Defibrillator not used because of hairy chest on plane, man dies.
63 replies, posted
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[QUOTE=Tasm;45845890]The most a hairy chest can do is cause burns to the patient from the defibrillator pads. This is actually grounds to sue if the CPR is done and causes burns (A doctor at my hospital I work at has actually been SUCCESSFULLY sued for this because he only cleared most hair and the patient got mild burns, after just saving the man's life).[/QUOTE]
Wow that's retarded. A complete damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;45845963]Wow that's retarded. A complete damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.[/QUOTE]
If you're in the medical field and you assume everyone's an asshole and cut off options while saving lives just because you're avoiding petty lawsuits, you shouldn't be in the medical field. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet to do the right thing
[QUOTE=Funion;45846321]If you're in the medical field and you assume everyone's an asshole and cut off options while saving lives just because you're avoiding petty lawsuits, you shouldn't be in the medical field. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet to do the right thing[/QUOTE]
In a perfect world
Well this makes me glad I can't grow chest hair.
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;45844691]I wonder if the flight attendant actually tried and the defibrillator didn't find a shockable pulse and so wouldn't shock him and the flight attendant wasn't properly trained to recognize that AEDs look for a shockable pulse.[/QUOTE]
To be honest this makes most sense, I assume (not fully read the article so forgive me if its mentioned) that a plane doesn't carry a "real" defib and as such they cannot just shock people for the fun of it.
This is the problem with years of people being brainwashed by films and TV shows that a defib is always the answer. (Its one of the things I [I]really[/I] liked about ER; they made an effort to make it clear on screen that its not the answer always)
[QUOTE=AK'z;45844381]they must have some kind of cheapo razor...
Defibs must include those too.[/QUOTE]
On a plane? Where have you been since 9/11?
[QUOTE=Funion;45846321]If you're in the medical field and you assume everyone's an asshole and cut off options while saving lives just because you're avoiding petty lawsuits, you shouldn't be in the medical field. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet to do the right thing[/QUOTE]
Luckily hospitals pretty much cop lawsuits on the chin on behalf of doctors who were doing their damn best. Also it's not fair to sit on a high horse and tell anyone they shouldn't be in a profession just because they don't want a lawsuit filed against them that could potentially ruin their life and only source of income. I'm not saying sitting back and letting someone die because it's risky is OK, because there truly are some rare scenarios where the options really do need to be weighed up.
And it's true, sometimes you need to assume people are assholes otherwise you're going to be in a mess. Covering your ass is sadly part of being in the industry, due to negligence claims for some of the most bullshit things.
CPR doesn't save lives, CPR just prolongs life for the chance to get to/a defibrillator/Doctor/Paramedic. So even if the defibrillator wouldn't of worked because of his hair. CPR surely wasn't going to work.
The media needs to stop portraying CPR as some sort of miracle cure that as long as you keep doing it the person will somehow magically get better. Its literally just helping the heart pump blood through the body for those precocious few minutes. They also need to stop showing that CPR is just nice and clean, moving his chest slightly up and down. If your doing it right you will probably be breaking some ribs.
Of course, if you are ever in a situation where you need to preform CPR, do it anyway because there is always those miracles.
I played battlefield guys, I'm a perfectly licensed doctor.
As long as the body is somewhat intact, no matter what killed the person, a defibrillator [B]will[/B] save them.
Good CPR makes people's sternums squishy. It's gross
Some of the security restrictions on planes are funny when it comes to medical stuff.
A friend of my dads (doctor) was on a transcontinental flight when some dude fell ill with the flu and passed out in the aisle on his way back from the lavatory. Turned out he was super dehydrated and not feeling well, so the doc offered to give him an IV and get him at least rehydrated real quick-like.
As he was putting the IV in some huuuuuge bald dude came and just watched him put the IV in, and when it was done huge muscleman went back and peacefully sat in his seat. He thinks it was an air marshal
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45847314]I played battlefield guys, I'm a perfectly licensed doctor.
