like 200,000 Scottish "No" voters voted that way because EU membership was more important to them than UK membership. There's no evidence for it and it's a completely impotent argument to use for independence given that an independent Scotland would still be outside the EU.
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;51955868]Pfft. Tell that to the Republic of Ireland.[/QUOTE] "From the 1920s Ireland had high trade barriers such as high tariffs, particularly during the Economic War with Britain in the 1930s, and a policy of import substitution. During the 1950s, 400,000 people emigrated from Ireland.[31] It became increasingly clear that economic nationalism was unsustainable. While other European countries enjoyed fast growth, Ireland suffered economic stagnation.[31] The policy changes were drawn together in Economic Development, an official paper published in 1958 that advocated free trade, foreign investment, and growth rather than fiscal restraint as the prime objective of economic management.[31] In the 1970s, the population increased by 15% and national income increased at an annual rate of about 4%. Employment increased by around 1% per year, but the state sector amounted to a large part of that. Public sector employment was a third of the total workforce by 1980. Budget deficits and public debt increased, leading to the crisis in the 1980s.[31] During the 1980s, underlying economic problems became pronounced. Middle income workers were taxed 60% of their marginal income,[32] unemployment had risen to 20%, annual overseas emigration reached over 1% of population, and public deficits reached 15% of GDP." "The Free State had the advantage, not possessed by Northern Ireland, of fiscal independence but the violence and disruption of the years 1919-1923 had caused a great deal of economic damage. As a result of the Civil War of 1922-23, the Free State started out with a very serious budget deficit, which was not fully cleared until 1931" [QUOTE=Sobotnik;51955888]well, yeah it's not like it can't be done can it?[/QUOTE] Well yeah, sure, it can be done. It probably won't end well, though.
As a person of Northern Irish and Scottish parentage born in England, At this point I simply don't know whats gonna happen and I largely no longer give a shit cause thanks to this fucking goverment I got enough to worry about these days, but I do love the UK the country and heritage I belong too warts and all and I harbour no ill will to the general public even when shit like Brexit happens. But im fucking angered beyond belief at what all the people in charge are doing to the UK, that's the SNP, Tories and Labour and every other self serving fucker in goverment. Far as im concerned they've all played their part in this toxic mess, creating / allowing / fabricating divides amoungst us all to further their own gains at the expense of everything and everyone and they simply don't give a flying toss because "Fuck you, got mine" is rife. Pretty fucking sick of it all and i'll be fucking distraught if the UK gets torn apart over everything going on but it's hard to see how this can be turned around.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51955862] Not sure whether they should do that but considering the attitudes of people in England vs the attitudes of the Scottish I think the Scottish would be much better off politically if they were not in the UK.[/QUOTE] Scottish people broadly have the same values as people in England: people from Glasgow think the same as people in Manchester; people at St. Andrews think the same as people at Oxford etc. Don't be blinded by the SNP and assume that everyone thinks like they do. For example, [B]more people in Scotland voted to stay in the UK than voted to stay in the EU[/B] [media]https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/841324561656344576[/media] The Scottish attitude survey is coming out on Wednesday, check that out if you don't believe me. [editline]13th March 2017[/editline] Also, if the Borders vote to remain part of the UK (like the did last time) does that mean they can rejoin the UK and leave the rest of Scotland to become independent?
[QUOTE=The mouse;51955893]There's no evidence for it and it's a completely impotent argument to use for independence given that an independent Scotland would still be outside the EU.[/QUOTE] scotland is going to be outside of the EU regardless though there's nothing to lose
I'm all for another referendum and I am for independence but I do hope it's not going to be like a little over 50% and we throw ourselves into it. I've posted a lot about the fact that the UK choosing to leave the EU on such a small percentage amount is really dumb. I hope that Scotland bears that in mind but I',m not sure that I can trust nationalistic feeling not to get in the way.
