Dutch alcoholic, 41, chooses lethal injection to end 'unbearable' life
56 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469598]That is more comforting to hear but it's still an extremely difficult ethical and moral thing.
How many assisted suicides are there in the Netherlands?[/QUOTE]
In 2014, 5.306 assisted suicides were performed.
Breakdown by disease:
Dementia: 81
Psychiatric: 41
Combination of diseases caused by old age: 257
Cancer: 3888
Other: 1039
The "other" category consists of people with physical afflictions like ALS.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51469623]Serious question here, genuine curiosity.
If you don't want to prolong anyone's suffering and they've run out of hope to improve things, where exactly is the concern in giving someone the right to go out on their own terms? As I said and as has been posted above, euthanasia is not given out like candy, this is a thorough, well thought out process. Multiple people need to come to the exact conclusion where keeping on living is the worse option the patient has.[/QUOTE]
Because it is so final?
I'm aware it is not an easily gotten thing and that it has huge safety locks around it. It is such a horrendously complex thing though.
I guess I'm in no position to speak. I admit I have mental issues myself so I might not be logical about it.
[editline]3rd December 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=FalconKrunch;51469639]In 2014, 5.306 assisted suicides were performed.
Breakdown by disease:
Dementia: 81
Psychiatric: 41
Combination of diseases caused by old age: 257
Cancer: 3888
Other: 1039
The "other" category consists of people with physical afflictions like ALS.[/QUOTE]
Ah, so in the vast majority of cases it was for extreme physical pain and life threatening conditions.
I don't have as much concerns then, thanks.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469642]Because it is so final?
I'm aware it is not an easily gotten thing and that it has huge safety locks around it. It is such a horrendously complex thing though.[/QUOTE]
What if you're in a situation that's basically final, the great overarching question that hangs over the list posted before that [I]needs[/I] to be answered with a 'yes' before someone can be euthanised? Is it really that ethical to deny someone the option of stepping into the great beyond on their own terms?
[QUOTE=St33m;51468021]Well better a legal injection than traumatizing someone by jumping in front of a train or truck.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, let's try to hide the fact that some people commit suicide. Better to brush it all under the rug.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51469660]What if you're in a situation that's basically final, the great overarching question that hangs over the list posted before that [I]needs[/I] to be answered with a 'yes' before someone can be euthanised? Is it really that ethical to deny someone the option of stepping into the great beyond on their own terms?[/QUOTE]
I can't answer that, and perhaps that means I am wrong.
I will have to think about it. I hope I have not appeared disingenuous at any point.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469669]I can't answer that, and perhaps that means I am wrong.
I will have to think about it. I hope I have not appeared disingenuous at any point.[/QUOTE]
Let's chalk it up to cultural differences and leave it there. We've had legal euthanasia for 14 years and a protocol set for children for 12 years while Ireland is still one of many, [I]many[/I] places where it's illegal. For most Dutch people, it's either stopped being an issue or never was to begin with. Still, it's a tricky issue nonetheless and it's important to realize it might not be as clear-cut for others.
So no, no disingenuousness here. Not when you yourself admit you can be wrong or unqualified to talk about it.
[QUOTE=matt000024;51469667]Yeah, let's try to hide the fact that some people commit suicide. Better to brush it all under the rug.[/QUOTE]
What the fuck are you saying with this exactly?
There's a lot more that was going on with this guy than alcoholism for two doctors to have agreed that euthanasia was the way out. Turning to alcohol so heavily that addiction happens is the symptom of larger underlying issues. The article does mention his diary and the legitimately distressing contents of it.
I never understood being against assisted suicide. If someone really wants to commit suicide, they will. If it's illegal, they'll just do it un-assisted. If assisted suicide is available, at least they go down this route where they will speak to doctors who will hopefully talk them out of it or not approve it and send them down the appropriate path. There's literally no benefit to it being illegal, if it's illegal people who want to end their life will just think "well there's no other way to do this so fuck it" and just jump in front of a train.
I personally think people who believe assisted suicide should be illegal are people that have never felt suicidal themselves and have no idea what these people go through.
You must have been ignoring my posts completely then, considering I've stated that I have been suicidal quite a few times.
Don't assume.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51475489]You must have been ignoring my posts completely then, considering I've stated that I have been suicidal quite a few times.
Don't assume.[/QUOTE]
I've read your posts, and what you did was instantly have a kneejerk reaction to this thread, then backpedal and backpedal some more as people destroyed your argument with common sense.