As long as the body is somewhat intact, no matter what killed the person, a defibrillator [B]will[/B] save them.[/QUOTE]
unless they're already alive, then it'll kill them
then you can just revive them again of course!
Defib kits are supposed to come with a razor for this very purpose
Does anyone actually know if it is possible that razors are omitted from defibrillator kits on planes because of a security risk?
Also the article is a bit vague, was it the flight attendant the wife had talked to that was trying to help the person or someone else, could the flight attendant the wife talked to have misunderstood why the defibrillator wasn't used?
Not going to place blame on anyone just yet I think. The details are just too vague.
[QUOTE=Mr.Goodcat;45847279]CPR doesn't save lives, CPR just prolongs life for the chance to get to/a defibrillator/Doctor/Paramedic. So even if the defibrillator wouldn't of worked because of his hair. CPR surely wasn't going to work.
The media needs to stop portraying CPR as some sort of miracle cure that as long as you keep doing it the person will somehow magically get better. Its literally just helping the heart pump blood through the body for those precocious few minutes. They also need to stop showing that CPR is just nice and clean, moving his chest slightly up and down. If your doing it right you will probably be breaking some ribs.
Of course, if you are ever in a situation where you need to preform CPR, do it anyway because there is always those miracles.[/QUOTE]
Most of the time, CPR even when done by non-paramedics improves chances of surviving by a considerable amount.
And when properly done by professionals, it's not just a few minutes, it can be done for much, much longer.
There is return of spontaneous circulation sometimes though, which obviously means the heart starts pumping again. CPR and defibrillation can increase the chances of that happening. When this happens after resuscitation efforts have ended, it's referred to as the Lazarus phenomenon.
I don't have the best info on this stuff myself, but since my bro used to be a paramedic he's explained a lot of shit.
Although if you've gone asystolic you're pretty much gone, unless you went into asystole out of nowhere, but I don't think that really happens, ever.
Earlier this month I went to the ER since I thought I was having heart troubles. They were in a hurry, and put the EKG stickers on me. Once they were to get a reading, they said "we aren't getting a reading, the hair is blocking it" and had to re-apply new stickers while actually shaving the spots. I had a fun time removing them all. Seems like having a hairy chest is pretty dangerous apparently.
[QUOTE=Saturn V;45847972]Most of the time, CPR even when done by non-paramedics improves chances of surviving by a considerable amount.[/QUOTE]
Um, 'most' of the time...'improves' chances...by a 'considerable' amount. That sounds suspiciously like saying "well, it's better than nothing". My point being that no, something is not better than nothing in all cases. It may turn out that the defib would not have helped this guy at all, in which case hooking it up to him and giving him a jolt would NOT have been better than nothing. It would have just been a different way of doing nothing.
In the article it says the wife said it was 'too late' to use the razor/scissors to cut his hair. That's an interesting remark to me because it implies this guy was dead and she just wanted them to zap him on the off chance that it would resurrect him.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;45844393]"My husband is dying from a heart attack, help!"
"his chest is too hairy to use the defibrilator"
"Well can we at least try? Its either that or he might pass away"
"... no"[/QUOTE]
Actually razors are usually included in AED kits, which I assume they have on planes. It's pretty standard procedure to shave the victim before applying the Defibrillator if his chest is too hairy.
It actually guides you step by step on what to do, a halfwit could save a person with an AED.
[QUOTE=bord2tears;45844692]Facepunch, M.D.[/QUOTE]
People with medical training go online too, you know.
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;45848117]Um, 'most' of the time...'improves' chances...by a 'considerable' amount. That sounds suspiciously like saying "well, it's better than nothing". My point being that no, something is not better than nothing in all cases. It may turn out that the defib would not have helped this guy at all, in which case hooking it up to him and giving him a jolt would NOT have been better than nothing. It would have just been a different way of doing nothing.