[QUOTE=David29;51955896]"From the 1920s Ireland had high trade barriers such as high tariffs, particularly during the Economic War with Britain in the 1930s, and a policy of import substitution. During the 1950s, 400,000 people emigrated from Ireland.[31] It became increasingly clear that economic nationalism was unsustainable. While other European countries enjoyed fast growth, Ireland suffered economic stagnation.[31] The policy changes were drawn together in Economic Development, an official paper published in 1958 that advocated free trade, foreign investment, and growth rather than fiscal restraint as the prime objective of economic management.[31] In the 1970s, the population increased by 15% and national income increased at an annual rate of about 4%. Employment increased by around 1% per year, but the state sector amounted to a large part of that. Public sector employment was a third of the total workforce by 1980. Budget deficits and public debt increased, leading to the crisis in the 1980s.[31] During the 1980s, underlying economic problems became pronounced. Middle income workers were taxed 60% of their marginal income,[32] unemployment had risen to 20%, annual overseas emigration reached over 1% of population, and public deficits reached 15% of GDP." "The Free State had the advantage, not possessed by Northern Ireland, of fiscal independence but the violence and disruption of the years 1919-1923 had caused a great deal of economic damage. As a result of the Civil War of 1922-23, the Free State started out with a very serious budget deficit, which was not fully cleared until 1931" Well yeah, sure, it can be done. It probably won't end well, though.[/QUOTE] You cannot in any way compare modern Scotland to the Irish state that existed from the 1920s to the late 50s. I, as an Irish patriot, am completely willing to admit there were a lot of backwardness in the country, caused not by our independence but by issues stemming from our conservative outlook at the time and our political leaders. The first decade of independence, however, did see progress - the very fact the Irish Free State survived and remained a democracy after 7 years of bloodshed, two of which was spent with Irish people killing each other, is a miracle. The conservatism and pro-Catholic Church policies following by Fianna Fail and De Valera to be sure caused suffering and was backwards economically. But it was part of a necessary process to go through to ensure our later freedom; the political decisions made, particularly around the 1937 Constitution, ensured the Irish Free State would become a republic. It also ensured we would not fight in the Second World War and would not endue the huge suffering of other countries, which did somewhat help us (though it did have political costings in the end). Besides, after the 1960s Ireland DID become a very developed country and became a place of opportunity (though there was still large emigration depending on the economy), and the Ireland of today is a very different place. Irish independence has worked, one hundred percent. Why can't Scottish independence work when they already have much more advantages than we had when we became independent...?
[QUOTE=David29;51955492]There is nothing that is logical about Scottish independence. I cannot think of even one thing.[/QUOTE] Britain being like "If you leave the UK, you can't stay in the EU." and then shortly after the vote, beginning the process for leaving the EU. It seems like Britain is just jerking Scotland around nowadays, although maybe it was always that way. It's easy to see why people would be unhappy.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51955862]We in Ireland managed it. I think the Scottish can do it. It would be painful but it's possible specially since they would be in the EU. Not sure whether they should do that but considering the attitudes of people in England vs the attitudes of the Scottish I think the Scottish would be much better off politically if they were not in the UK.[/QUOTE] Ireland is fully capable of sustaining itself as it is a part of the EU already, Scotland owes the UK money for the incentives England and other countries in the UK give them. Their deficit is rather large and oil/whiskey won't get them out of it. Ireland has their shit together, Scotland has Sturgeon... It worries me because I know the state of Scotland living here, it isn't good there are no jobs and there isn't enough of an economy to sustain itself. I read that the Scotland has to pay £15 billion on social spending which they themselves do not pay for, the UK helps with that. Is the EU just going to go and pay?