It sucks if you've been suicidal, but it should definitely be legal, of course in the same manner that it is in the Netherlands, where two doctors have to approve it. I think that's a pretty fair system.
As it's legal in the Netherlands, for most people there it's a non-issue because it's seen as a normal thing that people should be allowed to have, as stated:
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51469699]For most Dutch people, it's either stopped being an issue or never was to begin with.[/QUOTE]
This mindset and law needs to spread to other countries. It's a human right.
I didn't realise changing my opinion based on what others posted was and having a genuine argument about it was "back-pedalling".
Would you rather have me not change my position? Or not willing to listen?
God's sake, I and Sir Whoopsalot ending our argument very cordially. What's your problem?
EDIT: how was mine even a kneejerk reaction? There were much worst posts that strawmenned other's positions instantly; I stated what I genuinely felt.
[QUOTE=djjkps2;51475547]I've read your posts, and what you did was instantly have a kneejerk reaction to this thread, then backpedal and backpedal some more as people destroyed your argument with common sense.
It sucks if you've been suicidal, but it should definitely be legal, of course in the same manner that it is in the Netherlands, where two doctors have to approve it. I think that's a pretty fair system.
As it's legal in the Netherlands, for most people there it's a non-issue because it's seen as a normal thing that people should be allowed to have, as stated:
This mindset and law needs to spread to other countries. It's a human right.[/QUOTE]
People told blackmage how assisted suicide works here. He didn't know how cautiously it is has been regulated. After they did, some of his concerns were taken away. If I didn't know how it was regulated, which is pretty normal I think (I mean why would anyone just know Dutch euthanasia law) I'd probably have the same concerns. No need to be hostile m8.
[QUOTE=djjkps2;51475547]I've read your posts, and what you did was instantly have a kneejerk reaction to this thread, then backpedal and backpedal some more as people destroyed your argument with common sense.
It sucks if you've been suicidal, but it should definitely be legal, of course in the same manner that it is in the Netherlands, where two doctors have to approve it. I think that's a pretty fair system.
As it's legal in the Netherlands, for most people there it's a non-issue because it's seen as a normal thing that people should be allowed to have, as stated:
This mindset and law needs to spread to other countries. It's a human right.[/QUOTE]
Wow way to make an ass out of yourself mate
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;51476862]Wow way to make an ass out of yourself mate[/QUOTE]
And great that you explained why I made an ass out of myself. Thanks, mate.
In any case I've given my opinion, take it as you will. I'm going to be defensive about something that's a human right, seeing people defend taking away human rights isn't nice to see.
[QUOTE=djjkps2;51479338]And great that you explained why I made an ass out of myself. Thanks, mate.
In any case I've given my opinion, take it as you will. I'm going to be defensive about something that's a human right, seeing people defend taking away human rights isn't nice to see.[/QUOTE]
I don't think he's against assisted suicide, he's just against giving everyone the option to off themselves just like that. And I agree with him on that, and so did the Dutch government, otherwise it wouldn't be so restricted.
I find it weird none of the bigger Dutch news sites are reporting on this. It seems like a case that would be rejected under our current criteria.
[QUOTE=djjkps2;51475547]I've read your posts, and what you did was instantly have a kneejerk reaction to this thread, then backpedal and backpedal some more as people destroyed your argument with common sense.[/QUOTE]
Thats called intellectual honesty and having your opinion grow as it is exposed to new ideas and facts. Why do you consider this a bad thing?
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51479530]Thats called intellectual honesty and having your opinion grow as it is exposed to new ideas and facts. Why do you consider this a bad thing?[/QUOTE]
This. Such attitudes and mentalities should be encouraged.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469377]I disagree heavily. Opening the door for assisted suicide for mental issues that can be cured is incredibly dangerous. It opens a whole can of ethical and awful issues.
I'm for assisted suicide if the patient has an incurable, highly painful illness that will kill them, but while I heavily sympathise with the issues that man was going through, I'm not sure letting him die was the right thing.[/QUOTE]
I understand where you're coming from, but the way I see it, it is said persons life, and I believe that it would also be just as immoral to force someone who clearly is living in perpetual agony to live. A person with such a problem should have the right to take a way out, unfortunately there's nothing we can do sometimes, and having a legal system euthanasia which is painless, and doesn't damage the public by allowing other forms of suicide such as jumping on train tracks or off a building etc. seems like the best option. That's just my take on it, make of it what you will.
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