In the article it says the wife said it was 'too late' to use the razor/scissors to cut his hair. That's an interesting remark to me because it implies this guy was dead and she just wanted them to zap him on the off chance that it would resurrect him.[/QUOTE]
Irreversible brain damage doesn't really start happening before 4-5 minutes or something.
If you start performing effective CPR to get blood flowing and someone providing oxygen you are giving the guy pretty good chances.
I'm not too well knowledged with how exactly you unfuck a heart attack situation, but since if I remember correctly, it's caused by heart muscles not getting enough oxygen and limiting the heart's ability to pump blood, I don't think defibrillation would do too much compared to cardiac arrest which involves fibrillation.
But the point is, if your heart is fucking up, CPR is an absolute must if you want even the slightest chance of surviving. The guy's chances were pretty slim though, considering he was on a plane.
[QUOTE=LarparNar;45847960]Does anyone actually know if it is possible that razors are omitted from defibrillator kits on planes because of a security risk?
[/QUOTE]
I just did some very quick and simple googling to see if I could find out anything about this, all I could find are companies selling "aviation AED packs" which all seem to include razors. Maybe this is common sense prevailing for once..
(Also who even knows that a plane carries an AED let alone it has a shitty safety razor in it)
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;45848117]Um, 'most' of the time...'improves' chances...by a 'considerable' amount. That sounds suspiciously like saying "well, it's better than nothing". My point being that no, something is not better than nothing in all cases. It may turn out that the defib would not have helped this guy at all, in which case hooking it up to him and giving him a jolt would NOT have been better than nothing. It would have just been a different way of doing nothing.
In the article it says the wife said it was 'too late' to use the razor/scissors to cut his hair. That's an interesting remark to me because it implies this guy was dead and she just wanted them to zap him on the off chance that it would resurrect him.[/QUOTE]
Have you taken any first aid courses? Have you done any work in the medical field?
I'm certified in operational first aid class 1, I haven't had the displeasure of performing a defib myself, but I do know that it is actually better than nothing. Almost all, if not every defib kit i've ever seen and touched(and I ask to inspect all of them whenever I work on any site because I'm legally obligated to perform immediate medical work, so I might as well be familiar with every unit around) and they all come with razors because mens chests are generally hairy enough to stop the effectiveness of it. Why in this case they did not is beyond me. But even still, there is a chance of that shock penetrating through the chest hair and doing it's thing anyways.
[editline]30th August 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Saturn V;45848235]Irreversible brain damage doesn't really start happening before 4-5 minutes or something.
If you start performing effective CPR to get blood flowing and someone providing oxygen you are giving the guy pretty good chances.
I'm not too well knowledged with how exactly you unfuck a heart attack situation, but since if I remember correctly, it's caused by heart muscles not getting enough oxygen and limiting the heart's ability to pump blood, I don't think defibrillation would do too much compared to cardiac arrest which involves fibrillation.
But the point is, if your heart is fucking up, CPR is an absolute must if you want even the slightest chance of surviving. The guy's chances were pretty slim though, considering he was on a plane.[/QUOTE]
Someone on that crew should have had an operational first aid license and been performing CPR(though this may be difficult in some transnational flights as there are some different standards of certification and different procedures in place in some areas) and extended his life for some time. CPR when done properly helps artificially circulate the blood through manual compression of the heart, it can, and sometimes is performed for extended periods of time ranging well beyond what we would expect to cause brain damage.
I've been instructed in my courses to continue doing CPR in the event of a heart attack for the entire length of time it would take an ambulance to get to me, and seeing as calling 911 is the first step in the process, that's entirely dependant on how long the ambulance takes, so it can be up to 20 minutes that you are supposed to continue this. You're also supposed to grab a person and tell them how to perform CPR whilst you are performing it so you can take turns and not exhaust yourself and continue a rythmic pumping. There is rarely an event where mouth to mouth CPR occurs anymore, it's not a safe and efficient method of doing it and most first aid kits come with some form of hand operated pump to fill the lungs with oxygen, or at least a breath mask to prevent direct transfer of pathogens.