People have the right to self-determination if they so choose but Scotland EU folk knew well in advance that Cameron would hold a referendum on leaving/staying in the EU in 2013. The Scottish Independence vote was in 2014. Why didn't they choose to leave then if they knew there was a chance of losing the EU Referendum? Why not ask for a second election if they were so concerned about leaving the EU to get a party that wouldn't submit an EU Referendum in power? In essence they blew it.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51956138]You cannot in any way compare modern Scotland to the Irish state that existed from the 1920s to the late 50s. I, as an Irish patriot, am completely willing to admit there were a lot of backwardness in the country, caused not by our independence but by issues stemming from our conservative outlook at the time and our political leaders. The first decade of independence, however, did see progress - the very fact the Irish Free State survived and remained a democracy after 7 years of bloodshed, two of which was spent with Irish people killing each other, is a miracle. The conservatism and pro-Catholic Church policies following by Fianna Fail and De Valera to be sure caused suffering and was backwards economically. But it was part of a necessary process to go through to ensure our later freedom; the political decisions made, particularly around the 1937 Constitution, ensured the Irish Free State would become a republic. It also ensured we would not fight in the Second World War and would not endue the huge suffering of other countries, which did somewhat help us (though it did have political costings in the end). Besides, after the 1960s Ireland DID become a very developed country and became a place of opportunity (though there was still large emigration depending on the economy), and the Ireland of today is a very different place. Irish independence has worked, one hundred percent. Why can't Scottish independence work when they already have much more advantages than we had when we became independent...?[/QUOTE] Don't in one post try to use Ireland as an example of how an independent country can 'succeed' and then in another post say that Ireland and Scotland aren't comparable. You're massively contradicting yourself.
[QUOTE=David29;51957957]Don't in one post try to use Ireland as an example of how an independent country can 'succeed' and then in another post say that Ireland and Scotland aren't comparable. You're massively contradicting yourself.[/QUOTE] hes saying 1920s Ireland isn't comparable to modern Scotland his point is that 1: Ireland managed to succeed in spite of it all, and 2: Scotland has many more advantages when it comes to independence (the incomparable aspect) than Ireland did when she went independent
[QUOTE=TheCrown;51956975]People have the right to self-determination if they so choose but Scotland EU folk knew well in advance that Cameron would hold a referendum on leaving/staying in the EU in 2013. The Scottish Independence vote was in 2014. Why didn't they choose to leave then if they knew there was a chance of losing the EU Referendum? Why not ask for a second election if they were so concerned about leaving the EU to get a party that wouldn't submit an EU Referendum in power? In essence they blew it.[/QUOTE] IDK it's something I mentioned before, something to do with the No campaign saying Scotland would have to leave the European Union if they left (true statement). I don't know how reliable the argument is considering the country new in advance a EU referendum for the UK would happen. [QUOTE=Mythman;51955918]Scottish people broadly have the same values as people in England: people from Glasgow think the same as people in Manchester; people at St. Andrews think the same as people at Oxford etc. Don't be blinded by the SNP and assume that everyone thinks like they do. For example, [B]more people in Scotland voted to stay in the UK than voted to stay in the EU[/B] [media]https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/841324561656344576[/media] The Scottish attitude survey is coming out on Wednesday, check that out if you don't believe me. [editline]13th March 2017[/editline] Also, if the Borders vote to remain part of the UK (like the did last time) does that mean they can rejoin the UK and leave the rest of Scotland to become independent?[/QUOTE] SNP intentionally trying to drive the political message into a 'us vs them' scenario AKA - the English vs the Scottish again. The party would love it if the England just ended up becoming xenophobic towards Scotland. It's why Sturgeon constantly tries to spark the flames. Honestly I think the 'we were promised EU stay, it's the reason we only voted to stay in' is a lie parroted on SH -- so some figures would be great.
[QUOTE=David29;51957957]Don't in one post try to use Ireland as an example of how an independent country can 'succeed' and then in another post say that Ireland and Scotland aren't comparable. You're massively contradicting yourself.[/QUOTE] Dont try to compare 1920s Ireland to modern Scotland then!
[url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-nicola-sturgeon-scottish-independence-second-referendum-a7628491.html[/url] Looks like May is going to block it until after Brexit.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51958109]Dont try to compare 1920s Ireland to modern Scotland then![/QUOTE] What the hell? You were the first one to do that! Either that or you're saying Scotland's position immediately post independence is completely comparable to Ireland's position 80+ years after independence, which is just stupid.
[QUOTE=David29;51958194]What the hell? You were the first one to do that! Either that or you're saying Scotland's position immediately post independence is completely comparable to Ireland's position 80+ years after independence, which is just stupid.[/QUOTE] or alternatively he's trying to demonstrate that a small nation recently garnering independence can become a prosperous nation, and that your counter-points drawing on [I]historically Irish[/I] problems do not apply to Scotland in 2017 it's extremely childish to think that because a comparison is being made, it means that you have to compare all factors rather than the ones that are actually relevant to the nation being discussed the point being made is that small nations, in the age we live in, can actually be extremely prosperous (ireland has grown considerably due to the expansion of the tech sector), and that Scotland could very easily be fine
So if the PM continues to patronise Sturgeon and the SNP to the point of there being personal bad blood, and decides to block the referendum, what's to stop Sturgeon invoking Article 1 of the UN Charter - the right to self-determination? Given the UK has already invoked Article 1 at the UN before, and over a much smaller issue of around 1500 people, I don't see how the Government could ignore it.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51958247]or alternatively he's trying to demonstrate that a small nation recently garnering independence can become a prosperous nation, and that your counter-points drawing on [I]historically Irish[/I] problems do not apply to Scotland in 2017 it's extremely childish to think that because a comparison is being made, it means that you have to compare all factors rather than the ones that are actually relevant to the nation being discussed the point being made is that small nations, in the age we live in, can actually be extremely prosperous (ireland has grown considerably due to the expansion of the tech sector), and that Scotland could very easily be fine[/QUOTE] No, it's childish to simply ignore past economic problems that occurred after Irish independence and dismiss them simply because they didn't happen in 2017.
[QUOTE=David29;51958343]No, it's childish to simply ignore past economic problems that occurred after Irish independence and dismiss them simply because they didn't happen in 2017.[/QUOTE] You do realise those economic problems were largely down to the fact that Ireland was an extremely poor place, undeveloped and backwards place AND we had gone through seven years of constant warfare that destroyed our homes, businesses and land, along with many of our best and brightest, right? We were a small farming nation treated poorly by the UK, mostly seen as a place to exploit. Winning our freedom violently came at a huge cost to us but I see it as clearly worth it. I guarantee you this; we would still be in that same state if we were in the UK. Those conditions are not comparable to Scotland today that seeks to leave peacefully through a few years of negotiation. It's not comparable, in the slightest. EDIT: not to mention the Scottish if they leave would get into the EU and would be able to seek help from them. Plus the fact America would want to invest in it if it adopted the Euro, etc... The conditions aren't comparable.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51958456]You do realise those economic problems were largely down to the fact that Ireland was an extremely poor place, undeveloped and backwards place AND we had gone through seven years of constant warfare that destroyed our homes, businesses and land, along with many of our best and brightest, right? We were a small farming nation treated poorly by the UK, mostly seen as a place to exploit. Winning our freedom violently came at a huge cost to us but I see it as clearly worth it. I guarantee you this; we would still be in that same state if we were in the UK. Those conditions are not comparable to Scotland today that seeks to leave peacefully through a few years of negotiation. It's not comparable, in the slightest. EDIT: not to mention the Scottish if they leave would get into the EU and would be able to seek help from them. Plus the fact America would want to invest in it if it adopted the Euro, etc... The conditions aren't comparable.[/QUOTE] Fine. Then you retract your attempt to use Ireland as example of how Scotland will come out of this completely fine?
Is this the disintegration of the last holdout of the british empire?
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