[editline]30th August 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jsm;45848444]I just did some very quick and simple googling to see if I could find out anything about this, all I could find are companies selling "aviation AED packs" which all seem to include razors. Maybe this is common sense prevailing for once..
(Also who even knows that a plane carries an AED let alone it has a shitty safety razor in it)[/QUOTE]
I believe they would be mandated(I'm going out on a limb a bit here, but at least canadian companies would insist on this) to have a operational first aid kit as well as a defib kit. They're really quite small, compact, and mass produced today.
shaving saves lives
All planes are legally required to carry first aid kits, which contain scissors, syringes, needles, etc., the AED kit should have included a razor. It's not a security threat, no one is going to break into the damn AED to take a shaving razor and hijack the plane. Most AED stations have an alarm that goes off if you open it.
[editline]30th August 2014[/editline]
My mom is a flight attendant, she's had to use an AED on the plane before. It sucks because most of the time an AED is used, it doesn't work.
The way the title was worded makes it sound like the plane had the hairy chest.
Most AEDs come with a second set of pads, pediatric pads, and razors. If you have a razor, awesome shave them, if you dont, you have a pediatric pad, waste that pad by using it to rip the hair off, same with a spare set of pads.
source: Im a corpsman
[editline]31st August 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Saturn V;45848235]
I'm not too well knowledged with how exactly you unfuck a heart attack situation, but since if I remember correctly, it's caused by heart muscles not getting enough oxygen and limiting the heart's ability to pump blood, I don't think defibrillation would do too much compared to cardiac arrest which involves fibrillation.
[/QUOTE]
Nitro, asprin, atropine, and a cath lab. Nitro dilates the vessels, asprin thins the blood, atropine strengthens the heart/increases cardiac output(funny thing the use of atropine is questionable and is being removed in some treatment protocols), cath lab for placing a stent in the artery affected to offer a more patent artery. CABG surgery to create an alternate route for the vessel. The drugs and CPR are just used to help buy time to get you into an actual cath lab or OR. The less ischemic the heart muscles get the better, proper CPR helps slow down that process, which in turns creates a larger window to help save heart tissue, and also provides a bigger window to have an actual shock-able rhythm.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;45847241]On a plane? Where have you been since 9/11?[/QUOTE]
You can have small swiss army knives and shit now
[QUOTE=Tasm;45847259]Luckily hospitals pretty much cop lawsuits on the chin on behalf of doctors who were doing their damn best. Also it's not fair to sit on a high horse and tell anyone they shouldn't be in a profession just because they don't want a lawsuit filed against them that could potentially ruin their life and only source of income. I'm not saying sitting back and letting someone die because it's risky is OK, because there truly are some rare scenarios where the options really do need to be weighed up.
And it's true, sometimes you need to assume people are assholes otherwise you're going to be in a mess. Covering your ass is sadly part of being in the industry, due to negligence claims for some of the most bullshit things.[/QUOTE]
I'm not trying to sit on a high horse about anything, firefighting is going to be my career. I can see what you are saying about covering your ass, but it certainly shouldn't be the first thing on your mind when you're working on someone. (Unless you're a doctor or brain surgeon or something that gets non emergency operations)
[QUOTE=Jsm;45848444]
(Also who even knows that a plane carries an AED let alone it has a shitty safety razor in it)[/QUOTE]
That should be common knowledge :v:
I mean they teach that in school.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;45847241]On a plane? Where have you been since 9/11?[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure [URL="http://emsstuff.com/disposable-aed-prep-razor.html"]this[/URL] is considered a "safety razor".
[img]http://i.imgur.com/HtlBZgP.png[/img]
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